Tesla Model S, Third Fire

[SgtRock]

Greetings EEVBees:

--Just noticed this, see below link. I hope Musk gets it sorted, but if not Dave and I will be looking for dirt cheap fixeruppers.

http://insideevs.com/third-tesla-model-s-fire-in-past-5-weeks-breaks-out-after-accident/

"The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply, and be quite insane.
Nikola Tesla 1856 - 1943

[senso]

Teslas seem to have the unfortunate habit of getting hit with some strange things, thats for sure:

The Tesla Model S in question reportedly struck a tow hitch on the road, and ”hit the undercarriage of the vehicle causing an electrical fire.”

The other one was also it by a huge piece of metal that fall off a truck.

[M. András]

jes, there must be some flammable hydraolic oil or something in front of that car. as for the comments on that news page. hilarious. how many gasoline powered cars light up and burn out in 2 mins? ive seen the photos from 1 of my collegues car, it was a diesel bmw 3xx series after 2 minutes the car was burning with 10meters tall flames ignited fuel anyone?

[M. András]

Teslas seem to have the unfortunate habit of getting hit with some strange things, thats for sure:

The Tesla Model S in question reportedly struck a tow hitch on the road, and ”hit the undercarriage of the vehicle causing an electrical fire.”

The other one was also it by a huge piece of metal that fall off a truck.

im not really up for conspiracy theories but ffs how many normal days pass by when something falls of from a truck and the driver didnt even notice it? and drives trough it? the non electric cars which ive seen under there is only a few models such impacts would end up in the passengers or severe the brake or fuel lines immediatly

[c4757p]

im not really up for conspiracy theories but ffs how many normal days pass by when something falls of from a truck and the driver didnt even notice it? and drives trough it?

Happened to me about a month ago. A truck dropped a big bundle of metal cable (about 5-8mm thick, heavy stuff) right in front of me, and I was a bit tired and didn't react very quickly. Drove right over the damn thing. It pulled my brake line off a bracket but did not sever it.

And no, I wasn't following closely, he passed me and cut in front.

[EEVblog]

To put that sensationalist story into context:
http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/vehicles

U.S. fire departments responded to an estimated average of 152,300 automobile fires per year in 2006-2010. These fires caused an average of 209 civilian deaths, 764 civilian injuries, and $536 million in direct property damage.

Facts and Figures
Automobile fires were involved in 10% of reported U.S. fires, 6% of U.S. fire deaths.
On average, 17 automobile fires were reported per hour. These fires killed an average of four people every week.
Mechanical or electrical failures or malfunctions were factors in roughly two-thirds of the automobile fires.
Collisions and overturns were factors in only 4% of highway vehicle fires, but these incidents accounted for three of every five (60%) automobile fire deaths.
Only 2% of automobile fires began in fuel tanks or fuel lines, but these incidents caused 15% of the automobile fire deaths.

[walshms]

Right.  Not as impressive when you consider reality.

[JoeyP]

Facts and Figures
U.S. fire departments responded to an estimated average of 152,300 automobile fires per year in 2006-2010.

And to put those figures into context, there are 247.9 million gas vehicles on the roads in the US, and only 17,200 model S on the road in the US. So, gas vehicles burned at the rate of 11.8e-6/car/week, while model S burned at 34.9e-6/car/week, or about 3 times as often. Granted this is a small number of data points, so not that reliable, but the news will be much more sensationalist the first time someone dies in a model S.

[free_electron]

Fire 1 was the rear bumper of a truck that fell of and went under the car, puncturing the battery pack. No car could survive that and chances are that an ICE would be engulfed in flames as well.
The Tesla emergency system kicked in , car was able to roll to safety under limited power ( they can disable damaged packs in the battery ) and the driver got out safely. fire started later. At no point did fire enter the cabin. Rescue first used water ( correct ) then switched to powder ( wrong ) then cut into the battery because it kept smoking. cutting into the battery set the thing off and you get the spectacular flame video.

