Tesla Model S, Third Fire

[tom66]

Uh, well, DELL had a problem with laptop Li-Ion battery fires...
Boeing had some issues, too...

And Li-Ion batteries can burn if crushed or punctured, which is the issue in the Tesla's case. The main difference with the Tesla fire compared to a normal car fire is when a Tesla battery burns, the reaction is generally slow to start compared to a fuel fire (which can engulf a car in flames in seconds.)

[Robomeds]

Uh, well, DELL had a problem with laptop Li-Ion battery fires...
Boeing had some issues, too...

And Li-Ion batteries can burn if crushed or punctured, which is the issue in the Tesla's case. The main difference with the Tesla fire compared to a normal car fire is when a Tesla battery burns, the reaction is generally slow to start compared to a fuel fire (which can engulf a car in flames in seconds.)

The Dell battery fires were the result of Sony cells.  Dell used multiple cell vendors but the Sony cells had an internal failure resulting in spontaneous failures.  IIRC Sony's books showed a big loss that year as they replaced all the batteries.  It worked for me because my laptop was 2.5 years old when they replaced my battery.

[JoeyP]

'Mericans want their horsepower! They think it makes them better drivers.

Fuck yeah! Oh, by the way, Germans seem to  like it OK too.

[staxquad]

One kilowatt hour of electricity is cheaper than 1 kWh of gasoline.

The lithium batteries in the Model S are identical to the ones in most laptops (excluding Macs), most solar cars, and some rechargeable flashlights. They're nearly inpossible to ignite by themselves, even when ruptured; the problems are with wiring or the damage thereof.

How often do laptops light on fire because of their batteries? Never.

[tom66]

I like a powerful car, too. Nothing wrong with good acceleration. The great thing is, with an electric motor you don't pay a large penalty in terms of efficiency for a powerful motor. If anything, a larger higher power motor can be more efficient than a smaller one due to lower copper resistance (thicker wire) and a more efficient inverter (IGBT lower Vf, series resistance.)

[ElectroIrradiator]

If Tesla do make a cheap car ($30k ish) it needs to compete with other cars in that price range, meaning minimum 200hp but ideally 250hp+. And a 0-60 below 7 seconds.

This is insanity. I happen to have a car with more than 250 HP, a large and heavy one at that, and 250+ HP is mad, mad overkill for ordinary roads and daily driving.

The only way I could make use of that much power, would be if my driving habits were somewhere between 'complete idiot' and 'sheer madness'. 2400 RPM exceeds the maximum speed limit anywhere in Denmark (130 kph), and 1800 RPM is enough for anything but the 'Autobahn'. Stop and go traffic downtown? My main concern is not hitting the car in front of me.

A friend of mine, who is a former professional rally driver, have had an unmodified car identical to mine up to 271 kph during a controlled test on flat and level road...

The only purpose of that much engine power in a passenger sedan, is if you wish to indulge in gratuitous drag races at the red light. Read: There are not a whole lot of cars in Denmark, which can keep up with me, if I put the foot down. Which I very rarely do.

[mtdoc]

Boeing's issue was with a different, new battery chemistry - LiFePO4, and the wiring was screwed up.

No, actually Boeing's battery fires were with Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LCO) batteries.  They should have used Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) which are inherently very safe and not subject to thermal runaway with over discharging or overcharging.  Their disadvantage is that they have somewhat less energy density (less Ah/Kg) than the more exotic (and unstable) Lithium battery chemistries.  This is the reason why Boeing did not use them.

[free_electron]

If Tesla do make a cheap car ($30k ish) it needs to compete with other cars in that price range, meaning minimum 200hp but ideally 250hp+. And a 0-60 below 7 seconds.

This is insanity. I happen to have a car with more than 250 HP, a large and heavy one at that, and 250+ HP is mad, mad overkill for ordinary roads and daily driving.

The only way I could make use of that much power, would be if my driving habits were somewhere between 'complete idiot' and 'sheer madness'. 2400 RPM exceeds the maximum speed limit anywhere in Denmark (130 kph), and 1800 RPM is enough for anything but the 'Autobahn'. Stop and go traffic downtown? My main concern is not hitting the car in front of me.

A friend of mine, who is a former professional rally driver, have had an unmodified car identical to mine up to 271 kph during a controlled test on flat and level road...

The only purpose of that much engine power in a passenger sedan, is if you wish to indulge in gratuitous drag races at the red light.

Sure... on a flat road. See what is required from that motor to climb a mountain or two while maintaining 45 mph .. just climbing the santa cruz mountain range my MPG drops to 8 ... from an average 23 ...
Also, that Tesla weighs 2.5 ton ... that's substantially more than your average car. Throw that in the equation and you will find you do need 300hp to do that.

