'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[MK14]

https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-engineers-replace-racially-loaded-tech-terms-like-master-slave/

It makes an interesting read.

It explains how a person of colour, was upset, by the computer system, sending him, an email.
That basically said "automatic slave rekick.".

Which I can understand, made him feel bad.
So, he and another employee, requested and got Twitter, to change their naming policies.

Extract:

Whitelist becomes allowlist.
Blacklist becomes denylist.
Master/slave becomes leader/follower, primary/replica or primary/standby.
Grandfathered becomes legacy status.
Gendered pronouns (for example "guys") become folks, people, you all, y'all.
Gendered pronouns (for example "he" or "his") become they or their.
Man hours becomes person hours or engineer hours.
Sanity check becomes quick check, confidence check or coherence check.
Dummy value becomes placeholder value or sample value.

[Simon]

@GeorgeOfTheJungle I have removed your post twice now. Do not post off-topic Youtube video.
If this thread does not attempt to stay on topic I'm going to lock it.

Please don't let one member spoil it for at least 10 others. I appeal to you not to lock this thread. I'm confident it serves a useful function for the Forum community generally.

Yea, for those that drink, it's the equivalent of drowning our sorrows 😂

[Simon]

https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-engineers-replace-racially-loaded-tech-terms-like-master-slave/

It makes an interesting read.

It explains how a person of colour, was upset, by the computer system, sending him, an email.
That basically said "automatic slave rekick.".

Which I can understand, made him feel bad.
So, he and another employee, requested and got Twitter, to change their naming policies.

Extract:

Whitelist becomes allowlist.
Blacklist becomes denylist.
Master/slave becomes leader/follower, primary/replica or primary/standby.
Grandfathered becomes legacy status.
Gendered pronouns (for example "guys") become folks, people, you all, y'all.
Gendered pronouns (for example "he" or "his") become they or their.
Man hours becomes person hours or engineer hours.
Sanity check becomes quick check, confidence check or coherence check.
Dummy value becomes placeholder value or sample value.

these people, they are some right "samples" aren't they.....

[paulca]

On the HR thing about, well, basically asking you to self declare your membership of certain groups or declaring you would like to be labelled one way or other...

I don't want any of those labels and I don't want to declare my "belonging", indentity or even "association" with those labels or groups.

So if I later found out that I was automatically labelled white and male, those are fairly apparent and do, I believe, form at least part of my legal identity and could be determined from, say, my passport.  Then that's okay.

If however they label me as "Straight, Cis Gender, Christian, British male", well then there is a problem, even if they do not apply policies or behave towards me, or assume my behaviour towards others based on that.  It fundamentally breaks human rights in EXACTLY the same way that the are claiming to be trying to prevent.

The hypocrisy and paradox of the extreme right, far left.

I am me.  Nothing else.  I am an individual.  I don't want labelled other than,  I'm an engineer.  I do work for you.  You pay me.  I behave in a civil way towards my peers and everyone else.  I am to create a civil and productive environment and expect the same.  That is all I am willing to be.  I will not be labelled, filed, stamped or numbered that says otherwise.

[MK14]

these people, they are some right "samples" aren't they.....

You're right (and your example(s) is making the grammar, circuits of my brain, hurt really bad).
They haven't thought some bits of it, thoroughly enough.

But some of them work out, surprisingly well.
Such as:
Whitelist becomes allowlist.
Blacklist becomes denylist.
Man hours becomes person hours or engineer hours
Master/slave becomes leader/follower

[Simon]

these people, they are some right "samples" aren't they.....

You're right (and your example(s) is making the grammar, circuits of my brain, hurt really bad).
They haven't thought some bits of it, thoroughly enough.

But some of them work out, surprisingly well.
Such as:
Whitelist becomes allowlist.
Blacklist becomes denylist.
Man hours becomes person hours or engineer hours
Master/slave becomes leader/follower

Yes some are OK but for the confusion they will bring with mixed terminology and allow/denylist is not exactly new so no need for the hoo haa just use them in new code. The point is that these terms were never meant offensively and when someone tells you that you are a racist and should change them and you do all you do do is give them power, the power to continue to wage stupid battles ignoring the real issues.

[Simon]

On the HR thing about, well, basically asking you to self declare your membership of certain groups or declaring you would like to be labelled one way or other...

I don't want any of those labels and I don't want to declare my "belonging", indentity or even "association" with those labels or groups.

So if I later found out that I was automatically labelled white and male, those are fairly apparent and do, I believe, form at least part of my legal identity and could be determined from, say, my passport.  Then that's okay.

