Author Topic: My Dream Job  (Read 62239 times)

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Offline Codemonkey

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2013, 05:30:05 pm »
The big issue isn't your ability to learn the stuff, its the risk you pose to any company that employs you. Put yourself in their shoes, for example, a start up with fairly limited funds may not be able to afford multiple spins of a chip ($100K+ just for the mask set, plus wafer costs time debugging, longer time to market). If the chip doesn't work when it comes back from the fab, its costly to try and debug and there's only so much that can be fixed with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focused_ion_beam on a bare die to try and fault find. After that, if you can fix it with a metal layer change, its still more $$, all of which needs to be recovered on the sales of a device that may sell for just a few dollars each in an industry that is obsessed with saving costs everywhere. If it can't be fixed without a complete re-spin, you could quite literally cause the demise of the company, its just too risky for them to employ someone without proven experience.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2013, 06:15:19 pm »
OTOH the bigger companies can't affort to rely on their senior staff to work for them forever. People tend to retire and die (some skip the retirement step). So there are job oportunities where you can learn all the tricks of the trade from a senior engineer.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2013, 07:30:21 pm »
Quote
someone with true passion and endless motivation.
you may have all the passion and motivation you want, if you can't
1) design a circuit that works
2) get your hand on the tools
3) get it run in a waferfab

 you will get nowhere.

item 1 is already a biggie. you have no experience designing circuits. gather a solid 5 years of experience desiging top notch circuits that have outtanding performance.
item 2 is even bigger. Ic design tools are complex and made from pure unobtainium.. even a moderate design needs a compute farm to run the tools. your only option is to run Tanner EDA. that's as close as you are going to get.
item 3 is unobtainium unless you already work for an IC design company.

i have been working for a large IC maker for 20 years. i started in the waferfab , i understand how the chip is built layer by layer , i have done layout of IC's , i have debugged IC's using probe station , laser cutters, E-beam machines and FIB machines i can read the IC schematics, find the components on the floorplan and cut them up andprobe em.
i can identify common circuitry in ic schematics and i know what to push or pull to get certin beavior.
i have blocks of logic i designed in FPGA using verilog that have ended up in real silicon.
does that make me an Ic designer ? no. if i would be tasked with designing an opamp with a certain set of criteria i would fail miserably. i'd need a lot of help. just designing the individual transistors alone is problematic. you need to know how to create the structures and you need to know the physics of all this stuff. even very experienced ic designers f-up badly.
i can design a system to work build it and test it , but convert it to silicon ? that's a whole different can of worms.

just like someone wrote there are specialist ic designers that only do i/o structures... there are gurus that only make dac's or a/d's.... there are gurus that only make reference diodes or bandgaps.

that stuff is incredibly complex. the factors to be considered while desinging on silicon are an order of magnitude greater than desiging with standard parts on breadboard or pcb.
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Offline ShenandoahTopic starter

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2013, 07:41:01 pm »
free_electron, you made me feel much more motivated and excited, now I want to learn more.  :-+
 

Offline M. András

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2013, 08:12:54 pm »
get somehow a chance to a fab tour etc and talk to the engineers there if you are allowed. the university you are in maybe can help with that. so you can get a lok at the processes involved
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2013, 09:28:10 pm »
free_electron, you made me feel much more motivated and excited, now I want to learn more.  :-+
good !
Go follow a course in that stuff. Santa cruz university has one that will teach you the basics.

http://www.ucsc-extension.edu/programs/vlsi-engineering/schedule

http://course.ucsc-extension.edu/modules/shop/index.html?action=courseBrowse&CatalogID=118


That gives tou the basics.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2013, 09:50:52 pm »
Actually there are chip pooling services where you could have your chip produced at a reasonable cost (lets say the price of a good second hand car). You have to be patient though. They usually run a batch a few times per year. Before I got married and had no money drain I had the idea to design some digital logic chip for a hobby project and have it produced. Just for fun. Ofcourse its an insane idea but it will impress at any electronics related job interview and gives you a head start. The photo in my avatar picture is a similar insane project of mine with which I gained a huge amount of knowledge. Even though its about 10 years old the knowledge is still valuable and helped me get jobs and projects. I think the investment repaid itself at least 20 times.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ShenandoahTopic starter

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2013, 05:12:32 pm »
Always the case, when it's something comes from Academia it's too expensive, inefficient, and over complicated. Until someone like John Carmack (our software programming God) comes and invents something that shows the world how retard those IC fabrication facilities are.  :-DD

For now I will just do the mental work, study and read, design on paper, research more, and buy this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Modeling-Transistor-Electrical-Engineering/dp/0195170156/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1367021297&sr=1-2&keywords=operation+and+modeling+of+mos

Someone suggested...
 