The one i got has 362hp motor ( i got the standard 85 , not the P85. I'm not a race car driver ). The base model has a 302 hp motor.

[ElectroIrradiator]

Sure... on a flat road. See what is required from that motor to climb a mountain or two while maintaining 45 mph .. just climbing the santa cruz mountain range my MPG drops to 8 ... from an average 23 ...
Also, that Tesla weighs 2.5 ton ... that's substantially more than your average car. Throw that in the equation and you will find you do need 300hp to do that.

The one i got has 362hp motor ( i got the standard 85 , not the P85. I'm not a race car driver ). The base model has a 302 hp motor.

OK, then there must be something else in play here.

As it happens, then a group of friends, including myself, are a bit of petrol heads. While I am mostly a sunny Sunday comfort driver, the others dabble with 1/4 mile drag racing in classic American muscle cars and suchlike. By coincidence we have discussed this subject at length, how much HP is 'enough' for an everyday car. In Denmark it is a bit of a running joke, that only true petrol heads would be insane enough to have V-8 equipped cars as their daily drivers (due to fuel consumption, fuel taxes, insurance premiums, etc.)

Your car and mine have roughly the same power-to-weight ratio. Additionally my friend, the ex-racer, is also a professional mechanic with his own business, and his car was in every way identical to mine, except for the color. He used his car for hauling classic American steel on a large auto trailer. While Denmark is not known for our mountain ranges, we still have a fair amount of local hills long and steep enough to make themselves noticed by our cars. He also drove on holiday in the Alps with his family of four, plus a caravan on the hitch.

At one point I had commented that no matter which task I put before my car, it still felt effortless and overpowered. The temperature of the cooling water never budges, a steep hill is hardly noticeable on engine RPM etc. His reply was the comments above, with the addition that the car still feels overpowered with either a caravan or a late fifties Cadillac (they weigh about the same as your car) being dragged along for the ride. You can feel the extra weight, of course, and the fuel consumption goes up, but you won't have any problems keeping up in traffic, nor if there is a mountain or a steep hill in front of you. The only reason why he stopped using that car for hauling, was that according to Danish law it was actually too light for the weights he was pulling.

Another friend used to have a 2001 Subaru Impreza 2.0 (non-turbo edition) with about 120HK, four wheel drive. It weighed about 1600kg empty. That was also a fun car to drive, even in its non-rally setup. My friend had it down in the Alps as well (no caravan though), and said it was still fine as well.

Buy better cars?

[nctnico]

Sure... on a flat road. See what is required from that motor to climb a mountain or two while maintaining 45 mph .. just climbing the santa cruz mountain range my MPG drops to 8 ... from an average 23 ...
Also, that Tesla weighs 2.5 ton ... that's substantially more than your average car. Throw that in the equation and you will find you do need 300hp to do that.

Nonsense. Just learn how to drive (IOW switch to a lower gear when going uphill). Last summer I drove over the Gotthard pass (about 2500 meter high) in the Swiss alps. Uphill with 80km/h was easy. Its just a matter of keeping the engine in an RPM range where you have maximum power. And no, that is not where it feels like it has a lot of 'pull'.

[tom66]

The Tesla does not have gears.

I wonder if the Tesla truly uses different motors or if the power is software limited; there clearly is the capability for the software to apply a power limit (for example when the battery is low, or when the inverter exceeds rated temperature due to a cooling fault.) It's noticeable too that the 60kWh has a lower power limit on both the consumption and regen modes, indicating the battery may be the actual power limiter (rather than the motor or the inverter), unless it's just a marketing thing...

[tom66]

Interesting statement from owner
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-owner-tennessee

The car's warning system is interesting, most ICEs would not benefit from this.

[nctnico]

The Tesla does not have gears.

I wonder if the Tesla truly uses different motors or if the power is software limited; there clearly is the capability for the software to apply a power limit (for example when the battery is low, or when the inverter exceeds rated temperature due to a cooling fault.) It's noticeable too that the 60kWh has a lower power limit on both the consumption and regen modes, indicating the battery may be the actual power limiter (rather than the motor or the inverter), unless it's just a marketing thing...

I guess we'll be seeing EVs with some kind of automatic gearbox soon. If you read this teardown of a the electric drive train of a Toyota Prius (eat your heart out Dave  ) then you'll see the efficiency varies between 77% and 92%: http://www.osti.gov/scitech/servlets/purl/890029

[EEVblog]

Interesting statement from owner
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-owner-tennessee

The remote door locks still worked even though the entire front end was melted! 

