Wankery Product Of the Month - Energized Drinking Water Fountain

[HLA-27b]

It has everything!!!
All sorts of Scyentificial energies and auras to completely energize revitalize and purify your filthy stinking soul. And all of this for mere steenking cash!

Gaia's Fountain of Life, a patented system of Vibrant Vital Water, is an energized drinking water fountain and functional art piece which is designed to generate highly energized, restructured, revitalized drinking water. It is uniquely designed to clean both physical and vibrational contaminants from the water.

Wankery Baby ... Oh Yeah

[AntiProtonBoy]

This reminds of the Radium water fad during pre-war era, minus the new age hippy crap. Drinking Radium water... now that was crazy.

[Zad]

We could maybe do with a sub-forum for snake-oil products. I have an absolute corker, but I don't want to hijack anyone else's thread.

(If anyone is interested, search Ebay for electric supercharger)

[HLA-27b]

Oh the Electric Supercharger! Post right away.

[Uncle Vernon]

they are perennial

I'll use one with my electric supercharger  http://www.gaprojects.com/supercharger/supercharger.htm gazillions of regulated horsepowers!   UV shakes his head in amazement at things people will bill buy.

[IanB]

they are perennial

I'll use one with my electric supercharger  http://www.gaprojects.com/supercharger/supercharger.htm gazillions of regulated horsepowers!   UV shakes his head in amazement at things people will bill buy.

I followed the link to the GA Supercharger project looking for a laugh, and was amazed to find nothing to laugh at. The engineering descriptions are sound and measure zero on the bullshit meter (I'm a chemical engineer and know the theory). All that can be said about the technical stuff is it is pitched at a layman's level with a degree of obvious simplification. However, while proof of efficacy cannot be taken from a description alone, there is nothing obviously wrong or fanciful that I can detect in their material. Their claims for performance increases are modest and plausible, and the expected gains are described with an apparent honesty regarding the limits of what can be achieved in such a system.

I my estimation that supercharger project has every appearance of being genuine. In fact, if anyone had an older car out of warranty that they didn't mind messing with, I think it would be a fascinating project to try. Just don't expect to improve your fuel consumption. Here is their summary in that regard:

We were hoping for some improved fuel consumption results in certain instances but no significant improvements could be reported. In practice the supercharger is a performance enhancement that encourages spirited driving leading to increased consumption when employed frequently.

Oh well... 

[Uncle Vernon]

I followed the link to the GA Supercharger project looking for a laugh, and was amazed to find nothing to laugh at.

Convincing aren't they. 

"Mechanically driven superchargers typically require 10 to 15 kW (13 to 20 HP) to drive them. That would require an electric motor 10 times more powerful than a starter motor. "

Assuming say 75% efficiency how many amps at 12VDC is that sucker going to draw?

The GA Projects electric supercharger uses an axial impellor (sic) and a barrel type fan with diffuser to form a very efficient compromise between axial and radial compressors.

Now the funny stuff starts axial fans as compressors. If this was true similar fan in your heater airbox would blow your windshield out on MAX.  Fan curve anyone???

Comparatively little energy is required to power an electric supercharger for any given amount of boost making them very efficient.

Any given amount of boost eh? I'd like to see them get even 4psi with the a fan. See the humour yet?

Electrically powered superchargers are unlikely to achieve the massive amounts of boost supplied by conventional types but have a viable application as a low cost intermediate performance enhancement.

Yes a viable application for handing misguided bragging rights to the clueless and $$$ to any vendor able to keep a straight face for the duration of a sale.

Their real advantage is that boost can be supplied at low engine speeds increasing power and torque in this range thus making the engine more flexible and responsive. 

Whether the thing could produce even measurable boost at idle is doubtful, at anything over a few hundred RPM it is going to be the performance equivalent of a dirtyair filter.  Too funny! 

[HLA-27b]

I think I confused the electric supercharger for "the turbonator" the former being merely inefficient while the latter is a blatant wankery.

[IanB]

An axial fan is a compressor. It is simply a compressor with a high volume, low pressure rise characteristic.

Yeah, 10-15 kW is a lot, but I don't think they are claiming that. They are running a 12 V motor at 36 V for short enough periods to avoid burning out the windings. Maybe 1 kW? In another context I've been reading about a 1.3 kW motor that weighs 500 g.

If they get a 4 psi pressure rise above atmospheric, that is a pressure ratio of about 1.25. That's a bit much for a plain old fan of course, but they have modified their fan to change its characteristics.

OK, enough speculation. I'll have to do some calculations and see how far away from reality this thing might be.

[HLA-27b]

Assuming say 75% efficiency how many amps at 12VDC is that sucker going to draw?

At my workplace we have a 52KW 10 Bar screw type air compressor. According to its manual, the efficiency is 25% the rest being wasted as heat. The manual strongly recommends utilizing the waste hot air for heating of premises.

[Uncle Vernon]

An axial fan is a compressor. It is simply a compressor with a high volume, low pressure rise characteristic.

Low pressure being the clinker!

Yeah, 10-15 kW is a lot, but I don't think they are claiming that.

It's fairly conservative even for a low displacement engine.

They are running a 12 V motor at 36 V for short enough periods to avoid burning out the windings.

