Tesla Model S, Third Fire

[mtdoc]

I see this same kind of EV fire hysteria on another forum I frequent.

  " EV ON FIRE! EV ON FIRE"

 I'm dissapointed to see the same EV Chicken Littles here..

EVs are safe and the future.

[tealsuki]

There are a couple of ferraris that just spontaneously combust when you drive them normally ...

as far as the new/old. NONE of the teslas were self igniting ! they were all because of severe crashes !
there is many a petrol car that self ignites because of wear ....

I'm suddenly reminded of that scene from the Sopranos where the kid parks his Hummer on a pile of leaves. Stop me if you see where this is going

[BravoV]

Never underestimate the power, influences and the reach of car dealers associations + competing car makers when they're holding hand together. 

[free_electron]

So you want to keep paying fueling station to fill up on hydrogen ? i'll take the supercharger. free. as in 0 paid.
besides i dont want hydrogen around me. i've seen ion implanters blow up...

Free?  Really?  I find that to be stunning.  If it is now, do you think it will be later?  I'm paying for electric generation for my home; I can't imagine that it's not going to be something you pay for to get around.


There's little that I would like to see more than to rid the world of all of the extra CO2 we're pumping into the atmosphere... but there's always a cost, and right now, there's no cleaner fuel technology than hydrogen fuel cells.  When all you're emitting is pure water, I think it's safe to say you're as green as could possibly be.

Dont forget Elon also owns Solarcity... Their business model os : let us install a solar system on your roof fo free. We'll maintain ot and pump electricity back in the grid. We'll give you part of the money we get from that electricity.
Solarcity has enough installations to let the superchargers be free. As they deploy more installations their profits become larger.
So yes, superchargers are and will always be free. Pure solar power.

As for hydrogen : and how do you think that is produced ? By breaking water in oxygen and hydrogen using electricity... Poof there goes the 'green aspect'. They are using coal and nuclear for that electricity...

[calexanian]

after three hours of non stop driving you want to stretch your legs or take a pee and a coffee anyway. 15 to 20 minutes. perfectly reasonable.

Yep, not a problem. You've just gotta learn a different usage scenario, we are spoiled by 100 years of petrol station infrastructure.
I'd buy a Model S now if I could afford it...

Dave. Next time I go see one of the assembly houses we use which just happens to be across the freeway from the Tesla factory I will go nicely ask them to send you one. What color do you want?

[Whales]

There's little that I would like to see more than to rid the world of all of the extra CO2 we're pumping into the atmosphere... but there's always a cost, and right now, there's no cleaner fuel technology than hydrogen fuel cells.  When all you're emitting is pure water, I think it's safe to say you're as green as could possibly be.

Would I drive around with a tank full of it?  Yes, in a heartbeat, provided the containment was sound.

Hydrogen fuel cells do have the monolithic advantage of their byproduct -- but they also have some serious practical issues.   Have a look at the wiki article on Hydrogen Vehicles.  Namely:

• Low conversion efficiency (to make the fuel)
• Low energy density of H2(liquid) vs Fossil Fuels (liquid)

Eventually hydrogen can be made completely from non-fossil power, so that argument will have to evolve over time.  I'm not against hydrogen fuel cells -- but we really need to consider many of the other alternatives as well.  Checkout the various other types of fuel cell for example. 

Keep in mind that if we find a very efficient way of storing electrical energy, we are almost set.  Electric motors can have very high efficiencies (eg 90%) [^source], which compared to the efficiency of internal combustion & steam engines is amazing.  I'm not sure how efficient Li-ion charge->discharge is -- I assume it is dependant largely on the internal resistance, which is ever being improved.

Inevitable plug: Mr fusion home fusion reactors 

[walshms]

Dont forget Elon also owns Solarcity... Their business model os : let us install a solar system on your roof fo free. We'll maintain ot and pump electricity back in the grid. We'll give you part of the money we get from that electricity.
Solarcity has enough installations to let the superchargers be free. As they deploy more installations their profits become larger.
So yes, superchargers are and will always be free. Pure solar power.