[amyk]

An EV without gear changes is definitely going to be a weird experience for many drivers who are used to feeling the shifting action and engine RPM to estimate their speed.

I wonder if the Tesla truly uses different motors or if the power is software limited; there clearly is the capability for the software to apply a power limit (for example when the battery is low, or when the inverter exceeds rated temperature due to a cooling fault.) It's noticeable too that the 60kWh has a lower power limit on both the consumption and regen modes, indicating the battery may be the actual power limiter (rather than the motor or the inverter), unless it's just a marketing thing...

I can almost see the thread here: "Tesla Model S Hack - Get 600HP for free"

[c4757p]

An EV without gear changes is definitely going to be a weird experience for many drivers who are used to feeling the shifting action and engine RPM to estimate their speed.

I didn't even think of that. That's pretty much how I always do it, and I can pretty accurately estimate my speed as I accelerate through 20-70MPH (32 to 112 for you metric folk). Barely ever have to look at the speedometer, unless I'm going a steady speed for a long time, and I'm usually within 1-2MPH. I don't know how well I'd do without the gear shifts to "recalibrate" my estimation periodically on the way up. Of course, I'm sure I could get used to it - there are a lot of other things on which I could base my estimate, but time on the pedal (I supposed I'm really sort of "integrating" the pressure applied to the pedal) recalibrated by gear shifts is the only one that works irrespective of noise, weather, surroundings, etc.

[zapta]

An EV without gear changes is definitely going to be a weird experience for many drivers who are used to feeling the shifting action and engine RPM to estimate their speed.

This is also the case with existing CVT cars.  CVT is even available for bicycles these days.

[free_electron]

Nonsense. Just learn how to drive (IOW switch to a lower gear when going uphill).

Sure, you figure out how to do that with an automatic gearbox , and i'll do it ...
Manual gearchanges are for fossils. The automatic transmission is almost 100 years old.
Even WW2 tanks had em... Time to catch on...

Also an american airconditioning coolant compressor will stall a small engine.

Besides, a tesla doesnt have a switchable box. It's a fixed reduction ratio from motor to wheels.
So that may be why that motor needs to be able to develop so much power. Faced with a steep climb to maintain speed you will need to pump more current into it. Simple as that.

[free_electron]

An EV without gear changes is definitely going to be a weird experience for many drivers who are used to feeling the shifting action and engine RPM to estimate their speed.

I like not feeling the shifting change ! And not hearing the noise of the engine ! All that caklunk and kablonk and rumble is so last century...

Besides, even if you could hear the electric motor .. Good luck figuring out if its running 18000rpm or 19200 rpm or 35000 rpm...

[c4757p]

Nonsense. Just learn how to drive (IOW switch to a lower gear when going uphill).

Sure, you figure out how to do that with an automatic gearbox , and i'll do it ...

...pull the shifter down into "3" or "2"? What auto doesn't let you force a downshift?

[free_electron]

Nonsense. Just learn how to drive (IOW switch to a lower gear when going uphill).

Sure, you figure out how to do that with an automatic gearbox , and i'll do it ...

...pull the shifter down into "3" or "2"? What auto doesn't let you force a downshift?

sure. try that . put it in 3 and try reaching  55MPh or 60MPh ... you'll be lucky if it doesn't blow up.
To run 55 or 60 while climbing reasonably fast(steep incline) you simply need horsepower as you need to run in higher gear. Everyone on US17 goes 50 or more... unless it's a ford POS or a gremling chugging along at barely 40 holding up 300 cars behind it.

Anyway all those discussions are useless. We are at a point in history where it is possible to make electric motors that can deliver 400 to 450 horsepower when needed, driven by battery packs with 300 mile range when needed. Let's use em ! Why always short-change ourselves. Why always make a product that only works for a small segment or has severe usability limitations ?
That is my gripe with the whole eco-movement. if it were up to those nutters we'd all be walking around in hemp clothes, treebark on our feet, wiping our ass with palm leaves using flag waving (smoke signals pollute) to communicate long distance.

I don't want that. I am used to my current lifestyle and do not want to change my level of comfort in order to become eco-friendly. Don't misunderstand me, i'm all for ecological , environmentally friendly  and energy efficiency. i don't use plastic bags , my trash production is very minimal and i recycle anything i can. Using palmleaves maybe ecofriendly but i'm going to continue to use toiletpaper (unless someone knows how to use 3 shells...)