If however they label me as "Straight, Cis Gender, Christian, British male", well then there is a problem, even if they do not apply policies or behave towards me, or assume my behaviour towards others based on that.  It fundamentally breaks human rights in EXACTLY the same way that the are claiming to be trying to prevent.

The hypocrisy and paradox of the extreme right, far left.

I am me.  Nothing else.  I am an individual.  I don't want labelled other than,  I'm an engineer.  I do work for you.  You pay me.  I behave in a civil way towards my peers and everyone else.  I am to create a civil and productive environment and expect the same.  That is all I am willing to be.  I will not be labelled, filed, stamped or numbered that says otherwise.

Ever since I came back to the UK, if I fill in a form that ends with "and now to ensure racial equality in the way we deal with you please fill in your race" I refuse to fill that bit out. On any form I only give the information they NEED not the information that is supposed to help them deal with their own messed up idea of equality for, sex, religion or race.

[MK14]

Yes some are OK but for the confusion they will bring with mixed terminology and allow/denylist is not exactly new so no need for the hoo haa just use them in new code. The point is that these terms were never meant offensively and when someone tells you that you are a racist and should change them and you do all you do do is give them power, the power to continue to wage stupid battles ignoring the real issues.

To an extent, you are right. But I guess there is a team of different programmers (and other job functions, who might also see the source code, e.g. managers, testers, etc). So, you need a consistent set of coding standards, so the big company wide team(s), can work together, to produce useful software and other resources for the company.

E.g. (under normal times), you could have had a new worker, who is Vegan. Who was offended by a few variable names. (I'm being hypothetical here), such as TotalMeatCount, MaxMeat, MeatValue.
So, they have politely asked/requested, for those 3 variables, to be renamed, to be less offensive, to anyone who is a vegan.
Such as, TotalProteinCount, MaxProteinBoxes, ProteinValue.

Or a new programmer joins the team, who uses a wheelchair. So, there needs to be a few, reasonably small changes to the office space. To accommodate them.

In other words. A friendly, well oiled, business with a good work place environment. Maybe be able to peacefully implement these hypothetical changes. Without a great deal of drama.

But, your concern, of a possible 'Thin end of a Wedge' situation, where more and more demands are made. Until it starts hurting the business and its activities. Is also a valid point.

[paulca]

Ever since I came back to the UK, if I fill in a form that ends with "and now to ensure racial equality in the way we deal with you please fill in your race" I refuse to fill that bit out. On any form I only give the information they NEED not the information that is supposed to help them deal with their own messed up idea of equality for, sex, religion or race.

In Northern Ireland they have been doing it with "community identity" for decades.  They ask you:

Do you consider yourself to belong to one of the following:
Roman Catholic / Nationalist community.
Protestant / Loyalist community.
Neither / Prefer not to say.

If you tick the last box or if you obstain the process requires the HR drone processing your form to determine it other ways, such as Primary School attended or current address.

The concept is meant to be opaque from selection.  In that those deciding if you get the job or not are not privi to the information and HR are required to separate these Fair employment forms from your application and only track the relationship via a pure number which they keep completely secure from everything including their bosses.  Do this happen?  Of course not.

Back on topic (well more on topic) I was having a rant about work today and it went something like:

"You ask me to do things, but when I go and attempt to do them I find I do not have the privileges nor rights to do those things, my role does not permit me to do those things I am denied.  I have to ask my manager who is privileged to do those things on my behalf or to grant me the privilege."

I stopped and thought, oh ffs when the far left get hold of those concepts (ACLs basically)... they will explode is showers of sparks/justice cries.

[Simon]

Well basically i will only give neccessary information, not information they want for PR. if it's medical or government i will tell them the necessary but as soon as it says anything about "equalities" I am a number.

[Simon]

Ever since I came back to the UK, if I fill in a form that ends with "and now to ensure racial equality in the way we deal with you please fill in your race" I refuse to fill that bit out. On any form I only give the information they NEED not the information that is supposed to help them deal with their own messed up idea of equality for, sex, religion or race.

In Northern Ireland they have been doing it with "community identity" for decades.  They ask you:

Do you consider yourself to belong to one of the following:
Roman Catholic / Nationalist community.
Protestant / Loyalist community.
Neither / Prefer not to say.

If you tick the last box or if you obstain the process requires the HR drone processing your form to determine it other ways, such as Primary School attended or current address.

The concept is meant to be opaque from selection.  In that those deciding if you get the job or not are not privi to the information and HR are required to separate these Fair employment forms from your application and only track the relationship via a pure number which they keep completely secure from everything including their bosses.  Do this happen?  Of course not.

