Author Topic: Tesla Model S, Third Fire  (Read 256033 times)

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Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #575 on: December 28, 2013, 01:20:54 am »
Although that doesn't directly answer the question as Top Gear only claimed to have "worked out" that it would last 55 miles.... they never stated they had tested that.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #576 on: December 28, 2013, 03:42:12 am »
It's possible to only get 70 miles out of a Roadster if you drive at 120 mph continuously, or less than that with constant acceleration and braking. But that's unrealistic for real world driving, and that's what Tesla were upset over.

While I don't recall anyone getting upset or sue happy about this one
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #577 on: December 28, 2013, 04:25:12 am »
Debating with EV proponent is like debating with religious people.

I should spend more time on the technical forums of eevblog.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #578 on: December 28, 2013, 01:11:24 pm »
Except both sides have advantages and disadvantages and we're trying to reach a fair conclusion? Sort of like, "I think EVs are great but they do have limitations that must be considered, such as limited range."
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #579 on: December 28, 2013, 01:34:01 pm »
Debating with EV proponent is like debating with religious people.

It's because the EV technology, or better said their "fit" is very complicated.

Myself I'm a fan of technology, a fan of a cleaner future, a fan of a more wise use of the environment.  For me it's not a clean logical decision, because of the following:

 - I need more than 300 mile range, or ultra quick charging everywhere
 - Even though I live on 10 acres, in a nice big modern house, I don't have a garage.  (outdoor charging station is easy enough)
 - I'm headed 100% off the grid

Now I could buy a Tesla and use it only for local travel and keep my car and truck, but does adding another vehicle plus insurance etc really make logical sense for my needs?

Mmmm, wonder how at -10F the pack would charge?  Does it have a battery heater?

Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #580 on: December 28, 2013, 02:25:07 pm »
It does have a pack heater. The heater is only used while charging and while driving until pack has warmed up sufficiently from driving. It is not used if the car is standing.  If it is extremely cold (-20F or colder) it will heat the pack for about 5 minutes before charging.

The model S heats the coolant, I believe the roadster does the same. Nissan uses 7 or 8 dipstick heaters in the leaf.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #581 on: December 28, 2013, 02:44:41 pm »
It can charge 150 miles in 20 mins.
From what size of outlet....?
From the supercharger through teslas standard power connector.
The superchargers deliver 120 or 160 kilowatt. 284 volts up to 400 ampere.
They are using what looks like a multilam crown contact from multicontact.

If the car has twin chargers you can feed it 240 volts 80 ampere at home. That is max power for home charging
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Online EEVblog

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #582 on: December 28, 2013, 02:45:58 pm »
Debating with EV proponent is like debating with religious people.

No. EV's are real and evidence based. The only thing we "believe" is that they have a big future.
That may turn out to not be the case, but I think that's extremely unlikely.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #583 on: December 28, 2013, 02:48:25 pm »
Now I could buy a Tesla and use it only for local travel and keep my car and truck, but does adding another vehicle plus insurance etc really make logical sense for my needs?

No, it doesn't. The End.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #584 on: December 28, 2013, 02:53:39 pm »
Are EU superchargers now 160kW? I thought they were 135kW? Wonder if there's a reason they would be bigger in EU vs USA, as the USA seems like a country you'd be more likely to roadtrip in.

160kW means about 480 miles per hour charging. Which is really fast.  The pack cooling will surely be in overdrive to do that. 90kW on its own sounded like a lot.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 03:04:28 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #585 on: December 28, 2013, 03:05:18 pm »
No, it doesn't. The End.

Yeah, adding one more would make my 7th vehicle, getting a bit excessive.   :-DD

Offline zapta

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #586 on: December 28, 2013, 03:52:44 pm »
No. EV's are real and evidence based. The only thing we "believe" is that they have a big future.
That may turn out to not be the case, but I think that's extremely unlikely.

I have seen many sure projections that failed, many 'backed by science'.   

I don't mind people pursuing their believes and passions as long as they don't force it on my and do it on their own dime, but often this is not the case.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #587 on: December 28, 2013, 05:40:50 pm »
No, it doesn't. The End.