Offline AlfBaz

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2013, 05:35:15 pm »
 

Offline ftransform

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2013, 08:40:56 pm »
I found transistor level design to be boring and transistor design/physics to be even worse. widths, lengths, doping... jesus I felt like I was a real carpenter.  :scared:
There are also like fifty billion equations that you need to know .

Maybe if I saved up money to get a chip made then I could be interested in it... I do want my own IC...
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 08:50:00 pm by ftransform »
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2013, 09:43:58 pm »
I found transistor level design to be boring and transistor design/physics to be even worse. widths, lengths, doping... jesus I felt like I was a real carpenter.  :scared:
There are also like fifty billion equations that you need to know .

Maybe if I saved up money to get a chip made then I could be interested in it... I do want my own IC...
That's what it is ! You get some sand , some contaminant (arsnic, boron, phosphorus or antimony). By creating puddles and placing them in a specific order and layer thickness and controlling the dosage you control the flow of electrons. It is what it is.

Simply gluing a vunch of ready made logic cells or blocks together is not ic design.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2013, 09:57:11 pm »
Like using C++ to write software instead of using assembly isn't programming? Even when putting a chip together from existing blocks you'll need to take thermal behaviour and power distribution into account.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jpb

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2013, 10:22:20 pm »
My first job after graduating was in Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuits (GaAs). I worked in assessment (measurements) then circuit design and modelling then moved into device physics (FETs). I then went off and started a small company with two colleagues. I enjoyed the circuit design but it was very different from VLSI design or designing complex chips at lower frequencies. The circuits in some ways were very simple, no more than 4 FETs and it was more about transmission lines, couplers, controlling parasitics. Most of the innovation was in either device physics and modelling or in process development, the circuit design role is not one in which I would have liked to have spent more than a few years. But then I'd probably feel the same if I was working in the digital circuit world as say part of a team at Intel.

I think the thing to watch out for in any such job is that you don't get stuck in a rut. I was lucky in that I got to move around and it was in a research environment so it was new and challenging. The danger is if you spend a lot of time in one role and become an expert at designing one aspect of a chip you will a.) get bored b.) find it more difficult to move job as you get more experienced but more specialised. The number of companies designing chips is pretty small and getting smaller so you may find your horizons limited. This is why I eventually switched to Computer Science because I am in the UK and the GaAs/Microwave Electronics industry just disappeared (Plessey, GEC, Marconi, Ferranti, BT Research, Thorn EMI research, and others I've forgotten - all disappeared leaving only Filtronic).
 

Offline gregariz

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2013, 11:41:58 pm »
I think the thing to watch out for in any such job is that you don't get stuck in a rut. I was lucky in that I got to move around and it was in a research environment so it was new and challenging. The danger is if you spend a lot of time in one role and become an expert at designing one aspect of a chip you will a.) get bored b.) find it more difficult to move job as you get more experienced but more specialised.

That's exactly right. Yes the sad truth is that in many tech firms, particularly the larger ones doing cutting edge stuff, there are an army of PhD's at the bottom of the power pyramid all scratching around in the dirt to be noticed. You most likely will never get promoted. IIRC TI has never had a CEO that actually came from R&D. Kind of like pharmaceutical companies and chemical companies. Very few executives in those companies have a basic research background and employees sit at the bench until they die. There basically are no jobs available except in a large stultifying company. Small semiconductor companies are few and far between.

Any job simply sucks after a while of doing the same crap over and over and having little interaction with either customers or real people.  And then the problem happens when you want to move on... there are so few employers, and you have been exposed to so few elements of the business that if you do get laid off you will probably be either long term unemployed or have to do something else. One of my friends retrained as a nurse :P

My advice is make sure you are doing some bread and butter broad-based design work in your own time on the side so that when you do get sick of it you actually do have skillset and some products you can point to that will land you another job.

