Author Topic: Millstoning in Electronics?  (Read 5906 times)

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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2023, 07:17:18 pm »
Now we did have 'That Guy' who got passed around the engineering shop like a hot potato as EVERYONE found him to be a hard of thinking, impossible to work with, oxygen thief, but as I say a risk you take (And everyone screws up hiring sometimes), he was gone after 6 months.

And his name was "Faringdon"

Oh no for him it was only a week before he left  :-DD  See

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2023, 07:24:03 pm »
Quote
Millstoning

You like that word. Enough to use it twelve times in a single post, anyway. But AFAIK it's not a common usage (and I would be mega-surprised if it were particularly relevant to SMPS), so I wonder if you've got a bet somewhere that you can get some obscure term to propagate around t'web.
Yep. I can’t even find reference to this usage. Not in a dictionary, not on web searches… if it is an existing usage, it’s an extremely obscure one.

I observed that "millstoning" is odd usage, but the noun "millstone" is part of an idiom in the UK and US. Prefixing a search with "define" seems to work, e.g.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=define+millstone gives
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/millstone
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/millstone

Quote
Not that it matters since the post itself is nonsense anyway.

Colour me surprised.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline tooki

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2023, 07:44:58 pm »
Quote
Millstoning

You like that word. Enough to use it twelve times in a single post, anyway. But AFAIK it's not a common usage (and I would be mega-surprised if it were particularly relevant to SMPS), so I wonder if you've got a bet somewhere that you can get some obscure term to propagate around t'web.
Yep. I can’t even find reference to this usage. Not in a dictionary, not on web searches… if it is an existing usage, it’s an extremely obscure one.

I observed that "millstoning" is odd usage, but the noun "millstone" is part of an idiom in the UK and US. Prefixing a search with "define" seems to work, e.g.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=define+millstone gives
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/millstone
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/millstone
I know. To call a burdensome thing a millstone is a known usage. But the verb “millstoning” I can’t find any reference to.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2023, 07:47:52 pm »
Quote
Not that it matters since the post itself is nonsense anyway.
Thanks,
I have seen a senior SMPS designer get millstoned......then because he wasnt able to concentrate on his work....a power supply went into testing, and 4 million pounds worth of radio test data had to be scrapped as the SMPS went unstable.
Millstoning, i assure you, is very real.
I don’t doubt that it has occurred that an engineer has been saddled with a useless underling.

But I do doubt that it’s done deliberately for the reasons you claim, and that it’s got anything specifically to do with the SMPS industry.
 
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Offline newbrain

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2023, 08:27:28 pm »
I have nothing to contribute to the thread, I'm here just for getting the free "thanks"!
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2023, 08:27:54 pm »
Quote
Millstoning

You like that word. Enough to use it twelve times in a single post, anyway. But AFAIK it's not a common usage (and I would be mega-surprised if it were particularly relevant to SMPS), so I wonder if you've got a bet somewhere that you can get some obscure term to propagate around t'web.
Yep. I can’t even find reference to this usage. Not in a dictionary, not on web searches… if it is an existing usage, it’s an extremely obscure one.

I observed that "millstoning" is odd usage, but the noun "millstone" is part of an idiom in the UK and US. Prefixing a search with "define" seems to work, e.g.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=define+millstone gives
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/millstone
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/millstone
I know. To call a burdensome thing a millstone is a known usage. But the verb “millstoning” I can’t find any reference to.

A modern truism is that "all nouns can be verbed". It is Saturday, therefore I dislike that.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2023, 08:31:22 pm »
The answer to it is to refuse to do it. You are an engineer not a teacher.
If the "new" engineer wants to learn then go to Uni like the rest of us did.
...

Oh come on, what fantasy world are you living in? University gives you the basics. You recruit graduates on the basis of potential and train them up to useful and productive engineers. Staff development is the price you pay for your company having a future.

No no no.

You wait for your competition to train them, and then poach them.

Foolproof. Isn't it?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2023, 08:32:51 pm »
A modern truism is that "all nouns can be verbed". It is Saturday, therefore I dislike that.
Of course. I’m not even saying it’s wrong to do so. All I’m saying is that the claimed particular idiomatic usage (of the verb supposedly meaning to burden a good employee with a bad one) is very specific and unknown.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2023, 08:36:14 pm »
Now we did have 'That Guy' who got passed around the engineering shop like a hot potato as EVERYONE found him to be a hard of thinking, impossible to work with, oxygen thief, but as I say a risk you take (And everyone screws up hiring sometimes), he was gone after 6 months.