That's a bet I won't make.  I appreciate you're willing to do that, but I'm not.

As for hydrogen : and how do you think that is produced ? By breaking water in oxygen and hydrogen using electricity... Poof there goes the 'green aspect'. They are using coal and nuclear for that electricity...

That same solar could do it too.  Still, that's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.  No matter what you choose, there's always a cost.  What's that old saw..."There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."

Not trying to be difficult here... just trying to encourage some deeper thought.  None of these solutions is perfect.  You have your preference, and I have mine.

[walshms]

Hydrogen fuel cells do have the monolithic advantage of their byproduct -- but they also have some serious practical issues.   Have a look at the wiki article on Hydrogen Vehicles.  Namely:

• Low conversion efficiency (to make the fuel)
• Low energy density of H2(liquid) vs Fossil Fuels (liquid)

Eventually hydrogen can be made completely from non-fossil power, so that argument will have to evolve over time. 

Right.  I think it stands a better chance of being more efficient in the longer term... but that's just my thinking, and my preference.

Keep in mind that if we find a very efficient way of storing electrical energy, we are almost set.  (...)
I'm not sure how efficient Li-ion charge->discharge is -- I assume it is dependant largely on the internal resistance, which is ever being improved.

There have been some pretty interesting developments in Li technology; cells that charge extremely rapidly, offer very high discharge currents, etc.  Great for EVs, and Panasonic would do well to incorporate those improvements if they're viable in larger scale production.

My view of this comes from what I know of chemistry and physics.  I'm not saying I have any answers that someone else doesn't, just that I think that ultimately it's going to be hard to beat fuel cells to power those electric motors.  I wasn't suggesting it would be an easy problem to solve -- but neither has any electric vehicle been easy for anyone to produce and do it well.  Tesla probably does have the best thing going that way at this point... but how long as the EV thing been going on?

One of the densest electron storage mediums around is a molten salt, operating at some pretty horrendous temperatures, developed by Don Sadoway at MIT.  His team is still working on it, and they have made some great headway.  Those could be used to store excess energy from solar, or from the existing grid, and feed it back where and when it's needed; they see it as a great emergency power supply in disasters, something you could haul where it's needed.  I know I never imagined that as a possibility...

[nctnico]

There's little that I would like to see more than to rid the world of all of the extra CO2 we're pumping into the atmosphere... but there's always a cost, and right now, there's no cleaner fuel technology than hydrogen fuel cells.  When all you're emitting is pure water, I think it's safe to say you're as green as could possibly be.

Unfortunately that hydrogen is made from gas/coal directly or via electricity. Either way its extremely inefficient.

@Whales: you are comparing apples & oranges when comparing the efficiency of an electric motor versus combustion engine. Depending on where the electricity is coming from an EV (Tesla S, Leaf, Volt) can produce over 200grams of CO2 per km (if your electricity is coming from coal powered power plants). For comparison: my 14 year old diesel produces about 142 grams of CO2 per km. If you want an EV to be clean you have to source low emission electricity from somewhere.

[ElectroIrradiator]

In the sunnier parts of southern Europe and the US, one m² of non-steerable solar panel can be expected to generate about 1 kWh per day. So a home installation for charging your 85 kWh car battery has to have an area on the order of 85 m², if you wish to be able to fully charge your car once per day.

Note that the average annual electricity consumption for a single household is about 4000 kWh (in Denmark, may be different elsewhere), or 11 kWh/day. A single charge per week for your Tesla S would thus more than double your annual electricity consumption.

Suspect Mr. Musk will start building large solar panel farms in the US deserts in the not too distant future...

[chickenHeadKnob]

The real thing to look out for in Tesla fires or any e-vehicle fires are fires that initiate when the car is parked and charging. I am interested in e-bikes, as teslas are way above my pay grade, and the e-bike community has reported some structure fires from packs (usually Li-poly) from untended charging in garages. In North America attached car garages are very common - I have one, and I will only charge outside the house in a separate "fire bunker" charge station. I am not going to killed in my sleep by my e-bike.