What is the extra voltage going to achieve? Even if the can spin that impeller twice as fast it wont be moving any more air once it runs over it's fan curve. All it will produce is NVH.

If they get a 4 psi pressure rise above atmospheric, that is a pressure ratio of about 1.25.

That setup wont achieve 1 psi no matter how fast or hard you spin the impeller.

That's a bit much for a plain old fan of course, but they have modified their fan to change its characteristics.

How? A fan is never going to become an efficient high volume compressor.

OK, enough speculation. I'll have to do some calculations and see how far away from reality this thing might be.

I know the result. Accurate calculation will only help to debunk this nonsense.

[IanB]

An axial fan is a compressor. It is simply a compressor with a high volume, low pressure rise characteristic.

Low pressure being the clinker!

Low is all relative. A pressure ratio of 1.1 to 1.25 is not unreasonable for a single stage centrifugal compressor. Note that they do not have an axial fan there, they have a radial blower that they have modified by adding a diffuser to the outlet. They have basically made a crude centrifugal compressor by sacrificing flow rate for pressure rise.

Yeah, 10-15 kW is a lot, but I don't think they are claiming that.

It's fairly conservative even for a low displacement engine.

Calculations, then. Suppose a 1.6 litre  four stroke engine is running at 4000 rpm. It will displace 0.8 litres of air per revolution, which gives 3200 litres per minute, or 113 cfm. Suppose we wish to compress that air by 4 psi. It starts out at atmospheric (15 psi) and finishes at 19 psi. Using this handy-dandy calculator, we can work out the power requirement. Plugging in the numbers gives 2.2 theoretical HP, or 1.6 kW. If we round that up to 2 kW to allow for imperfect efficiency we are still far below 10-15 kW.

They are running a 12 V motor at 36 V for short enough periods to avoid burning out the windings.

What is the extra voltage going to achieve? Even if the can spin that impeller twice as fast it wont be moving any more air once it runs over it's fan curve. All it will produce is NVH.

Fan affinity laws. Volume flow increases with the speed and the pressure rise with the square of the speed. That's why airplane propellers turn really really fast. There are limits when parts of the machine reach sonic velocities, but there is no chance our blower is going to do that.

If they get a 4 psi pressure rise above atmospheric, that is a pressure ratio of about 1.25.

That setup wont achieve 1 psi no matter how fast or hard you spin the impeller.

Skepticism is good, but I'm not inclined to say it's impossible.

That's a bit much for a plain old fan of course, but they have modified their fan to change its characteristics.

How? A fan is never going to become an efficient high volume compressor.

It doesn't need a very high volume. 113 cfm is quite low. You can get more pressure if you can accept a reduction in volume.

OK, enough speculation. I'll have to do some calculations and see how far away from reality this thing might be.

I know the result. Accurate calculation will only help to debunk this nonsense.

I'm not sure where to look, but I need to see fan curves for heater blowers used in automotive applications.

[Uncle Vernon]

Note that they do not have an axial fan there, they have a radial blower that they have modified by adding a diffuser to the outlet. They have basically made a crude centrifugal compressor by sacrificing flow rate for pressure rise.

Diffuser isn't going to make a blind bit of difference, that fan will still freewheel once it has established a moderate static head. It will never be an effective compressor it will essentially self limit.

Skepticism is good, but I'm not inclined to say it's impossible.

With the type of hardware suggested I am absolutely certain it will be impossible.

It doesn't need a very high volume. 113 cfm is quite low. You can get more pressure if you can accept a reduction in volume.

What will a reduction in air volume achieve? Richer mixture and reduced performance?

I'm not sure where to look, but I need to see fan curves for heater blowers used in automotive applications.

Same as the blower in your average room air conditioner. Try to achieve a high static with one, it's not going to happen. Spinning much faster wont help, as outlet pressure rises the fan's ability to scavenge more air reduces. Yousoon reach a point where extra RPM will not increase output volume or pressure.

[Nermash]

This reminds of the Radium water fad during pre-war era, minus the new age hippy crap. Drinking Radium water... now that was crazy.

I thought of the very same thing I will wait for the Co60 version

[Zad]

These electric superchargers can improve fuel economy, but not by the mechanism they claim to use. Basically, above a certain air flow rate, they act as a restrictor, limiting the engine power.

Another car related Ebay con is the "external calibration adjustment". The impression given is that it allows you to remap the engine management. In reality it is a £0:00.5p resistor that fits in series (or parallel) with the airflow sensor, weakening or enriching the air/fuel mix. Of course any engine made in the last 20+ years will adapt it's settings over the first few miles anyway, especially if it has an O2 sensor. Of course if it doesn't adapt you just end up with a higher fuel bill or burned out valves.

[Uncle Vernon]

These electric superchargers can improve fuel economy, but not by the mechanism they claim to use. Basically, above a certain air flow rate, they act as a restrictor, limiting the engine power.

Exactly! Well at least, on cars smart enough not to run rich under such circumstances.   

[IanB]

These electric superchargers can improve fuel economy, but not by the mechanism they claim to use. Basically, above a certain air flow rate, they act as a restrictor, limiting the engine power.

Exactly! Well at least, on cars smart enough not to run rich under such circumstances.

They don't claim it improves fuel economy, so discussion of improved fuel economy is irrelevant.