 

Offline nctnico

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2013, 12:33:13 am »
In general there are a couple of ways your career can go:
1)You keep your knowledge up to date and keep excelling at your job until your retirement IF your boss still needs what you do.
2)You keep your knowledge up to date and keep excelling at your job and start as a consultant because your boss doesn't need you or you can make more money as a consultant anyway.
3)You have management and/or commercial skills so you climb up the tree of corporate incompetence. Over the years I've pushed some junior engineers into commercial positions and  they are doing better than me :wtf:
4)You can't keep up and end up being fired or parked in a shitty job like the IT help desk or building maintenance.

The real challenge with numbers 1 an 2 is that its hard to tell which kind of knowledge retains its value. OTOH companies need a limited number of experts in certain areas.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 12:37:19 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline AlfBaz

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2013, 01:27:03 am »
@ nctnico
1 to 3 are things you should do. 4 however, is something that can happen to you and should be in a separate list that can be ad infinitum
 

Offline ShenandoahTopic starter

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Offline free_electron

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2013, 10:47:31 am »
Like using C++ to write software instead of using assembly isn't programming? Even when putting a chip together from existing blocks you'll need to take thermal behaviour and power distribution into account.
Bad analogy.
A correct analogy would be : i write code , i design instruction sets.
Or : i write code in c, i make c compilers...

Designing an efficient instruction set is an art in itself.

We postprocess many ASIC designs. In chip design there are four big areas (apart from the actual fab)

Process technology : the chemistry and physics of ic design. What chemicals do we need in what quantity and how big of an area do we need to create or how thick must the layer be to make a transistor that can do do 1ghz at 20 volt breakdown and 100mA current with a beta of 100. Given the doping dosage for the wafer figure it all out and come up with the optimum structure shape. Test it using waterfall , characterise the snot out of it , build the accurate spice model and stick it in the library as base element.

Library: manage the base elements and create base blocks with them. Things like logic gates , io structures , bandgaps and other references, base amplifier structures etc ...

Front-end : schematics , verilog, vhdl. Use blocks , make blocks using base elements from the library (base elements being transistors, blocks being gates or analog function blocks)

Back-end : place and route , timing closure , parasitic extraction, net drive strength analysis etc.

There is continuous interplay between these. A front end designer makes a counter in verilog , produces a netlist, simulates it using the models.. And produce the accurate model (timing) Handoff to backend.

The backend guys plonk the gates on the wafer, interconnect it and then extract parasitics and loading. They verify the actual placed system against the model delivered by the designer. If it turns out a net needs more drive strength they inject or scale buffers accordingly. If timing closure cannot be done because of something like a 5 input and not exisiting and has to be made by cascading 3 input ands they go to library and request a 5 input gate. Backend guys spit out the actual layout of the entire system , extract all parasitics and run the simulation against the model from frontend.

Front end back end interplay is very similar to designing boards using components. You design your circuit , do the placement and routing and check for emc esd and other things to create a working system. Your library group is the website of digikey or mouser. With difference that, if nobody makes a 5 input and-gate you are screwed. You'll have to have it custom built as an ASIC by a chip maker. Of course in siliconland there are much more things to account for than in pcb land. But it is similar. You are using components, you are not making components.

The real hard design work is done by the process guys. Those are the guys that come up with new technologies like finfets, 22nm, 18nm, SOI , and all that is required to actually make the chip. That is the real design work.

I have done front end , back end and library. Does that make me a chip designer .. Not really. Because i couldn't design a transistor if my life depended on it. I can layout one if you tell me how long and wide you want the gate to be ... But i dont know , for a given chemistry , to figure out how long and wide it needs to be.... That is the designers work.
I have made libraries with logic gates in 1994 for 0.5micron. They gave me the gate dimension for internal transistors and for the output stage transistors. The goal was then to make blocks that fitted on a grid (input output lie on a grid so the placer can route them) being as small as possible. Height of a block was fixed, length defined by the number of i/o needed. You also needed to provide cross channels. I created the schematics , did the layout and created the library. These were then fabbed, tested for speed and drive strength and signed off. Many a chip has been built using that library.
We had a tool called a p-cell generator. You plonk in what current and voltage you want and presto : here is your transistor. The equations behind them are specific to the chemistry , lithography , doping used for that process. These equations come from the real silicon designers.