Fire 2 was cause by some bozo that was racing the car , ran over a sidewalk block , got the car airborne ( you have to go a very fast to get the 2 1/2 ton tesla airborne ... ) and landed it on a roundabout , cracking the entire nose wide open , shorting out all electrics and setting the thing on fire.

Fire 3 : car ran over a trailer hitch that fell off the car in front... do that with any car and see what happens ....

Non-events. I'm not canceling my order. Scheduled to arrive week of 22 December. Cars running on distillates of dinosaur-fat are so pre stone-age...

By the way, Tesla has signed a deal with panasonic for 2 BILLION cells. Panasonic will build a new plant DOUBLING the WORLDS liion cell production. They are going for something big ...

[walshms]

By the way, Tesla has signed a deal with panasonic for 2 BILLION cells. Panasonic will build a new plant DOUBLING the WORLDS liion cell production. They are going for something big ...

This is good news.  Might finally see some of the progress in Li technology make it into real production.

[free_electron]

speculation is that Tesla is going to electrify UPS fleet of delivery trucks... Solarcity would cover the buildings in solarcells. After a few years the trucks would drive essentially for free...

-quote "In other Tesla news, the EV automaker announced that battery supplier Panasonic will soon be shipping even more of its little cylindrical lithium-ion battery cells to Tesla. The expanded deal (not in any way surprising) means Panasonic will "supply nearly 2 billion [automotive-grade] cells over the course of four years," destined for the Model S and Model X. Panasonic cells have already moved the Teslas of the world over 130 million customer miles in Roadsters and Model S EVs since way back, the companies said."

- Daimler also announced another cooperation project and took a 14 % stake in Tesla... Mercedes will release an all electric series of vehicles based in Tesla technology. Just like there is today the A C E and S class there is a B class coming. not 1 but an entire line of vehicles !
Quote: "On Tesla's deal with Daimler, the company says that the "development program" will be done in early 2014, after which the company will work on "start of production to support market launch by Daimler in 2014.""

- The Model X has crossed  the 7500 level

- The west coast network is complete and the east coast network will be complete end of the year. 99% of the people in California, Oregon and Washington live within 200 miles from a supercharger. Tesla drove 2 cars non-stop from San Diego to Vancouver in Canada. adding 200 miles to the batteries in a supercharger takes 25 minutes... so you can hop from charger to charger . East coast will run Maine to Miami... and next year the SFO-new-york tract will come on line. by end 2015 99% of the US will live within 200 miles from a supercharger.

- 100% of Norwegians live 200 miles form a supercharger. Tesla was the most sold car in norway in September. Outselling volkswagen golf ... ( no2)

- The german Supercharger network is coming online. Those chargers will deliver 135 kilowatt ( as opposed to 120 kilowatt in the Us) and tesla will deliver a custom tuned Model - s to the germans so they can enjoy it on the unlimited speed stretches of autobahn...

It is the way of the future.

[walshms]

adding 200 miles to the batteries in a supercharger takes 25 minutes... so you can hop from charger to charger .

That's the problem that still needs to be solved.  Three hours of travel between charges (at 65 mph) and you need to stop for 25-30 minutes, adding that much time to the travel.  You just reduced your average speed to 57 mph, and that's assuming that you actually get in and out without any delays.

The way of the future?  Well... maybe.  I think that if we can lick the hydrogen storage issue, that's far more likely to be the way of the future.

[free_electron]

So you want to keep paying fueling station to fill up on hydrogen ? i'll take the supercharger. free. as in 0 paid.
besides i dont want hydrogen around me. i've seen ion implanters blow up...

after three hours of non stop driving you want to stretch your legs or take a pee and a coffee anyway. 15 to 20 minutes. perfectly reasonable.
my current gas-hog gets 23 miles to the gallon. 12 gallon tank means i need to stop as well after 200 miles.

as technology improves we will probably see battery packs with 300 to 300 miles between charges ( 3 to 4 years away )

It is ramping up fast, very fast.

