'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[lukego]

The tone of this response to Dave's comment illustrates exactly what is wrong. People like 'luke' are allergic to healthy debate.

I am glad that we finally cleared this up.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Red Bull CEO Dietrich Mateschitz firing executives in his own company because they were desperately trying to shill Black Lives Matter and diversity schemes. Goodbye!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8530435/PICTURED-Racist-map-world-Red-Bull-exec-showed-illustrate-global-corporation.html

 

[donotdespisethesnake]

After wading through a lot of nonsensical reasoning about why removing some niche technial terms could do anything to advance social equality, I finally came up across something at least plausible:

Master-slave terminology alternatives you can use right now

Fifteen years ago, while teaching a WebSphere Portal class attended by several black students, I became incredibly uncomfortable when the standard software term master and slave came up in our discussion about scalability and workload management.

So there you have it : some (white) Americans are embarrassed talking in front of black people. The rest of the article is drivel.

When the first argument fails (removing terms addresses racism), they go on to the second argument : the terms are imprecise. Of course they are, that's the same in every industry.

So he suggests several nonsense alternatives, like "scripture and prophets".  That is supposed to be less vague and more precise?
The author even has to point out he is not taking the mickey, because the suggestions are obviously stupid.

Whether people should be ashamed or embarrassed by actions actions of their forbears, I think probably not, as long as they eschew slavery and racism today. The problem in the US is one of "frozen conflict", although the confederates lost the war, they never really conceded that slavery was wrong. They merely stopped the practice because they were forced to, but the belief in white supremacy and "justness" of the cause continued.

I think the Germans handled the legacy of Nazism in a better way. They didn't airbrush the past, and pretend it never happened. They concede it happened, it was was wrong, but going forward try to ensure it does not happen again. Rather than feel shame for the grandparent's actions, they take responsibility for what happens now and in the future.

[MK14]

Red Bull CEO Dietrich Mateschitz firing executives in his own company because they were desperately trying to shill Black Lives Matter and diversity schemes. Goodbye!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8530435/PICTURED-Racist-map-world-Red-Bull-exec-showed-illustrate-global-corporation.html

 

We need more of actions, such as that. To reinstill common-sense, and normality.

suggests several nonsense alternatives, like "scripture and prophets".

I can believe one or more religions, wouldn't be happy with those new term(s).

[nuclearcat]

VMware to stop describing hardware as ‘male’ and ‘female’ in new terminology guide

https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/23/vmware_offensive_terminology_style_guide/

[MK14]

VMware to stop describing hardware as ‘male’ and ‘female’ in new terminology guide

https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/23/vmware_offensive_terminology_style_guide/

Already linked to here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/msg3151898/#msg3151898

Don't worry, there were lots of distractions, in between, your post, and the other one.

[PlainName]

Master-slave terminology alternatives you can use right now

The chaps says:

SaltStack has used the term minion as an alternative to slave, which tends to put a smile on people's faces. There is merit when you replace a negatively charged term with something that involves a bit of levity.

My emphasis - a bit of levity was probably why master/slave was used in the first place. A problem is that, generally, what might have seemed a laugh at the time will look a bit iffy when spoken in a monotone from the witness box by an Official for the prosecution. Levity also typically arises from being a bit risqué. The takeaway is that they might clean the place out now but it'll happen again with different dodgy terms (hopefully - if not it's going to be a very sad and straightjacketed workplace).

[Ed.Kloonk]

From what I am told you need a bit of left and right to be successful, which i agree with. No point in "hating capitalism" it's how innovation is spawned but uncontrolled capitalism also spells disaster. It's not a case of not having an opinion on either, it's recognizing that capitalism is OK with controls in place.

Whilst I accept that capitalists in power require checks and balances, that's because they are humans not because they are bloody capitalists. I can appreciate that you wish to straddle, however, you run the risk of attracting those who won't admit that they believe that when regarding anything, the problem is capitalism, the solution is communism.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Blessed are the Cheese makers.

After watching multiple failed attempts through the decades, they finally decided that a brand name (and someone's family name!) of cheese in a bridge too far. And a country town with the same word in it is up for review.

Madness.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/coon-cheese-to-be-retired-after-21-year-fight-to-change-its-name-20200724-p55f71.html

[Simon]

I think minion is a word that can already be used negatively along the lines of henchmen.

[bd139]

Oh there goes Gru

[MK14]

I think minion is a word that can already be used negatively along the lines of henchmen.

Google search says (   https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/minion    )

Over time, however, the word evolved a more derogatory sense referring to a person who is servile and unimportant

So it is probably already racist. Possibly used against minorities.

[Zero999]

Blessed are the Cheese makers.

After watching multiple failed attempts through the decades, they finally decided that a brand name (and someone's family name!) of cheese in a bridge too far. And a country town with the same word in it is up for review.

Madness.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/coon-cheese-to-be-retired-after-21-year-fight-to-change-its-name-20200724-p55f71.html

I did laugh that someone spent so long trying to change the name of a cheese. I suppose it's more understandable, than the silly master/slave terminology, as Coon is normally used as a racial slur. Unfortunately the article didn't say what the new name for the cheese will be. It would be funny if people boycott it because they don't like the new name.

[james_s]

I think minion is a word that can already be used negatively along the lines of henchmen.