Yeah, adding one more would make my 7th vehicle, getting a bit excessive.   :-DD
Talk about a car-bon footprint
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Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #588 on: December 28, 2013, 06:44:50 pm »
No, it doesn't. The End.

Yeah, adding one more would make my 7th vehicle, getting a bit excessive.   :-DD
Talk about a car-bon footprint

I can only drive one at a time!

Offset anyhow by my ultra insulated home (R25 walls and R50 ceiling), that is soon to be off the grid on solar/wind.

Offline staxquad

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #589 on: December 28, 2013, 07:56:05 pm »
Debating with EV proponent is like debating with religious people.

It's because the EV technology, or better said their "fit" is very complicated.

Myself I'm a fan of technology, a fan of a cleaner future, a fan of a more wise use of the environment.  For me it's not a clean logical decision, because of the following:

 - I need more than 300 mile range, or ultra quick charging everywhere
 - Even though I live on 10 acres, in a nice big modern house, I don't have a garage.  (outdoor charging station is easy enough)
 - I'm headed 100% off the grid

Now I could buy a Tesla and use it only for local travel and keep my car and truck, but does adding another vehicle plus insurance etc really make logical sense for my needs?

Mmmm, wonder how at -10F the pack would charge?  Does it have a battery heater?

Jaguar used to winter test in my Northern Ontario town, -30*C and colder for weeks on end, but it looks like it's even colder in Minnesota where they are now.  A Tesla would lose significant range in cold weather, would have to be plugged in or in a heated garage to even start (everybody's car is plugged in here, if you ain't, you're not starting), but that's not Tesla's demographics, they don't need to be universal or practical, they just need a rich white collar clientele in certain climates who want another toy to add to their stable.  It's not about Tesla saving the World, it's about Tesla providing a new (subsidized) toy for the rich.   
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 08:01:11 pm by staxquad »
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Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #590 on: December 28, 2013, 08:01:10 pm »
Tesla's 2nd biggest market (out of the US) is Norway. So cold weather performance is a big concern. Average range loss is around 40% for short drives and 15% for longer drives (as battery warms up, also the coolant is recycled into the HVAC system.) That's not too bad, all considered. If you drive very long distances in such sub zero temperatures then you will experience range loss in any car.

I'm not sure if an ICE is affected badly by cold but I know you will lose grip on tyres and such and will use brakes a lot more -- just in general. I know at really cold temperatures diesel freezes. I don't know if a petrol ICE is affected, maybe as it gets colder, the pressure might fall reducing performance? Cold starting an ICE with a lead acid battery is always fun.

And it's a myth that it won't start without being plugged in... the pack heater uses about 10kW on start so you'll want to have a charged battery but that's just like saying a car won't start with an empty tank... kinda pointless.  It would be nice though to have a "depart soon" button to indicate a preheat request, that way you get full regen and power from the start. The electronics themselves will be rated to -40C like most automotive electronics.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 08:09:35 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline lemmegraphdat

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #591 on: December 28, 2013, 09:08:55 pm »
I told one of the people I work with that I will by an EV some day and he gave me the dumbest reason for not buying on that I have heard. He said it didn't make a motor noise. This dude also told me once that basically if you are not white then you are not a real American.
Start right now.
 

Offline SLJ

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #592 on: December 28, 2013, 09:49:31 pm »
Just tell him Native Americans are the real Americans.  The rest of us are immigrants or decedents of immigrants.

Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #593 on: December 28, 2013, 10:13:16 pm »
I love the whine of a good EV motor. Goodbye ICE... hello personal warp-drive spaceship?
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #594 on: December 28, 2013, 11:07:58 pm »
I'm not sure if an ICE is affected badly by cold but I know you will lose grip on tyres and such and will use brakes a lot more -- just in general. I know at really cold temperatures diesel freezes. I don't know if a petrol ICE is affected, maybe as it gets colder, the pressure might fall reducing performance? Cold starting an ICE with a lead acid battery is always fun.

Non direct injected ICE heavily choke when cold, with older throttle body injected vehicles choking up to +200%.  This "warm up" period is an emissions disaster, basically running very rich until the O2 sensors/coolant come up to temp.  Even then the cold gear oil in rear wheel drive vehicles can take 30 miles to finally warm up.  In town short driving in cold weather could easily drop ICE mileage by 30-40%.