In the mid 90s to 2002 time frame Ford had a problem with ignition switch fires, which typically would ignite after the car/truck was parked many hours. This resulted in quite a few house fires and deaths. see: NYTimes http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/27/automobiles/27FORD.html?_r=0

[EEVblog]

And to put those figures into context, there are 247.9 million gas vehicles on the roads in the US, and only 17,200 model S on the road in the US. So, gas vehicles burned at the rate of 11.8e-6/car/week, while model S burned at 34.9e-6/car/week, or about 3 times as often.

And to put that into perspective again, not a single Tesla has caught fire due to a non-horrific physical accident. But like you said, only 3 data points so far.
So Tesla's catching fire after horrific crashes is nothing but pure sensationalism. You'd expect some to catch on fire, just like cars do.

[EEVblog]

The real thing to look out for in Tesla fires or any e-vehicle fires are fires that initiate when the car is parked and charging.

Once again, lets look at petrol stations:
http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/vehicles/service-station-safety

An estimated 5,020 fires and explosions occurred at public service stations per year from 2004-2008. That means that, on average, one in every 13 service stations experienced a fire. These 7,400 fires caused an annual average of two civilian deaths, 48 civilian injuries and $20 million in property damage.
Of those 5,020 fires, almost two-thirds (61%) involved vehicles. Structure fires accounted for 12% of total incidents but 59% of the direct property damage.
Twelve percent of fire incidents at service stations were outside trash or rubbish fires.

[EEVblog]

Dave. Next time I go see one of the assembly houses we use which just happens to be across the freeway from the Tesla factory I will go nicely ask them to send you one. What color do you want?

Red goes faster, thanks.

[EEVblog]

Yeah, but you'd also probably buy a De Lorean if you could afford it. Now we're talking usage scenarios.

If you really want to talk usage scenario's, my lifestyle is ideally suited to a fully electric car in almost every way. For me, my next car choice (not far away given my current POS) is pretty obvious, albeit for a matter of money.

[Whales]

@Whales: you are comparing apples & oranges when comparing the efficiency of an electric motor versus combustion engine. Depending on where the electricity is coming from an EV (Tesla S, Leaf, Volt) can produce over 200grams of CO2 per km (if your electricity is coming from coal powered power plants). For comparison: my 14 year old diesel produces about 142 grams of CO2 per km. If you want an EV to be clean you have to source low emission electricity from somewhere.

Clarification:  Electric motor > Internal combustion for efficiency in terms of motivePower:totalPowerConsumed, not in terms of motivePower:CO2released.  Fuel cells as an electrical storage adds a inefficient layer which severely counteracts gains from electric motor efficiency, hence my stab at them.

I'm being agnostic about where the energy comes from: depending on how far your live from what type of energy source you use, this will vary greatly.  I'm hopeful it will get better over time.

[SgtRock]

Greetings EEVBees:

--After having reviewed the article again, I can find nothing sensationalist about it. The Press cannot report only the good stories about Musk and Tesla Motors, both of which are in the news frequently, and this particular article was not especially negative, that I can see, but it is news, and does affect stock prices and sales. I do not think many people were on the verge of thinking "Duh, luckily there are no fires in liquid fueled vehicles." If one is interested in EVs, then one should probably read any and all articles, leaving aside the obvious screeds.

--Please feel free to quote any portion of the article, that seems sensationalist, unfair, or pointedly negative. The fact that the article exists is not proof of bias. And, I rather doubt that this was published by a bunch of religionists who have an irrational bias against the EV, or that the writer was paid off, or intimidated by the Car Dealers, Oil Companies, etc. Get real!

--"The second fire occurred after an inebriated driver “lost control and crashed into the lining of the gazebo…” causing the vehicle to bounce, jump a curb and ”demolished a part of the electrified fence” before ”crashing into a tree. “  In that case, the Model S immediately caught fire. In both of these initial incidents, the end result being a fire was not an unexpected result given the situations." Not exactly what I would call sensationalist.

--It is likely that these accidents are no more that a bump in the road, so to speak, for Tesla Motors, and provide valuable information for engineering changes, as happened to Henry Ford and his early cars. There have been many interesting and informative responses in this thread. Thanks All.