Back on topic (well more on topic) I was having a rant about work today and it went something like:

"You ask me to do things, but when I go and attempt to do them I find I do not have the privileges nor rights to do those things, my role does not permit me to do those things I am denied.  I have to ask my manager who is privileged to do those things on my behalf or to grant me the privilege."

I stopped and thought, oh ffs when the far left get hold of those concepts (ACLs basically)... they will explode is showers of sparks/justice cries.

Adjustments for disability are one thing but as you show in your vegan example we have lost the live and let live and instead have live and impose on others. I would not put it past a vegan person refusing to use meat words as they generally are as fruity as fruitcakes come. But to not like something is fine, but to have the words banned from your hearing or vanished from your site is not realistic, fair to others or going to fix the reason you don't like them. And that is exactly what they are doing here, we don't like the word slave, so the word has to be abolished, not the thing that the word is but the word, completely pathetic. To equate banning master/slave to the ending or racism and i suspect slavery itself is beyond childish, a sentient cabbage could work that out.

[MK14]

Adjustments for disability are one thing but as you show in your vegan example we have lost the live and let live and instead have live and impose on others. I would not put it past a vegan person refusing to use meat words as they generally are as fruity as fruitcakes come. But to not like something is fine, but to have the words banned from your hearing or vanished from your site is not realistic, fair to others or going to fix the reason you don't like them. And that is exactly what they are doing here, we don't like the word slave, so the word has to be abolished, not the thing that the word is but the word, completely pathetic. To equate banning master/slave to the ending or racism and i suspect slavery itself is beyond childish, a sentient cabbage could work that out.

You're right, I agree.
It is difficult to know where to draw the line, and has a significant risk, of being susceptible to feature creep.
It would also, to some extent, be eroding our own history, values and language.
The new words may also cause offence, from other parties, so it could be a lose/lose situation.

The problem is, if you created a word-processing file, and let all parties (let's say there were 500 programmers), have append_write (not read), access to it.
I.e. All users can extend the list, but they can't read what other programmers have said.

You could end up with a giant list of 5,000 or 6,000 words. It would then be getting really silly.
Some people might abuse the system, or get bored and decide to have a laugh. They then add, all their hated words to the master list.
If the list gets too long, it could eliminate virtually all the words, they might consider. 5 or 6 thousand, is too many to remember (easily), for most people. So, it would either take considerably longer to write software and/or not be possible, without taking extra steps, to compensate for the extra new words needed to write the software. Because of all the hassle and difficulties, coming up with (software standards code compliant) tests.

But there could be some sort of middle ground compromise, which largely keeps everyone happy. Such as only banning the most hated word(s), and leave it at that. I.e. the list is only 2 or 3 words long, in total.
E.g. N*****r, etc.

[Simon]

And what annoys me even more these days is that before anyone say's anything they spend more time trying to clarify that what they are about to say is not meant to be misinterpreted this way and that way just in case someone takes offence for the thing they are about to say.

[Nominal Animal]

It explains how a person of colour, was upset, by the computer system, sending him, an email.
That basically said "automatic slave rekick.".

Which I can understand, made him feel bad.
So, he and another employee, requested and got Twitter, to change their naming policies.

The next time someone brings crackers to the coffee room, I'll throw up a worldwide shitstorm for making me feel offended.  Fair enough?

[SiliconWizard]

And what annoys me even more these days is that before anyone say's anything they spend more time trying to clarify that what they are about to say is not meant to be misinterpreted this way and that way just in case someone takes offence for the thing they are about to say.

There's been some significant shift in how people interact these days, especially since people use social networks, and get used to "delayed" interaction in general.

You notice that whereas when having a conversation with someone, and they weren't completely sure what you meant, they would (unless they were complete jerks) kindly admit they didn't quite understand you and would like you to rephrase your thoughts/make them clearer, now they increasingly tend to act like jerks (even if it's becoming the norm, thus now seems acceptable, or even "normal"), do not bother to even consider they didn't understand you, but instead will tend to have a preconceived idea of what you meant. Eventually, you end up apologizing for not being clear enough so that what you expressed may have hurt their feelings.

In other words, "sorry, I'm not sure I got what you meant exactly" has largely become "what you said hurt my feelings (/is racist/is discriminatory/whatever/...), now apologize or prove that what you meant is something else - but in the latter case, still apologize for having expressed things in a way that hurt me."