And his name was "Faringdon"

Oh no for him it was only a week before he left  :-DD  See

Ooh, that's pointed to the point.

Just to make sure that doesn't get bigfoot22'ed, here's an archival copy...

Hi,
I recently finished an SMPS design and build project,  so when   that finished I put my CV on the web……the market seemed very very buoyant.
Loads of  companies with SMPS projects and  various Electronics projects were contacting me for interview availability. Then I interviewed at a place who said they wanted multiple SMPS’s designed.
It seemed great, and £55k salary.
At the interview, the boss told me (with a steely grin)…”if you take the job, then you should never leave”.

Anyway, they gave me the job and I started. For the first two days  they had me sat in the office, and told me just to read my company employment manual. Then after two days, they gave me a computer, which had limited access to their projects. (I found some “test” schems, but no specs, and no BOMs, and the “test” schems had no component values or part numbers with them).
Anyway, there was still no talk of work that they needed me to do…just vague murmurings of vague jobs which might need doing at some point. I tried to get the spec off them for a current source which they had which needed production pot tweaking, but they woudln’t give me the spec for it. I also  asked for a schem of an SMPS which they were currently doing EMC testing on, but the manager , grinning, shook his head, and said “you don’t want to see a schem”.

Anyway, after 7 working days of being sat in that office, and not being tasked with any work, I decided, that this was a job that involved just sitting around “just-in-case” any work might turn up. It seemed odd that they had said I should “never leave”, since would they want to pay me forever to do nothing?
Anyway….even though I started mid October, they had actually said they woudlnt pay me till end of November, but would backdate the pay to mid-october. I strongly doubted that they would pay me at all..specially since I wasn’t doing anything.

So after work on the 7th  (non) working day, in the evening, I wrote them an email saying I woudlnt be coming back in, and asked them not to bother paying me, and apologised for any inconvenience.
I decided instead to put my CV back on the web, and see if I could get into one of the great many opportunites that  had been  around before I took the “do-nothing” job.
Anyway, this was a few days ago…and not only have all the opportunites that were previously around dryed up, but even worse, is that the “do-nothing” company are still trying to recruit for their role, and are telling employment agencies not to send my CV, since I “ just  cleared off”.
This is meaning that these employment agencies are not keen to consider my CV for other electronics jobs…also, when I go for a job, they find out, and tell the employer not to employ me because I “just cleared off”, from the previous place.

Also, to make things worse, my previous job was at a start-up, and I wasn’t payed, so was out of the tax system for 6 months…and companies seem to find out about this , and it really puts them off me.

How do you get round this?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2023, 08:49:33 pm »
Now we did have 'That Guy' who got passed around the engineering shop like a hot potato as EVERYONE found him to be a hard of thinking, impossible to work with, oxygen thief, but as I say a risk you take (And everyone screws up hiring sometimes), he was gone after 6 months.

And his name was "Faringdon"

Oh no for him it was only a week before he left  :-DD  See

Ooh, that's pointed to the point.

Just to make sure that doesn't get bigfoot22'ed, here's an archival copy...
Eh, it’s never been treez’ style to delete thing! They’ve always stood by their writings, loony as they may be…
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2023, 09:16:49 pm »
Sure the term is kinda dumb, but hey you never know how dumb all these HR terms can get anyway. We probably ain't seen nothing yet.
But anyway, what the OP describes is a pretty common management technique.

You can't blame companies for doing that. They need to secure their future and make sure the know-how is passed from senior engineers to junior ones.
But management is a tricky business and it's often hard to do this in the best way possible, not annoying the heck out of seniors and making them feel like they do all the work with no recognition, while working themselves on being replaced. That's an uncomfortable position to be in and most managers don't know how to handle it. It's tricky.

Add to the mix HR people that only see all this as written objectives and figures in Excel sheets, making managers' lives every bit as miserable as the senior engineers' lives that are subject to that.