“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”
Nikola Tesla 1856 - 1943

[chickenHeadKnob]

The real thing to look out for in Tesla fires or any e-vehicle fires are fires that initiate when the car is parked and charging.

Once again, lets look at petrol stations:

Yes, but irrelevant, as I don't sleep over a petrol station. Here is the thing I learned in my past life as an aviator: if there is any cheap and reasonable thing you can do whilst still on the ground, to make your flying safer, DO IT!. I flew sailplanes and hang gliders and I am no safety ninny, not an adrenalin junkie either so I was constantly assessing risk. A soaring pilot is making a potentially life ending decision every 2 seconds or so. My airtime was >500 hours - in the intermediate range for soaring pilots which means I have made many many risk choices. I looked at the accident rates for my fellow pilots and there was just no way my hobby was as safe as "driving out to the gliding club". A commonly uttered but completely erroneous trope. This didn't stop me from flying but it made me examine everything I was doing. One day as I was inspecting my used (but still fairly new to me) hang glider I noticed the right wing spar had been repaired after a crash. I had not paid attention to this when I had noticed the repair on previous inspections because I did not know what I was looking at. I had flown for about 10 hours with this dodgy spar. I was kicking my self for my stupidity because it only cost me $170 to replace it with a new spar. Now it is unlikely the repaired spar would have folded up in flight unless I subjected the craft to high negative G's, but still it would have been a severe consequence "black swan" event that was completely avoidable!. I feel the same way about charging large Lithium packs in my house. Some lithium chemistries are safer than others but the safest lithium battery is one that is charging outside my house. It is interesting to peruse the post fire pack autopsy threads on the  endless-sphere forum, there is always a reason for thermal runaway but ultimately best risk response that I know is to convert a high consequence event to a low consequence event.


It seems that every thread on e-vehicles is subject to a certain level of politicized  angst by some people who feel their world order is threatened somehow. For the record I am not one of them, just the opposite, I am an e-bike proponent. I also recognize that the world is at the undulating plateau phase of oil production, as predicted by some of the more sane and knowledgable voices in the peak oil community. It just means those of us who are e-mobile are ahead of the curve, the rest will join eventually.

[amyk]

The sample size is really small, but the statistics so far are that 2/3, or 67% of Tesla fires are the result of FOD. I wonder what that rate is for regular cars... and what actually ignited this time, since it didn't look like the batteries caught fire. From the pictures, if one weren't aware this was an electric car, it looks more like a severe engine fire.

[Robomeds]

The lithium ion batteries installed on the Boeing 787 are inherently unsafe, says Elon Musk 

Tesla's Elon Musk Has a Solution to Boeing's 787 Dreamliner 

Funny thing that.

I think Tesla's large, flat bottom battery may be a bad idea in the end for the exact reasons we are seeing.  You have simply created a large target on the bottom of the car.


Point of personal interest:  I turned down a job with the company that makes the 787 battery.  I know the lead engineer there.  I also have a few friends at Tesla and went to school with the CTO (not that I suspect either one of us would recognize the other).

[Robomeds]

-quote "In other Tesla news, the EV automaker announced that battery supplier Panasonic will soon be shipping even more of its little cylindrical lithium-ion battery cells to Tesla. The expanded deal (not in any way surprising) means Panasonic will "supply nearly 2 billion [automotive-grade] cells over the course of four years," destined for the Model S and Model X. Panasonic cells have already moved the Teslas of the world over 130 million customer miles in Roadsters and Model S EVs since way back, the companies said."

Meanwhile Tesla stock takes a 14% hit after "Elon Musk revealed that the firm doesn't have enough batteries for its Model S"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/shares-of-tesla-motors-plunge-after-company-reports-battery-shortage-disappointing-3q-results/2013/11/06/0bdbd5a2-4729-11e3-95a9-3f15b5618ba8_story.html

The real stock hit will be the day the tax payers of the US and California are no longer required to subsidize Tesla.  Tesla is doing a brilliant job of spending other people's money (tax payers).  Sorry to bring politics into it. 

[zapta]

About 15,000 ICE vehicles catch fire in the UK every year.