[calexanian]

I have driven the Tesla S highest package when they had one for review at one of my jobs. It was a nice car. Apart from the fact that you can buy a jag for 40K less that is BETTER ($120,000 was the one we had) and that savings will buy more gas than you could possibly drive through, I still liked it. That being said...... Does it bug anybody else the flagrant use of the sales pitch "100% torque available at any RPM down to 0"? Anybody who has ever designed with a VFD drive, which is all they are doing knows that is %100 bunk! Also durring my occasional commute from Fresno to LA and then to Santa Barbra it is not uncommon to see a few stuck on the side of the road. I saw 3 in one weekend alone. I think they have more problems than they lead people to believe, or.. people forget to "Plug them in" at night.

[ElectroIrradiator]

It is ramping up fast, very fast.

Estimated time until the national electricity grids melts under the added load of supplying the electric cars with energy?

Edit: A crude calculation suggests that the US production of electricity needs to be increased by 26% if every passenger vehicle in the country had a 85 kWh battery, which needed to be fully charged once per week. So two full charges per car per week => 52% increase in electricity produced etc.

Then there are the trucks, trains, ships (and planes? ) Suspect we will use frozen, concentrated dinosaurs for a while yet...

[EEVblog]

after three hours of non stop driving you want to stretch your legs or take a pee and a coffee anyway. 15 to 20 minutes. perfectly reasonable.

Yep, not a problem. You've just gotta learn a different usage scenario, we are spoiled by 100 years of petrol station infrastructure.
I'd buy a Model S now if I could afford it...

[staxquad]

The lithium ion batteries installed on the Boeing 787 are inherently unsafe, says Elon Musk 

Tesla's Elon Musk Has a Solution to Boeing's 787 Dreamliner 

[nctnico]

im not really up for conspiracy theories but ffs how many normal days pass by when something falls of from a truck and the driver didnt even notice it? and drives trough it?

Happened to me about a month ago. A truck dropped a big bundle of metal cable (about 5-8mm thick, heavy stuff) right in front of me, and I was a bit tired and didn't react very quickly. Drove right over the damn thing. It pulled my brake line off a bracket but did not sever it.

Same happened to me earlier this year. Something got thrown up by the car in front of us and smashed into the front of our car. I had to replace the lower grill, license plate + holder and a fog light. The bumper got cracked and pieces of the under cover also got ripped of. Quite a mess but just plastic parts missing. It could have damaged the radiator, intercooler, power steering cooler or the radiator for the airco.

edit: If I look at the photos of the Tesla I spot a big difference to the cars I've seen so far. The cars I've seen have a big solid iron beam about 30cm from the bumper. This bar is connected to the main body at the sides and in the middle in order to support the weight of the engine. This bar also works as a crusher for anything that goes underneath the car. The Tesla doesn't seem to have such a bar or a much lighter version so anything which goes underneath the car can go on a rampage.

[Rufus]

Facts and Figures
U.S. fire departments responded to an estimated average of 152,300 automobile fires per year in 2006-2010.

And to put those figures into context, there are 247.9 million gas vehicles on the roads in the US, and only 17,200 model S on the road in the US. So, gas vehicles burned at the rate of 11.8e-6/car/week, while model S burned at 34.9e-6/car/week, or about 3 times as often. Granted this is a small number of data points, so not that reliable, but the news will be much more sensationalist the first time someone dies in a model S.

And consider all the Teslas are almost new, while older vehicles will be more likely to catch fire by (lack of) design and faults from wear and age.

[Rufus]

-quote "In other Tesla news, the EV automaker announced that battery supplier Panasonic will soon be shipping even more of its little cylindrical lithium-ion battery cells to Tesla. The expanded deal (not in any way surprising) means Panasonic will "supply nearly 2 billion [automotive-grade] cells over the course of four years," destined for the Model S and Model X. Panasonic cells have already moved the Teslas of the world over 130 million customer miles in Roadsters and Model S EVs since way back, the companies said."