Of course some people actually like teaching others and passing their knowledge on, and these will be fine with it.
Others do not.
But ultimately, when you reach "senior" status in any company, it's usually time to reflect on what you want to do next and act on it. If you play it all passively, you'll get miserable, because getting senior as an employee doesn't mean you've reached your goals and can rest - it usually means you need to move on to something or somewhere else, otherwise it's a pretty sure path to misery.

 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2023, 09:56:23 pm »
The answer to it is to refuse to do it. You are an engineer not a teacher.
If the "new" engineer wants to learn then go to Uni like the rest of us did.
...

Oh come on, what fantasy world are you living in? University gives you the basics. You recruit graduates on the basis of potential and train them up to useful and productive engineers. Staff development is the price you pay for your company having a future.


No no no.

You wait for your competition to train them, and then poach them.

Foolproof. Isn't it?

The good ones are going to want ongoing career and skills development, the others, you don't want. If you don't have a decent system in place they'll leave again, or never join you in the first place. Then you're stuck with hiring the ones with, oh must be 30'odd by now, companies on their CVs.  ;)

It's a competitive world if you want the best.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 10:00:40 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline Gregg

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2023, 10:35:43 pm »
In reference to grindstones, the best advice is: "illegitimi non corundum"
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2023, 11:09:28 pm »
The good ones are going to want ongoing career and skills development, the others, you don't want. If you don't have a decent system in place they'll leave again, or never join you in the first place. Then you're stuck with hiring the ones with, oh must be 30'odd by now, companies on their CVs.  ;)

It's a competitive world if you want the best.

I was lucky (but I think I biassed things in my favour) to mostly work for good companies on interesting topics.

I'm not aware of having worked with anybody with so many companies on their CV, unless they were contractors. In the latter case, I didn't care, but I did look at the companies and experience.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2023, 06:18:23 am »
Just to make sure that doesn't get bigfoot22'ed, here's an archival copy...

 :-DD :-DD

You made a new verb on a Saturday  :palm:

A modern truism is that "all nouns can be verbed". It is Saturday, therefore I dislike that.

I stumbled on the deleting phenomenon only yesterday due to what was written in the last Sherlocked thread, and had a good laugh. It does proof how strange he is. bigfoot22 that is. I wonder why he blew up. Sure there was a some stab and counter stab going on between him and others, including me, but not that bad, was it?

Sorry for going off topic, but hey nonsense thread anyway.

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2023, 08:12:56 am »
One of my clients hired a fellow with a Masters Degree in electrical engineering. When he started he was clueless - a testament to degrees that didn't teach him much. The guy didn't even know how to do a Google search, let alone how a bloody diode worked. But he was a nice chap and I made time for him. I charge by the hour and the CEO was happy for me to take him under my wing, solving problems and doing their design work (hardware and firmware) whilst teaching him and providing plenty of advice along the way.

Lo and behold! He has become a fairly competent engineer for his age and limited experience. He can now write code and understand how circuits work. He can also do research. He is now learning to use Altium.

What's in it for me? Not the money as much as I mentored him and helped him. The CEO told me recently that he greatly appreciated the effort I put in to "get them out of trouble" and the help for that young bloke. A great compliment. Electronic stuff we created create over the years is here today, gone tomorrow - it is the nature of the beast. What's the point of retiring or dropping dead when you have left no legacy from your work, other than maybe a few building blocks? The most important legacy from a career might be those you have influenced over the years.... and that includes helping out young inexperienced engineers. 
 
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Online AVGresponding

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2023, 08:18:19 am »
To call a burdensome thing a millstone is a known usage. But the verb “millstoning” I can’t find any reference to.

Perhaps he's filed a copyright on the term, and intends to start demanding royalties once everyone gets used to using it   :popcorn:
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2023, 09:49:19 am »
I've been both the junior and the senior in that kind of mentoring/millstoning situation myself.

As far as I can tell, there are only two cases when mentoring turns into millstoning:
  • The junior is uninterested or incapable of learning from the senior
  • The senior is uninterested or incapable of mentoring the junior
I've met both types, and they cannot be helped.  Such a junior is not employable in that job (so only employable if they have sufficient skill and experience to do some other job), and the senior can only be employed for tasks where they are easily replaceable.