15000 fires / 28,700,000 gas cars =0.000523
3 fires / 21,000 Teslas = 0.000143

Teslas catch fire less than non-electric cars. At worst it appears that some fire departments are unaware that they should not puncture the battery pack. In all cases the passenger compartment was fully protected and there was no explosion.

Try comparing to new sedans in the Tesla's price range. Numbers will be very different.

[zapta]

The real stock hit will be the day the tax payers of the US and California are no longer required to subsidize Tesla.  Tesla is doing a brilliant job of spending other people's money (tax payers).  Sorry to bring politics into it.

Tesla is heavily subsidized, directly and indirectly. Direct subsidies to the company, tax breaks to buyers, free fuel (e.g. charging station at work), HOV lane stickers ($10k value), and more. A guy at work has one and he brags about these 'savings'.  This is not politics, it's reality.

On the technical side it is a major achievement, different in almost every aspect. Very roomy, huge trunks (2), large LCD as a console, internet connected and more.

[G7PSK]

Fires and roll overs seem to be a particularly American thing, very few cars catch fire in the UK ( I have seen only one and that was 50 years ago) My uncle hit a railway sleeper that fell off the truck in front of him when he was traveling at 60 MPH the whole front of the car was destroyed including front suspension but the car did not catch fire the car was a Ford petrol powered as well.

[free_electron]

In the sunnier parts of southern Europe and the US, one m² of non-steerable solar panel can be expected to generate about 1 kWh per day. So a home installation for charging your 85 kWh car battery has to have an area on the order of 85 m², if you wish to be able to fully charge your car once per day.

Note that the average annual electricity consumption for a single household is about 4000 kWh (in Denmark, may be different elsewhere), or 11 kWh/day. A single charge per week for your Tesla S would thus more than double your annual electricity consumption.

Suspect Mr. Musk will start building large solar panel farms in the US deserts in the not too distant future...

That is not required and not the way solarcity tackles the problem.
Everybody hid own solarcell is uneconomic. The startup for an isntallation is too high . Cost decreases with square footage of the installation. So a single 10000 square meter installation is much cheaper than 100 installations each of 100 square meters.

Here is how they are tackling the problem.
They approach companies, schools, public works that have large roof surfaces or parking lots.
They offer to install the installation and maintenance for free. Parking lots get an awning like structure so the cars are in the shade , further reducing power consumption as the AC needs to run less. Same with buildings. The panels are offset from the roof.
Solarcity sells the generated electricity to the grid. That is their revenue. Part of the collected money goes to the person giving them the roof or parking area. So for the building /parking owner it is a pure win situation. At the end of the month they get a cheque. This can be used to offset their electricity bill.
Solarcity does the initial investment and rakes in money from power companies. The installations typically pay for themselves in 3 years. Meanwhile solarcity can also sell green certificates and co offset stuff to companies that need em for tax purposes.

You can see it as a bit of a tax shiffling scam, but hey, the governments allow it. Their loss.

So, now we have a pool of essentially free electricity (to produce) and we get money from people that dont have their own installation and are not self sufficient in terms of production and consumption.

Part of that free energy use used to power the superchargers. Since Tesla and Solarcity are owned by the same guy... Piece of cake. He can give away free power, it is an incentive to buy his cars.

So he not only sells the razors, he's giving away free razorblades. (As opposed to selling them)
So this is where the system is being flipped upside down.

The current system is: You buy a car from a car maker, give money to a dealer , have service done at a dealer , keep burning oil. This unholy trinity makes damns sure not to damage their little club.
They sell razors , but only to assigned channels that pick up part of your money, and the razorblades are controlled by a cartel call OPEC.
Neither one is interested inchanging their business model or producing more efficient cars consuming less as it eats into their profits.

The only reason traditional car makers are making a half arsed electric is because lawmakers mandate that by 2015 every manufacturer selling cars needs to have at least one electric vehicle. If it were not for that law nothing would be done. They are not interested because it eats into their razor-razerblade-licenced dealer trinity.