But i still don't consider myself as silicon designer as i can't design something simple as a digital transistor (nor do i have an interest in that)

Maybe that is the destinction that can be made.
A ic designer does frontend backend and library but only a true silicon designer makes the transistors and defines the process technology.

Ic designer is within reach of everyone given strong motivation and a bit of luck.
Silicon designer .. You'll have to be ic designer first, work for a semiconductor maker for a while and learn the ropes from a bunch of greybeards there... And youll have to get their blessing before you get to spend oodles of money on machinery and consumables testing your 'process'

Very few ic makers actually design their own processes. They buy them or license them from others. It is simply too expensive to design. Companies like maxim dont have process technologies. They license them or use someones fab that can run it. Not all fabs can run all processes.
Remember when the max038 went obsolete (together with a bunch of other maxim chips) ? That was because their foundry retired the process used for those chips. Nobody in the world runs that process anymore. So game over for those.
If a device is a high flyer they will redesign for a different process. (This is called a shrink, if geometries become smaller). If it is not , they pull the plug. Unless the part is used by military or some other whackjob with lots of money then the masks, gds tape to make the mask and the process are transferred to companies like Rochester electronics.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2013, 10:48:11 am »
Open a company by yourself
Hahaaaa. Got a few billion dollar for a new waferfab ?
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Offline jpb

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2013, 11:04:28 am »
Open a company by yourself
Hahaaaa. Got a few billion dollar for a new waferfab ?
You don't have to make the chips yourself - look at ARM.

On a smaller scale, Filtronic in the UK was started by an academic from the University of Leeds (designing microwave filters) and they grew enough to buy Fujitsu's wafer fab in Darlington. Having said that they didn't make money on it and sold it to RF Micro devices (according to the company history on their web site).

On a very small scale, I and two colleagues setup a company doing contract work and selling software tools (we wrote ourselves) in the field of GaAs devices/integrated circuits. We did this for fourteen years, didn't make a lot of money (it paid our salaries but we didn't become millionaires) but it was fun. We worked for a big companies and government organizations as well as taking part in European programmes.
 

Offline ShenandoahTopic starter

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2013, 02:30:03 pm »
What's the average salary for a senior IC designer in North America, UK, Australia, Japan, Pakistan, and Iraq  :-DD?
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2013, 06:23:23 pm »
a junior ic designer (frontend, let's say a verilog coder ) begins at 80k$ a year. if you do analog it will be 100k
A senior (5 yrs+) can run up to 120k a year. Once you become staff (5+ in various fields) it climbs above 140k...
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Offline CodyShaw

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2013, 08:53:05 pm »
While I'm struggling and learning the hard way I'm very interested in getting a first time job as as an IC/chip designer. the problem is that my degree is not EE, it's in software. Is there any recommended references on this area so that I can pass an interview or a test?

If you don't have formal education in the field (some degrees have an IC design component, or it's optional) or practical experience in actually designing chips, then I think your odds of getting a job in the industry are practically zero.
IC design is not like regular component level electronics designs. Whilst you could self study it, actually applying it practically is going to cost a lot of money. It's not like you can just mock it up on a breadboard cheaply.

This is an area I want to get into after graduation, and this is also spot on.

One of my professors worked as a chip designer back in the day. The man is a genius. Very good at teaching too.

What I've been told: If you are doing analog chip design (IE, can't be automated by software and requires you to actually be competent at physics and EE), you need to think about doing some Masters/PhD work in the field before you can think about nabbing a job.
Candidate for Bachelor of Applied Science, Electrical Engineering, University of Waterloo, Waterloo, ON, Sept. 2011 – Present
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Offline ShenandoahTopic starter

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2013, 07:11:19 pm »
a junior ic designer (frontend, let's say a verilog coder ) begins at 80k$ a year. if you do analog it will be 100k
A senior (5 yrs+) can run up to 120k a year. Once you become staff (5+ in various fields) it climbs above 140k...

Pretty close to what computer programmers make, hmmm after multiply it by 0.5  |O
 

Offline ShenandoahTopic starter

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Re: My Dream Job
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2013, 07:13:23 pm »
Quote
...you need to think about doing some Masters/PhD work in the field before you can think about nabbing a job.

Naaaah I will start my own business. No need to waste time and $$$ on useless papers that will not change anything about my brain abilities.
 


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