But, There is NO TECHNOLOGICAL reason to have to change our lifestyle. We can build powerful electric motors, we can build large battery packs. these things have efficiencies ICE can only dream of. We can charge the batteries from solar,wind or even bloomboxes ! Anyone thought about that ? You don't hear a lot about those but they do work. Google, Walmart, Bank Of america and plenty of other big corporations are running huge datacenters off of bloomboxes. Clean natural gas (or even compressed cow farts.. methane)  in , water and co2 out (they are carbon neutral) ... they are fuel cells.

Here is my point : for the switch to electric propulsion to be successful we need to make it equivalent IN ALL ASPECTS to current gasoline propulsion.
People are accustomed to a lifestyle and you simply can't change people. Fact is the human race is a bunch of self absorbed egoistical numbskulls set in their way of life (guilty myself). Try to change it and you will fail.
But like i said , we have arrived at a point in time where technologcally it is feasible. Cost is still a bit of a factor but that will dwindle in the next few years and then it only makes sense to do the conversion.

[Corporate666]

@Whales: you are comparing apples & oranges when comparing the efficiency of an electric motor versus combustion engine. Depending on where the electricity is coming from an EV (Tesla S, Leaf, Volt) can produce over 200grams of CO2 per km (if your electricity is coming from coal powered power plants). For comparison: my 14 year old diesel produces about 142 grams of CO2 per km. If you want an EV to be clean you have to source low emission electricity from somewhere.

You keep repeating this inaccuracy.

The fact is that EV's produce less CO2 than combustion cars - period.  The only way that is not true is if you compare the most CO2 efficient of combustion engines against an area with exceptionally high CO2 from electric production.

Unfortunately most people live in places where the CO2 production per kWh is exceptionally high. In China for example one kWh produces 800 grams of CO2 (180grams of CO2 per km for the average EV). Add to that that most cars in Asia have efficient 1.0 to 1.3 litre engines which produce very little CO2 per km. Besides that the world wide trend is to make car with IC engines way more efficient. AND don't forget bio-fuels are about to emerge. EVs are very much hyped nowadays but bio-fuels which have no impact on food production are here sooner than the battery technology required to give EVs a range which is acceptable for the majority of people. Bio-fuels are also a solution to polution problems because they burn cleaner than fossile fuels.

Every study I have seen says that combustion cars generate more CO2 per mile driven than EV's.  When you delve into the math behind the studies, it works out that you would need a very clean (in terms of CO2) car being operated in a pretty dirty electricity-generating location for the car to come out ahead.  But that isn't the normal situation.

Sure, some ICE cars can be cleaner than some EV's in some locations, but that statement comes with a whole bunch of asterisks attached... like on average, EV's being cleaner, and electrical trending to be much cleaner, etc. 

[Corporate666]

That's because the next oil shock hasn't happened yet. It will, bet your house on it.

Most people in America, (if they had a soul to sell), should bet that on it because their entire way of life is going to end around the time the next oil shock shows up in the form of the world telling the federal reserve to go F themselves.
This will be followed by some kind of compromise.
America's leaders will sell themselves and the corporations under them (you reading this: your ssn) to whoever holds the keys to hell at that time.

So give it about 3-6 months of chaos and out comes a new federal mandated work ID that is merged with required HHS authorization to get medical care, which will be connected to your SSN. this will last for about a year?
After some kind of false flag cyber attack, this entire system will go down. permanently.

After another say, idk what the estimates are, 3-6 months? of chaos, and a:  Failed American Revolution 2.0
You'll need the new and improved rfid 3.0 implant. oh, and it will have dna improvements to it.

next up the world will slowly accept their new overlords, or starve.

btw: The United States Has More People In Jail Than High School Teachers And Engineers

That's a bit political for my tastes on this forum, but I don't foresee the dollar being eliminated as the standard reserve currency of the world any time soon - certainly not in any of our lifetimes.

At the end of the day, military power is all that matters.  That's what makes the dollar the worlds reserve currency.  Sure, it's about political stability, the ability to repay, economic power and such, but all of that is ultimately derived from military strength.  I don't see anyone coming close to matching the USA in military strength for a long time.  People talk about China, but they would require a political and economic revolution, followed by a few dozen decades of economic, scientific and political growth before they are in a position to challenge the USA.

The point is that the move away from fossil fuel (at least for automotive power) is going to happen way, waaaay sooner than the implosion of the US economy.  There will still be significant demand for fossil fuels, but the USA has massive reserves of NG, and as we move away from gasoline for automotive fuels, it's going to mean a dramatic reduction in demand. 

[Corporate666]

Fuel cells are not the way. I do not want to keep paying for my hydrogen ! Besides hydrogen is produced industrially from oil... so it solves nothing. you are still dependent on big oil.