This is what Tesla is now attempting to flip upside down.
Sell the car , power is free, and we kill of the man in the middle. More profit for Tesla, less cost for the buyer.
This whole car dealership stuff is annoying. I can only buy a car from xyz and need to get it serviced there in order to maintain warranty (there is now a law that blocks the warranty clause, fortunately)
All that guy does is receive the car, remove the wrapping, wash it and takes part of the money i fork over. I have no problem paying a mechanic to repair my car , i have a problem paying some dude with a parkinglot that adds no value to what i buy. I'd rather buy from a guy selling all brands.

So that is why in texas they are blocking tesla from selling. The car dealers association sees the dark cloud coming. They are going away.

An EV also requires virtually no scheduled maintenance. Apart from Tires, brakes and washer fluid nothing needs to be done...

That is what the established model is scared of. If EV's work their business model collapses and they have no way to change it as they are interdependent.

So that is why the traditional car makers do such a poor job.
-Let's limit to 75 miles range so nobody will take these serious
-Let's make em all boxy and nerdy and goofy looking so nobody will buy em
-Let's make em fabulously overpriced (38000$ for a dinky nissan leaf, you can get a big fat BMW or AUdi for that price)
-Le'ts not invest in battery technology.. If it advances too far we are only killing ourselves.
-let's comply with the law, but only at the bare minimum and make it very unattractive

We'll wait and see. If Tesla pulls it off the traditional car makers will be in deep trouble and the middle east can go back to building sand castles.
Any car maker not having serious development started will fall behind.

Toyota and Daimler have caught on. They partner with Tesla. The A class and Smart cars are available today and the B class is coming next year. Equipped with the Tesla drive train. The Camry and Rav4 are available with Tesla drive train.
Industrial vehicle makers also caught on...
Panasonic also caught on. They got a massive order in for cells, way over current capacity and are building a mega plant that will double the worlds production of cells

If you are interested in the battery technology: go read the Tesla patents.
Even though Tesla always shows the standard 18650 cell, they are different. They have the same form factor. A normal laptop cell has 53 components (gaskets, sealants, electrodes, casing discharge circuit board etc. The tesla cell has 4... And the chemistry is slightly different too.

Automotive liion batteries are currently at a pricepoint of 500$ per kilowatthour. Tesla is at 200$ per kilowatt hour.. And probably below that. So they are on track to be able to release a 30.000$ car with 300 mile range within the next few years . A pricepoint where the other guys can't get..

Traditional carmakers will have to step up their game or they will go the way of the dodo.

Of course, tesla may still fail. But at least they have started an attempt and they are throwing everything they got at it. They have top notch designers and engineers and an excellent pool to fish from. So they have a serious chance of actually pulling this off.

Standing at the wayside and looking at it , doing nothing, is not the way forward. Only the daring and innovative will go forward.
Traditional car makers are not innovative. What is the difference between last years model and this years model? It's got two extra cupholders and there is a new color available... Has it gotten better fuel economy ? No. Can the gps tell the car you are gome and send the command to open the garage door ? No. This last thing may sound as a stupid example, but think about it. All cars these days have nav systems and a door transponder. Yet nobody has thought addint a few lines of code... If current position=home postion and car closes in then send commnad to open door.
It's stupid, but why not ? None of the stuff is integrated. Car makers buy modules and components from different sources and nothing really can work together.
Besides, we still operate a car with the same pedals, levers, buttons and dials as 150 years ago ... Come on... 150 years of progress and this is the best you can do ? If cars progressed at the speed of computers we'd all be zooming along , jetson style... Yet we are stuck in a cloud of smoke , perpetually paying for a distillate of dinosaur fat...

I really hope that Tesla is the catalyst that will give the established , complacent and lethargic, car u distry a swift kick in the pants and shove em into the footnotes of technological history.

Funny thing is that the first cars were actually electric ! There was even a famous belgian electric car that set many a record. (La jamais contente)All killed off because some farmer found a black tar like flammable substance...

I'm not waiting any longer. The Tesla is one hell of a technological jump , both as a car , and as a propulsion method. Mid december i will bid big-oil and the lethargic dinosaurs adieu.