Tesla Model S, Third Fire

[dr.diesel]

I for one am not happy I'm paying for rich people to drive around in their status symbols..

Whining and doing nothing is not a solution.

Your assumption couldn't be more wrong.

I'm a quite vocal libertarian against all entitlements.

[dr.diesel]

This has degenerated into political  (bullshit) already? Unsubbed.

Burnettes are more beautiful.

[free_electron]

I for one am not happy I'm paying for rich people to drive around in their status symbols..

Whining and doing nothing is not a solution.

Your assumption couldn't be more wrong.

I'm a quite vocal libertarian against all entitlements.

then you should not have attacked the 'rich people' nor called the Tesla a 'status symbol'. Anyone is free to buy a Tesla. It's not limited to rich people. Besides, the incentive is for ANY EV . From the cheapest Leaf , over the plug-in prius, the rav-4, the volt ,  all the way to the Tesla

I also don't like entitlements, especially if i'm paying for them. The goverment discount was not a dangling carrot to buy the tesla. I just think that this is a really nice car , the way of the future and it is a geek-toy. I'm in the market for a new car , wanted to go electric. None of the others meet my requirements simply because they don't have enough range and look butt ugly (i know colors and tastes are not discutable , but i think we can at least agree they are weird looking ) .
I like doing roadtrips and going to the ocean (which is 70+miles away). None of the other EV's can even get there ...
If there was no government incentive i'd still have bought the Tesla, as from a pure usage standpoint it is the only one that can replace what i am used to. It actually has more range.

[mtdoc]

I will likely be buying a Chevy Volt for my next car within a year.. Yeah, Yeah, I know - GM bailout, etc, etc (spare the political stuff - I would have just assumed GM and the Big Banks! be allowed to fail.. but that is besides the point.)

A Volt is an almost perfect solution for my needs since i have a 12 mile round trip commute, frequently drive up to 40 miles in one day and only rarely have a need to drive any farther.  When I do the Volts ICE is essentially a very fuel efficient generator giving the same range as any ICE car.    I have a large solar system - grid tied with battery back up since I live 5 miles up a mountain road where extended power outages are common. This means I can fuel my car with the grid or my solar. Oh- and the grid power in NW Washington State where I live is >80% from Hydro and Wind.

The only down side of the Volt is the lack of AWD which I do need in the winter here ( Our 3rd car a 12 yr old 4WD truck I will have to use on snow days...).

I've never bought an American car (and I have owned a lot of cars) but I have to say the performance, build quality, price and track record of a Volt is hard to resist.

My ideal car would be a Via Motors Truck but I'm not ready to plunk down 80K for a car.

The Tesla Model X is the ideal car for my Wife but it is also a lot of $$$ and she says she'd be embarrassed to drive such an expensive car .. I kind of like that about her...

As free_electron says - prices will come down...

[nctnico]

I also don't like entitlements, especially if i'm paying for them. The goverment discount was not a dangling carrot to buy the tesla. I just think that this is a really nice car , the way of the future and it is a geek-toy. I'm in the market for a new car , wanted to go electric. None of the others meet my requirements simply because they don't have enough range and look butt ugly (i know colors and tastes are not discutable , but i think we can at least agree they are weird looking ) .

You bought one?    (OK just kidding with the  I couldn't resist)
Seriously: I do agree that Tesla is (currently) the only manufacturer of real electrical cars. The others are just half assed attempts. Then again even Tesla still has a lot to learn. You know we expect a full teardown once you got it 

[tom66]

People argue about the $7.5k incentive on the Tesla, but what about the in-built incentive in every gas car? Wars over oil, spill cleanup, incentives for oil industry, environmental damage (climate change, Beijing/LA smog), etc.etc.  None of that appears on the sticker price but we all pay for it... even those who go electric... so an incentive isn't unfair and could actually be beneficial.