Direct injected gas engines are much better, but still have noticeable losses.

Offline nctnico

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #595 on: December 29, 2013, 12:05:17 am »
It's possible to only get 70 miles out of a Roadster if you drive at 120 mph continuously, or less than that with constant acceleration and braking. But that's unrealistic for real world driving, and that's what Tesla were upset over.
Why would that be unrealistic? When driving through Germany I cruise around 160 to 170 km/h on the long stretches.

Quote
Are EU superchargers now 160kW? I thought they were 135kW? Wonder if there's a reason they would be bigger in EU vs USA, as the USA seems like a country you'd be more likely to roadtrip in.
If you English had adopted the Euro and build a bridge to the main land of Europe it would have been much more likely from your perspective  >:D . My wife and I take a roadtrip through Europe at least once a year. Last summer we visited 15 cities in 7 countries in 16 days.

BTW I'm told that in cold countries they have outlets in parking spots to power a standby heater in the car. This keeps the interior and oil at a reasonable temperature.

Forget about silent EVs as well. From approx 20km/h the noise of the tires is louder than the engine.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 12:15:54 am by nctnico »
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #596 on: December 29, 2013, 05:19:12 am »
Tesla's 2nd biggest market (out of the US) is Norway. So cold weather performance is a big concern. Average range loss is around 40% for short drives and 15% for longer drives (as battery warms up, also the coolant is recycled into the HVAC system.) That's not too bad, all considered. If you drive very long distances in such sub zero temperatures then you will experience range loss in any car.

I'm not sure if an ICE is affected badly by cold but I know you will lose grip on tyres and such and will use brakes a lot more -- just in general. I know at really cold temperatures diesel freezes. I don't know if a petrol ICE is affected, maybe as it gets colder, the pressure might fall reducing performance? Cold starting an ICE with a lead acid battery is always fun.

And it's a myth that it won't start without being plugged in... the pack heater uses about 10kW on start so you'll want to have a charged battery but that's just like saying a car won't start with an empty tank... kinda pointless.  It would be nice though to have a "depart soon" button to indicate a preheat request, that way you get full regen and power from the start. The electronics themselves will be rated to -40C like most automotive electronics.

Not exactly. Here os a small movie made by a norwegian tesla driver:




He loses about 20%. The Leaf loses 50% ...

The solution is to simply leave the car plugged in to wall power. This keeps the pack warm so you dont lose anything. Cars in norway are almost always equipped woth an engine block heater to avoid the fuel freezing. Parking lots in scandinavian countries typically have power outlets to plug in the engine block heaters. Standard 220 volt outlet. Plug in your tesla and limit teh current draw to a few ampere and the car will keep the battery warm. Tesla sells a special winter mode as an option. That enables this pack warmer.

When charging the pack is preconditioned and heated. If you charge a lithium cell, then cool it down you lose power. Warm it up and you get it back. The heat created by the motor and current flow is enough to keep the pack warm enough so the effect is negligible.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #597 on: December 29, 2013, 07:04:17 am »
Who says it takes 10kw? And even if it does. It will only be for a few minutes. With a 85kwH pack that is peanuts.
The car easily pulls 20kw when driving. Floor it and you are drawing 80kw. Let go and you regenerate 60kw.

10kw sound s like a lot but for this machine it is not. You have to see how long ot is drawing that.

Anyway, when plugged i to shore power you simply take your smartphone, tell the car to preheat cabin and defrost. The battery pack is kept conditioned when on shore power as well. So it is a non-issue.

What he meant is indeed firmware updates. They keep on adding features requested by owners. If someone has an idea that can be implemented by firmware, and it is i teresting, it will be done.
The jack is such an idea.

Other firmware updates: a recent fire in a garage wiring (not the tesla wiring , the wiring in the wall was flaky) . Examining telemetry showed fluctuating incoming voltage. A few days later we got a firmware update. If the car detects fluctuations in line voltage it disengages charging and notifies the owner that there is wiring problem in the house.

Absolutely brilliant !

Tesla does updates every few weeks. Since the original 1.0 release 16 months ago we are now at 5.8.4.

Other things that have been done with firmware updates : sound system DSP algorithms, new audio format supports, wifi has been enabled for firmware download and home connection and internet. Tweaks to suspension and steering wheel response settings.