Oh, and for an increasing number of people, helped by the mob effect on social networks, actively *finding* "unacceptable" ideas in what others express, whatever they really say, has become a game. Like a modern form of hunting. They do not just happen to sometimes be offended by what someone else said. They actively look for it.

[james_s]

Part of me wants to go looking for the next layer of words that somebody somewhere could potentially see as offensive in some way and start demanding that all of them be changed to much more ambiguous words in hopes that at some point it all gets so unwieldy and confusing that people start to realize what a fool's errand it all is. Then I realize that it will eventually happen anyway because as Dave has said, it never ends. I can just focus on my regular activities and let the silly fad run its course.

[Simon]

the reason black/whitelist is still around is because it's less syllables than allow/denylist, it's 33% faster and the new terms are 50% slower, such a waste of man... I mean personhours, oh hang on that's 3 syllables to 2 as well, what about engineerhours? oh golly that's 4 syllables, we will all have to take a pay cut so that employers can put up with the lower output..... Oh shit now lets rant about low wages....

[james_s]

the reason black/whitelist is still around is because it's less syllables than allow/denylist, it's 33% faster and the new terms are 50% slower, such a waste of man... I mean personhours, oh hang on that's 3 syllables to 2 as well, what about engineerhours? oh golly that's 4 syllables, we will all have to take a pay cut so that employers can put up with the lower output..... Oh shit now lets rant about low wages....

That is exactly the thought I've had on this as well. Words like "spokesman" and "man-hours" are fewer syllables than "spokesperson" or "person-hours" and they just sound less awkward. Nothing says a spokesman or a fireman, etc can't be a woman, "man" is just a generic term used to mean human beings collectively. I've never really grasped the issue, many languages have gendered words for inanimate objects, it's just words, it's not assigning value.

[Simon]

the reason black/whitelist is still around is because it's less syllables than allow/denylist, it's 33% faster and the new terms are 50% slower, such a waste of man... I mean personhours, oh hang on that's 3 syllables to 2 as well, what about engineerhours? oh golly that's 4 syllables, we will all have to take a pay cut so that employers can put up with the lower output..... Oh shit now lets rant about low wages....

That is exactly the thought I've had on this as well. Words like "spokesman" and "man-hours" are fewer syllables than "spokesperson" or "person-hours" and they just sound less awkward. Nothing says a spokesman or a fireman, etc can't be a woman, "man" is just a generic term used to mean human beings collectively. I've never really grasped the issue, many languages have gendered words for inanimate objects, it's just words, it's not assigning value.

Yep like itlian:

Male: Tavolo = plank
Female: Tavola = table

But it does not end there, plural of male words ends in "i" and plural of female words ends in "e", but sometimes a male singular word ends in "e" like sir: signore which is also the plural of madam: signora, so "signore e signori" is ladies and gentlemen but you know from the contexts which version of the word is used. Drove me up the wall learning it, at first i assumed a man was a a "signoro"

[MK14]

The next time someone brings crackers to the coffee room, I'll throw up a worldwide shitstorm for making me feel offended.  Fair enough?

Instead, I'd give you a non-offensive, present. Such as..

Monkey Nuts
Bananas
Tickets to play Crazy Golf
Nuts
Dark Chocolates

Nothing Then

EDIT: OK, I'm feeling sad about not giving you a present or something.
'Coffee Room'. Ok, let me make you a cup of Coffee.

Black or White (Coffee) ?

Ok, forget it, I'm going...

[Simon]

I mean we are at a point were the BBC ran an article about racism in dating a year or more ago because to have a preference in love is racist or to "have a type" is not PC

[paulca]

the reason black/whitelist is still around is because it's less syllables than allow/denylist, it's 33% faster

It's like www.  People say www instead of world wide web.  But www has 9 syllables where as world wide web only has 3.

[bd139]

But everyone says dub dub dub 

[donotdespisethesnake]

Ever since I came back to the UK, if I fill in a form that ends with "and now to ensure racial equality in the way we deal with you please fill in your race" I refuse to fill that bit out. On any form I only give the information they NEED not the information that is supposed to help them deal with their own messed up idea of equality for, sex, religion or race.

I am wondering if I can just answer "Jedi" to all these questions.

[coppice]

Ever since I came back to the UK, if I fill in a form that ends with "and now to ensure racial equality in the way we deal with you please fill in your race" I refuse to fill that bit out. On any form I only give the information they NEED not the information that is supposed to help them deal with their own messed up idea of equality for, sex, religion or race.

I am wondering if I can just answer "Jedi" to all these questions.

If I'm asked for my race I answer the 100m. They only have to look at the size of me to know my reply is not entirely serious.