[M. András]

they have a nice gallery 1 of t he galleries show part of the electrical system damn thats a massive busbar on their site they state the chargers are 92% efficient well at those power levels its good for me. it sucks to live in this country as the price of that car is too much here i would be 40 atleast when i get the money for it  but 16 years later i hope they will be cheaper and will have higher range good for those who live in the us and earn that amount of money in a year or two

[dr.diesel]

then you should not have attacked the 'rich people' nor called the Tesla a 'status symbol'. Anyone is free to buy a Tesla. It's not limited to rich people. Besides, the incentive is for ANY EV . From the cheapest Leaf , over the plug-in prius, the rav-4, the volt ,  all the way to the Tesla

You can buy a nice 30+MPG car for $30,000, saving $40,000 which would buy you 400,000 miles worth of gas at $3 gallon.  (yeah I didn't account for oil changes/etc, but batteries neither)

I will comprise the discussion by respecting your decision to further an emerging technology that is not quite yet an economical advantage.

[Rufus]

now you are comparing to the 60KW battery pack an you say  'plenty of cars' . Like dinky little toys with a sippy cup 4 cylinder engine ?
The 85KW is EPA ratedat 265 and experience from current owners gives that 300 miles is not a problem. Drive it normally and not like a lunatic and you get even 30 to 40 miles more out of it. some dude even pulled 412 miles out of it...

The 2 gallon gas tank was compared with the 60kWh battery.

This current owners experience

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2013/1013/Pushing-a-Tesla-Motors-Model-S-to-the-edge-of-its-range/%28page%29/2

Makes a 168 mile trip sound like an adventure requiring preparation the night before and slow topping up in the morning, he says "Going down a long, steep hill near my house, I actually had to use the brakes. Damn! Wasting precious energy already!" - range angst within the first 10 minutes.  His conclusion :- "My personal takeaway from this exercise was a practical range limit for my car: 180 miles in warm weather, 150 miles in the cold." And of course the battery capacity is only going to deteriorate.

So you can thrash around in your 416hp Telsa close to home, but, plenty of the time people will be driving them like pussies worried about having enough battery to reach home or a charger and the guys in 'sippy' 4 cylinder cars will be blowing them of from the lights and passing them on the freeways.

[free_electron]

You bought one?    (OK just kidding with the  I couldn't resist)
You know we expect a full teardown once you got it 

Jep .Delivery week of christmas. Includes a tour of the factory.
This is what i ordered

[Seg]

Worried about range, but you're driving 74mph??

Aerodynamic drag goes up with speed. Period. True of any vehicle. If you're worried about range, you drive 50-60mph at most. You do not get to cry about range while driving 74mph.

(Speaking as someone who has never owned a vehicle with a speedo that indicates more than 85mph... )

[digsys]

   Delivery week of christmas. Includes a tour of the factory. This is what i ordered   

There's only 2-3 in OZ, but seen them a few times at our "green" shows. Definitely a beautifully constructed vehicle,
and I'm not just talking about the Lotus chassis that it's built on. But for me, waiting to see how our first road legal
Solar / electric (hybrid) comes out. Never need to worry about charging. There were a few already at the last WSC
solar race in OZ, and not bad for the very first generation. www.worldsolarchallenge.org

[free_electron]

   Delivery week of christmas. Includes a tour of the factory. This is what i ordered   

There's only 2-3 in OZ, but seen them a few times at our "green" shows. Definitely a beautifully constructed vehicle,
and I'm not just talking about the Lotus chassis that it's built on. But for me, waiting to see how our first road legal
Solar / electric (hybrid) comes out. Never need to worry about charging. There were a few already at the last WSC
solar race in OZ, and not bad for the very first generation. www.worldsolarchallenge.org

the roadster was a Lotus chassi. The S is a fully Tesla built machine in the Fremont plant. Massive rolsl of aluminum sheet enter , cars leave..
Watch the megafactories episode and be amazed. 90% of the car is built in the Fremont factory. they even assemble their own circuit boards , have their own pick and place robots... they even make the electromotor themselves.