Tesla collects tons of telemetry and feedback from users. That is coupled back to firmware updates. So the car gets more features , capabilites and optimisations over time. All for free.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 07:11:48 am by free_electron »
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Offline Kremmen

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #598 on: December 29, 2013, 09:10:57 am »
Let me chime in with some useless comments. Firstly, i love the idea of electric cars and would like to get one for myself. For various reasons i can't see that happening anytime soon, if at all during my time of active driving. Why? Here is my thinking and it is a personal thing coming from my position so not applicable for all. But let's see if some of it is valid more generally.

Tesla seems to be the most credible attempt at an all-electric car today. If the cost in US is close to 100 k$ (or whatever), the cost where i live would be astronomical. Some governments, mine included have seen it fit to tax cars out of all proportion. Thus the price here would be like double the selling price in the US. End of story right there.
--> The ex-factory cost of an electric car must be comparable to a gas car to gain any kind of general popularity.

But that is just one issue. Let's assume the prices somehow turn reasonable and there is no significant difference between a gas and electric car. It doesn't have to be a Tesla after all, and a Tesla would not be everybody's cup of tea anyway. The next question will be charging the thing. For job commuting it is enough to get there and back on one charge and then you can again plug it in your garage wall. For me that would be like ~100 km and that will soon be reality for almost any serious contender in the electric scene.
When that happens reliably (see next point) and the prices are affordable, whatever that means, then i'll start looking seriously into this.
--> The car must have a practical endurance somehow comparable to a gas car.

But it isn't enough! To replace the gas car, the electric must have essentially the same properties. Not all of the requirements are for the car either. You need a charging infrastructure and a sufficiently similar charging experience to filling up your gas tank. You can't be stranded in the middle of nowhere for hours (or half an hour either in practice) while your battery charges. Especially if you have to repeat every couple 100 km. I have a hard time seeing a business in maintaining a charging station where a gas station can't make a profit. And many of the existing stations are "cold" with no amenities - no fun standing in the snow while your vehicle slowly charges... We'll have to see what if anything comes out of that.
--> The car must be rechargeable "reasonably" while you are on a long trip.

If the global warming advances as fast as the most fanatical doomsayers predict, the next point may not be valid for much longer. But while waiting for that day, there is still the winter to consider in many places in the world, my place included.
Would you believe that an ordinary tram (yes, those that you have in some cities) could have trouble in the winter - in the middle of a city? Or that an electric train could fail just because it is cold and there's a bit of snow? And i don't mean it would be buried under or anything like that. Both true here. Several reputable mfgs have been unable to produce a tram that would reliably and repeatably make it through the winter in Helsinki city. The original ones made locally (by the way i happened to work for the maker of the electrics at that time) are still in commission waiting for the replacement to survive. And we have beautiful sleek trains made in Southern Europe that just die in the midle of nowhere come winter and the first blizzard.
So, what works nicely in California may not do so when the going gets tougher. Or it might, but we will have to see. At the same time, every gas car has a powerful fuel heater built right in under the hood. Sometimes under some conditions and in some cars that is barely enough to keep the windows clear and the occupants' butts unfrozen. Take an example: Nissan Leaf. According to recent tests it can do ~100km on 1 charge under favorable conditions. In -15 C that you regularly get in Northern latitudes it could do just 59 km with heating on (but no preheat). Now that is pitiful and less than useful. At the same time the car costs 40 000+ € here. As a replacement for the family gas car it is a bad joke really.
--> Electric cars must function in all weather conditions similarly to a gas car.

So while there are solutions for wealthy enthusiasts, unfortunately as far as the "general public" and less than balmy environments are concerned, looks like we are still waiting. But having said all of the above, i'm still rooting for electric and we will see it in common use one day. First they'll solve the easier challenges and maybe finally all of those listed above as well.
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Offline tom66

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Re: Tesla Model S, Third Fire
« Reply #599 on: December 29, 2013, 10:13:37 am »
I got 10kW from people saying in cold weather with zero throttle power meter and vehicle logs show about 10kW... I imagine the pack heater will be running off the 400V DC bus like the HVAC system.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 10:24:02 am by tom66 »
 


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