Either one of them can be the proverbial millstone.  It is noteworthy that seniors who refuse to mentor juniors (typically because juniors will eventually take their jobs, and they want to maximize job security) are easier to replace than the ones who are able to mentor juniors.

(A third case is also possible: both are interested and capable, but their personalities clash too much for it to work.  While social details can be overcome, things like work ethic and tool use and organization can be showstoppers.  This case is for a capable manager to resolve.)

Using a dead weight as a social tactic to keep a senior stuck at a certain task is detrimental to the company.  Of course, that does not mean that sociopathic middle managers won't do it; but it does mean that when a Cxx-level executive does it, the owners of the company should be aware of the damage that does to the operations of the company.  In many legislations, contracts between companies that keep an employee hobbled like that are quite illegal, too.

The reason is that a company does not pay its employees to be there; it pays for the results of employees work.  Hobbling that up, a company is only making sure they extract less useful work from that employee than they otherwise could.

At the very thin spike at the top of the expertise hierarchy, we have people who may be employed simply because their knowhow is such that having them working for a competitor may be catastrophic to the company.  The solution there is not social games either, but simply benefits, cold hard cash and well-written agreements both the company and the expert can agree to.  A typical benefit in the software engineering world is paying them for 100% of their time, but letting them work on their own (often required to be free/libre projects, to avoid competing with the company, and specific subfields/software targets ruled out) for 10%-50% of the time.
(Because the companies so often turn out to greatly benefit from such work nevertheless, it is becoming more and more common for companies to offer that extra time for use in ones own projects, for even "lesser" experts in their software fields.)

As I am not an EE, I do not know whether similar practices exist in the electronics design field – YET.  For certain, the amount of dedicated chips and even SMPS controllers is such that if I was the owner of such a company, I for sure would like my top designers to spend at least 10% of their work time on average experimenting with new chips and designs, just to make it more likely that they'll discover new, cheaper, more effective ways of using available stuff in the products the company designs.  (There is also historical precedent across industries showing this is worth the expense for the company on the average.)

Of course, nowadays the problem is that if an approach makes 5× the profit in a year, but there is an alternate approach that provides 1× the profit in this quarter, the this-quarter solution is always selected.  Very few care about long term, and instead live and die quarter-by-quarter.)

In Faringdon's case, I'd take a hard, objective look at the situation, and follow the money.  It is extremely unlikely any corporate mill-stoning is taking place.  If it indeed is happening, then it is much more likely that someone is defrauding the company, or making illegal agreements; similar to anticompetitive agreements among companies wrt. employee hiring practices.  In all western countries, including the UK, there are government agencies who would be very, very interesting to hear the details if such agreements actually have been made.  (This obviously includes the case where Faringdon is just reading the situation wrong; for example, misunderstanding a minor personality clash that can be overcome, as something more significant.)

In the real world, especially here in the Finland, there is basically never such an agreement, and the junior just turns out to be a (close) relative of (a close friend of) someone higher up in the company hierarchy.  Then, anonymously divulging the situation to owners/shareholders (if Cxx-level officers are involved), or to Cxx-level (if it is just middle-management that is using the company as their personal cash-cow), carefully but neutrally documenting the situation and especially the loss of productivity and the hit it will do on the company bottom line, is the best course of action in my opinion.

(Others do recommend just taking your leave as fast as you can, but personally, I do get a kick out of making such exploiters essentially unemployable.  It brings me joy, knowing that parasites failed to prosper.  Others do volunteer work, I like to make life difficult for those who exploit others.)
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2023, 12:26:10 pm »
As far as I can tell, there are only two cases when mentoring turns into millstoning:
  • The junior is uninterested or incapable of learning from the senior
  • The senior is uninterested or incapable of mentoring the junior
I've met both types, and they cannot be helped.  Such a junior is not employable in that job (so only employable if they have sufficient skill and experience to do some other job), and the senior can only be employed for tasks where they are easily replaceable.

Either one of them can be the proverbial millstone.  It is noteworthy that seniors who refuse to mentor juniors (typically because juniors will eventually take their jobs, and they want to maximize job security) are easier to replace than the ones who are able to mentor juniors.