[zapta]

We have no choice in the matter, it's not an option, it IS going to happen. Some will do their best to block EV's from replacing ICE vehicles, but it's going to be just a matter of time before all ICE vehicles are replaced with EV's.

That's good news because we can stop subsidizing algae fuel.  ;-)

Seriously, EV has two aspects, technological and political and the pushback is on the latter. Activities and governments try to force it on the citizenry using higher taxes, exaggerations, fear tactics, limiting competing technologies and pure discrimination.

Nobody will care if people will manufacture and buy electric cars on their own dime. The problem starts when they force us to pay for it.

[ElectroIrradiator]

This is what i ordered

Do those wheel spokes actually act like a fan, or are they just accidentally shaped that way?   If they do work, helping to cool the drive motors, then that is nice attention to detail I'd say.

Given how highly you have spoken of the car, then I believe a video - if perhaps not a component level tear down - is warranted for the tech enthusiasts. Including a range test 'till empty.

(PS: My car is a decently sized luxury sedan, 5m long, seats four large adults, and has all the critter comforts you could ask for, except for perhaps SatNav. It is still overpowered, and would work fine with half as much engine power as it has. Yes, this does matter IMO, when the talk is about potential range of EVs and associated battery capacity.)

----
Edit for great grammar justice...

[tom66]

The drive inverter, motor and batteries are all water cooled using a small pair of radiators sitting at the front of the vehicle. The wheels just look nice.

[Rufus]

In any case, why are we still at the stage of wanting to set fire to stuff to provide the energy we want? .. setting fire to anything (bio or fossil) is very primitive, isn't it time we sort to advance away from what is still not that very different to a steam engine?

Oh look at those cars and power stations - they are so 1900's.

You seem to think the laws of physics and chemistry can be changed at will like hair styles and clothes fashion.

[nctnico]

Pippy does have a point saying there hasn't been much progress in technology for getting ourselves from A to B. Even space ships are  propelled into space using technology developed in the 1940's. Actually NASA wants to go back to the technology used in the Apollo space program. IMHO far too less money has been spend on improving nuclear energy. If Greenpeace didn't scare people so much maybe the dissaster in Fukushima could have been prevented from happening due to better technology.

[G7PSK]

In any case, why are we still at the stage of wanting to set fire to stuff to provide the energy we want? .. setting fire to anything (bio or fossil) is very primitive, isn't it time we sort to advance away from what is still not that very different to a steam engine?

Oh look at those cars and power stations - they are so 1900's.

You seem to think the laws of physics and chemistry can be changed at will like hair styles and clothes fashion.

Early 1900's so are electric cars. Or rather late 1890's.

[staxquad]

Pippy does have a point saying there hasn't been much progress in technology for getting ourselves from A to B. Even space ships are  propelled into space using technology developed in the 1940's. Actually NASA wants to go back to the technology used in the Apollo space program. IMHO far too less money has been spend on improving nuclear energy. If Greenpeace didn't scare people so much maybe the dissaster in Fukushima could have been prevented from happening due to better technology.

big dumb boosters

there's no solving nuclear waste, human incompetence, hubris and stupidity

people keep whining about their friends and family getting cancer, yet can't associate it with contact/intake of radioactive particles from nuclear tests, nuclear bombs, DU, nuclear disasters, nuclear waste and just plain nuclear plants emitting, for 68 years constant

Fukushima will be contaminating the Pacific till doomsday, nobody knows how to stop it, nobody knows where the 3 coriums are or how to isolate them from the environment

for the next year TEPCO will be transferring nuclear fuel rods from unit 4, hold your breath, it's the most threatening event in human history

the nuclear path is guaranteed extinction

[Rufus]

If Greenpeace didn't scare people so much maybe the dissaster in Fukushima could have been prevented from happening due to better technology.

Fukashima wasn't a disaster - it hasn't killed anyone and the number of slightly premature deaths caused by radiation pollution will be insignificant compared to the 20000 or so instant deaths caused by the tsunami.