Meanwhile Tesla stock takes a 14% hit after "Elon Musk revealed that the firm doesn't have enough batteries for its Model S"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/shares-of-tesla-motors-plunge-after-company-reports-battery-shortage-disappointing-3q-results/2013/11/06/0bdbd5a2-4729-11e3-95a9-3f15b5618ba8_story.html

[JoeyP]

Facts and Figures
U.S. fire departments responded to an estimated average of 152,300 automobile fires per year in 2006-2010.

And to put those figures into context, there are 247.9 million gas vehicles on the roads in the US, and only 17,200 model S on the road in the US. So, gas vehicles burned at the rate of 11.8e-6/car/week, while model S burned at 34.9e-6/car/week, or about 3 times as often. Granted this is a small number of data points, so not that reliable, but the news will be much more sensationalist the first time someone dies in a model S.

And consider all the Teslas are almost new, while older vehicles will be more likely to catch fire by (lack of) design and faults from wear and age.

Absolutely. That total includes Pinto-bombs and other vehicles from the 1960's, 70's, 80's which are quite worn out and often held together by duct tape and bailing wire applied by third-world mechanics. I've personally seen a 1969 Firebird burn to the ground because of a rotted rubber fuel line between the carb and fuel pump. I'd bet the numbers for cars built in this century look much much better than the total.

I'm not trying to knock Tesla. In fact, if they bring the roadster back I'll very likely buy one (with the complete understanding that in my neighborhood it will literally be powered by coal). But, if we are to be engineers about it, I think it's only fair to look at the picture objectively. There isn't yet enough data points to draw any definite conclusions, but based on the data we have to date, gasoline-powered vehicles seem to have a better track record for fires.

[free_electron]

There are a couple of ferraris that just spontaneously combust when you drive them normally ...

as far as the new/old. NONE of the teslas were self igniting ! they were all because of severe crashes !
there is many a petrol car that self ignites because of wear ....

[JoeyP]

...
there is many a petrol car that self ignites because of wear ....

Yes, and those worn cars are included in the total that we're comparing statistically with just brand new Teslas - which is exactly the point. And it remains to be seen if Teslas will find ways to self-ignite in the future.

[walshms]

So you want to keep paying fueling station to fill up on hydrogen ? i'll take the supercharger. free. as in 0 paid.
besides i dont want hydrogen around me. i've seen ion implanters blow up...

Free?  Really?  I find that to be stunning.  If it is now, do you think it will be later?  I'm paying for electric generation for my home; I can't imagine that it's not going to be something you pay for to get around.

after three hours of non stop driving you want to stretch your legs or take a pee and a coffee anyway. 15 to 20 minutes. perfectly reasonable.

Not all of us drive that way.  I've done -- several times -- Salt Lake City UT to Eastern PA in about 36 hours.  Never do it that way.  New York City to Orlando in 19 hours; don't think so.  Besides, I do most of my traveling on two wheels, not four... but when I need four, it's generally for some rather longer drives than a typical commute.

as technology improves we will probably see battery packs with 300 to 300 miles between charges ( 3 to 4 years away )

It is ramping up fast, very fast.

There's little that I would like to see more than to rid the world of all of the extra CO2 we're pumping into the atmosphere... but there's always a cost, and right now, there's no cleaner fuel technology than hydrogen fuel cells.  When all you're emitting is pure water, I think it's safe to say you're as green as could possibly be.

Would I drive around with a tank full of it?  Yes, in a heartbeat, provided the containment was sound.

Your supercharger?  Powered by what?  The same grid that's now powered by coal, nuclear, gas and oil.  Oh, and a bit of solar and wind, and the odd hydroelectric plant, so it's not entirely bad... but there's impacts from each, and when you consider what it takes to make solar cells, wind turbines and hydroelectric plants, I don't think you're really coming out ahead by that much.

I don't know.  I think the problems run far deeper, and require much more effort to solve, than most people really think about.  The ultimate answer will probably be found long after I'm gone... but in the mean time, I can't see a better option.

Just my humble opinion.  Yours does vary, and I'm sure that there are plenty of other ideas to go around.  Someone will eventually get it right.

[zapta]

To put that sensationalist story into context:
http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/vehicles

Are these 1 year old cars in the $70k - $100K price range?

I doubt it.