Wind and Solar energy are free ( apart from an initial installation cost ). Charge battery with solar or wind. Use battery to drive. I'm willing to pay a fee for the distribution of electricity. i need electricity anyway for lots of other things. The money will flow to the local electricity producers.  Good for a countries economy.

The greatest benefit of electric power is that the energy is abstracted from the means of production.  That isn't true of fuels like gasoline, hydrogen, diesel, CNG, etc. 

So we can use solar.  We can upgrade our coal fired electrical generation plants to use CNG.  We can use hydro.  We can use wind.  We can use coal-powered electric plants.  We can use nuclear.  And who knows what will be developed over the next century.  But an electron is still always going to be an electron, regardless of how it's generated.

And electrical generation, distribution, storage and use are very efficient - vastly more so than using fossil fuels.  And that efficiency will continue to rise.

It'a amazing to me that it was only about 15 years ago that Li-Ion batteries were advanced to the point where production cost and performance made them viable for mainstream electronics.  And it was more like 5 or 7 years ago when prices made them ubiquitous.  And here we are 5-7 years later and we have an electric car that goes around 250 miles per charge and can be fully charged in an hour.

I think the battery problem is going to be a very short lived one, just like the limitations that caused the "digital camera problem" (lack of resolution) were very short lived.  Now, nobody really considers film except for esoteric or nostalgic reasons.  In 20-30 years, the same will be true of gas powered cars.  I wager than before this decade is out, we will have numerous electric cars that easily go 300-400 miles on a charge and can be fully charged in 30 minutes or less.  And they won't cost substantially more than gas cars.

Then we will hit a tipping point.  The complexity of a combustion powered car are massive... numerous cooling and lubrication systems and mechanicals that are infinitely more complex than on an EV.  Pretty soon EV's will be cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, easier to maintain, require drastically less service, and offer a more comfortable ride (no big driveline tunnel, no engine drone, and more).  Children born today will tell their grandkids how they remember the old days when we put gasoline in cars, and the grandkids will laugh at how backwards we were.

[free_electron]

<snipped>
That is my gripe with the whole eco-movement. if it were up to those nutters we'd all be walking around in hemp clothes, treebark on our feet, wiping our ass with palm leaves using flag waving (smoke signals pollute) to communicate long distance.
<snipped>
I don't want that. I am used to my current lifestyle and do not want to change my level of comfort in order to become eco-friendly. Don't misunderstand me, i'm all for ecological , environmentally friendly  and energy efficiency. i don't use plastic bags , my trash production is very minimal and i recycle anything i can. Using palmleaves maybe ecofriendly but i'm going to continue to use toiletpaper (unless someone knows how to use 3 shells...)

Here is my point : for the switch to electric propulsion to be successful we need to make it equivalent IN ALL ASPECTS to current gasoline propulsion.
<snipped>

If you recycle, aren't you part of the "whole" eco-movement?

For most people, most of the time, ie. stuck in the daily commute traffic, a very basic vehicle would suffice. It should be more important to have a decent air-con (or heater for cold places). However, the lengthy recharge time for electric vehicles is a deal breaker for just about everyone.

I knew several people who bought a huge 4WD just for the very occasional need to tow a caravan, boat, or horse float. they'd all have been financially better off renting a RV, boat,  or paying a contractor to transport the horses.

Unfortunately human nature changes much slower than technology.

recycling does not impact my lifestyle or comfort. it's just another bin...
going back to palmleaves does impact me.

yes human nature changes slower than technology.
but, you can keep the huge 4 wheel drive for when you want to tow a boator horses. why should you bedenied that ? technologically you plonk in  large battery pack and apowerfull electromotor. problem solved.
I dont want to be reduced to a small litlle car that can barely puff 70 miles on a charge. i like doing roadtrips ! i like going to the ocean 70 miles away !
we are at a technological intersection where electric vehicles can do that. the Tesla 85 KWh has a wider operational range than my current 9 year old 11 gallon tank 23miles per gallon V6 Sebring convertible. The Tesla is more fun to drive, has more comfort and more gadgets on board , larger cargo space. Okay it costs 3 times as much. If i were to buy a BMW 7 series i'd be in the same ballpark.

Give it another 5 years and EV's will be at the same pricepoint with the same features as ICE cars. The technology is here , it is being rolled out and development is accelerating. The number ofbattery technology startups is booming. Last month a new zinc-graphene cell was demonstrated. behaves like a supercapacitor. Charges in an instant ( provided you can feed massive current ) and holds as much charge per volume as the best batteries out there. Commerciallize that and ICE will go the way of the dinosaur very quickly.