The tusnami destroying and damaging a million buildings and killing 20000 was a disaster, Fukashima was a small part of it.

[dr.diesel]

people keep whining about their friends and family getting cancer, yet can't associate it with contact/intake of radioactive particles from nuclear tests, nuclear bombs, nuclear disasters, nuclear waste and just plain nuclear plants emitting, for 68 years constant

What about the pollution generated by coal?  There are thousands of plants worldwide spewing out all kinds of nasty shit 24-7-365.

Here in Indiana, with no vehicle inspections I see countless numbers of shitty K-cars burning more oil than gas driving down road, with the drivers chain smoking, windows rolled up with 6 kids in the back.

This discussion is endless. 

[mamalala]

there's no solving nuclear waste, human incompetence, hubris and stupidity

There is. LFTR and TWR type reactors can happily burn through most of what is now considered waste, while at theh same time the end product will be radioactive for a far, far shorter time. But guess who lobbied massively to have spent fuel vitrified? Ah, yes, there it is: http://www.greens.org/s-r/35/35-08.html

Not to mention that those reactor types are pretty much inherently safe. Fact is that the spent fuel is already there. Let's make good use of it, while at the same time lessening the burden about the waste for the generations to follow.

Greetings,

Chris

[zapta]

It's not about trying to change the laws of physics and chemistry, it's about getting our priorities right (which are totally screwed up).

A very simple example could be to stop giving 100's of millions of UK pounds to say footballers and spend it on helping to sort out this impending and ever increasing power problem that is going to bite us BIG time if we don't stop being so darned stupid. To say we have our heads in the sand is an understatement.

We could do soooo very much towards fixing the problem, IF we really wanted too. We are being very silly.

1. I agree, taxpayers money should not go to footballers. People should do it on their own dime. Same goes with EVs and solar panels.

2. Enough with the exaggerations and the fear tactics. The doomsday predictions of the environmentalists in the last 40 years fail miserably.  Check this fascinating video

http://capitolrecord.tvw.org/2013/03/senators-hear-testimony-from-global-warming-skeptic/#.UoEx0HWJD4y

[Corporate666]

Then we will hit a tipping point.  The complexity of a combustion powered car are massive... numerous cooling and lubrication systems and mechanicals that are infinitely more complex than on an EV.  Pretty soon EV's will be cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, easier to maintain, require drastically less service, and offer a more comfortable ride (no big driveline tunnel, no engine drone, and more).  Children born today will tell their grandkids how they remember the old days when we put gasoline in cars, and the grandkids will laugh at how backwards we were.

Very true, but all we will be doing is trading one complexity for another.  When electric cars become the norm we'll soon be rushing in self driving cars, car to car communication, super fancy vision systems GPS etc.  It's the correct path I suppose, soon your car will be perfectly capable of driving your drunk ass home at night!

Our grandkids will never enjoy the thrill and exhilaration of a roaring classic V8 melting the pavement while shedding a brand new set of tires in one single burnout.

(how I miss my 468 Bigblock Chevy powered 1980 Olds Cutlass)

It may be that this comes to pass, or maybe not.

I used to do a lot of car racing when I was young, and almost to a man, the car guys have an intense, seething hatred for EV's.  I don't understand why, as for anyone who is a TRUE "car guy", an EV is a dream come true.

Lower weight, putting the power where it's needed (wheel based motors), and huge advantages in center of gravity, packaging and such will make for cars that vastly outperform cars of today.  Not to mention all the torque right off the line.  It ought to be a car guy's fantasy.  But they complain about it.  Because most people don't like change.

But most older people lament that cell phones are ubiquitous nowadays - but we're not using cell phones because we are forced into it, but rather because it improves our lives.  Same with EV's.  They will catch on because they will improve our lives.

As for the roaring V8... ICE cars will still be around for centuries, I think... but at some point, our generation will die off and kids will love their 100kW tire-shredding EV and will tell stories to each other about how you could hear the inverter buzzing as the tires screeched to put 2,000 amps to the tarmac.