(A third case is also possible: both are interested and capable, but their personalities clash too much for it to work.  While social details can be overcome, things like work ethic and tool use and organization can be showstoppers.  This case is for a capable manager to resolve.)
A few more cases are possible, like having both a junior who is uninterested or incapable of learning from the senior and a senior who is uninterested or incapable of mentoring the junior. Of course, that’s a sign of wildly incompetent (or corrupt) management — I can’t imagine any scenario in which that combination of employees somehow improves!
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2023, 12:55:44 pm »
The word used in Finnish for this idiom more commonly than millstone, is riippakivi, by the way; the best translation to English in my opinion is "dead weight", but it literally translates to "weighing-down stone".  Millstone is sort of old, so you can expect anyone over 30 to understand the reference, but even the young'uns will get "riippakivi".

As far as I can tell, there are only two cases when mentoring turns into millstoning ...
(A third case is also possible: both are interested and capable, but their personalities clash too much for it to work.)
A few more cases are possible, like having both a junior who is uninterested or incapable of learning from the senior and a senior who is uninterested or incapable of mentoring the junior.
True, a stone mentoring a pebble how to get lodged in a shoe :D

When a workplace gets that dysfunctional, better get the heck outta there.  I've been in organizations where people just weren't fired, ever; when they were too much to handle, they were promoted sideways or upwards just so they'd annoy someone else instead, or otherwise socially pressured and gossiped about so that "they'd get the drift" and quit themselves.  The real-world tales of ostensibly "corruption-free Finland" I could tell are pretty much unbelievable.

Here in Finland, it is typical that when statistics show results embarrassing to decision-makers, the action taken is to stop making the statistics.

D1: I've read so much about the dangers of alcohol, I've decided to stop.

D2: Drinking, you mean?

D1: No, reading.
 
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Offline FaringdonTopic starter

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2023, 03:02:47 pm »
Quote
When a workplace gets that dysfunctional, better get the heck outta there.
Thanks i agree, but watch the poisonous reference you get when you do ship out.
'Perfection' is the enemy of 'perfectly satisfactory'
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2023, 05:04:05 pm »
when treez posts and the posse shows up


 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2023, 06:04:08 pm »
Back in the day, millstones were the way to travel. Nowadays, in this thread "millstoned" seems to be the way to ... travel?

The notion that young fresh talent is better than experienced engineers is the usual HR and management mistake of not understanding knowledge workers.
I've mentored a few EE's including one that was considering buy a soldering iron for home use. He'd never tinkered. Another two were on their cellphones texting all the time.
The "gimme the answer" generation, from watching a lot of TV, Internet, video games, using google - they can't take the pain of not knowing something and having to figure it out.

Let the company save money- hire cheaper, less experienced and then spend years doing product development with no results.
 
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Offline FaringdonTopic starter

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2023, 09:25:25 pm »
Quote
Another two were on their cellphones texting all the time.
Thanks, years ago i had one that would do 5 mins of soldering, then revert to making a big solder pool lake on the ESD mat, or going on his mobile phone.
But He was lauded as the new Messiah by the company owner.
The owner could see him distrubing me all the time, but encouraged him to pick my brains out at every  opportunity...my work inevitably suffered delays as a result of being his "servant" mentor, and the owner would lambast me for that.

...the millstone  insisted on sitting on the lab table and making me work through him...but eg once he refused to twist his signal wires like  i told him...so i then had to come in for 20 hours over the weeked (unpayed), and rebuild what he had done for a customer demo on Monday, as his board didnt work.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 09:28:40 pm by Faringdon »
'Perfection' is the enemy of 'perfectly satisfactory'
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Millstoning in Electronics?
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2023, 10:38:05 pm »
Quote
Another two were on their cellphones texting all the time.
Thanks, years ago i had one that would do 5 mins of soldering, then revert to making a big solder pool lake on the ESD mat, or going on his mobile phone.
But He was lauded as the new Messiah by the company owner.
The owner could see him distrubing me all the time, but encouraged him to pick my brains out at every  opportunity...my work inevitably suffered delays as a result of being his "servant" mentor, and the owner would lambast me for that.

When you find yourself in situations like that, just run away. Whatever the reason - even if you are partially responsible, be it due to your behavior, not setting limits, whatever... this can't end well.
When a company does that, it's usually to show you that you don't matter anymore. Get the hint and go.
 
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