Google search says (   https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/minion    )

Over time, however, the word evolved a more derogatory sense referring to a person who is servile and unimportant

So it is probably already racist. Possibly used against minorities.

The problem with this whole approach that is not going to change is that master/slave accurately describes the fundamental relationship between the parts of a system called by those names. Thus any word you come up with to describe this relationship is going to be synonymous with master and slave. You're changing the words to synonyms but the meaning by necessity stays exactly the same or it would no longer be correct. Any word you could possibly come up with could then be appropriated by somebody to describe slavery before the ink has even dried on the changes. It's a futile waste of time.

[MK14]

The problem with this whole approach that is not going to change is that master/slave accurately describes the fundamental relationship between the parts of a system called by those names. Thus any word you come up with to describe this relationship is going to be synonymous with master and slave. You're changing the words to synonyms but the meaning by necessity stays exactly the same or it would no longer be correct. Any word you could possibly come up with could then be appropriated by somebody to describe slavery before the ink has even dried on the changes. It's a futile waste of time.

Very true, and a good point!

My understanding (I think I read it in at least one place, but can't remember where or when), is that variable names (similarly IC pin concepts, or system functional block names), need a degree of power and controversy to them (already partly/fully mentioned in this thread, already), to make them memorable/noticeable and (as you and others have already stated), easily allow people to quickly understand/realise what the identifier (naming scheme) represents.

I.e. Some one says OUTPUT, then it is realised that it is the thing that conveys the results to users or devices, and there is usually INPUT(S), to go with it.

So TRUE goes with FALSE, and TRUE means that something is correct/active/enabled, and the opposite of FALSE. Even though the exact integer definition of true, is something, some people disagree about.
E.g. True is 1, or Not 0, or any positive integer, etc etc.
Similarly, false is 0, or -1, or negative or Not whatever true is, etc etc.

Therefore, variable/array/file names, such as BlackList, BannedList, DisallowedList, IgnoreList, RejectList.
Reasonably powerfully convey its meaning.
But, FirstList, PurpleList, PetList, ZList, DList, JList etc.
Might be defined to be the same thing, but don't immediately jump out as being the concept of a BlackList or BlockOutList.

Also in a busy IT department of a big company. there could be 10,000+ different programs/scripts/applications, spread across many different systems/languages, written over the last couple of decades or longer.
To go through all of them, and update the naming schemes, would be a massive undertaking. They would have to be each, rewritten (partly), recompiled, retested, then moved/installed to the various computer systems, potentially around the world.
It would cost a fortune, consume huge amounts of limited/valuable IT resources time, and probably introduce a big number of new bugs.
Some of the people who wrote the original software, could easily no longer be working for the company. The company may not even be sure, of all the locations, where that piece of software is installed/located.
I'm probably only scratching at the surface on all the heartache and problems/issues, this would cause in practice.
E.g. The custom hardware may need to also have its firmware updated, but the original PROMS are no longer available, no one knows how to even reprogram new PROMS, or where all those custom hardware units are actually installed.
Because the people who did it, left the company long ago. The custom hardware is installed in some big racks, somewhere in the numerous server and similar, rooms. Across many different countries. There appears to be absolutely no information as to where they are, or how many. Etc.
tl;dr
Big can of worms, best left closed, if you know what is good for you.

[EEVblog]

Red Bull CEO Dietrich Mateschitz firing executives in his own company because they were desperately trying to shill Black Lives Matter and diversity schemes. Goodbye!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8530435/PICTURED-Racist-map-world-Red-Bull-exec-showed-illustrate-global-corporation.html

I don't know whether they should have been fired or not, but geeze it's nice to see a big company CEO standing up for not being pressured into making a statement about politics. 

[EEVblog]

Blessed are the Cheese makers.
After watching multiple failed attempts through the decades, they finally decided that a brand name (and someone's family name!) of cheese in a bridge too far. And a country town with the same word in it is up for review.
Madness.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/coon-cheese-to-be-retired-after-21-year-fight-to-change-its-name-20200724-p55f71.html

Oh FFS. I thought they had already come out and and publicly said they wouldn't change it?
Finally bowed to the pressure of a serial complainers. Sad.

[langwadt]

Blessed are the Cheese makers.
After watching multiple failed attempts through the decades, they finally decided that a brand name (and someone's family name!) of cheese in a bridge too far. And a country town with the same word in it is up for review.
Madness.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/coon-cheese-to-be-retired-after-21-year-fight-to-change-its-name-20200724-p55f71.html

Oh FFS. I thought they had already come out and and publicly said they wouldn't change it?
Finally bowed to the pressure of a serial complainers. Sad.

here the current big diskussion an icecream that for more than 100 years have had the name Eskimo and a tool company called Eskimo also more than 100 years old

atleast some of even the most sjw type political commentators, have said that those who think changing a name is going to make a difference
are just as silly as those that think changing the name is big violation of free speech 
 

[nuclearcat]

VMware to stop describing hardware as ‘male’ and ‘female’ in new terminology guide

https://www.theregister.com/2020/07/23/vmware_offensive_terminology_style_guide/

Already linked to here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/msg3151898/#msg3151898

Don't worry, there were lots of distractions, in between, your post, and the other one.

Oh, sorry for repeat.
Just got exceptionally frustrated, friend shared this article, because we had incident with them, they acted like they dont have enough tech manpower to solve real problems and write proper documentation, and then they go into politics, like they have nothing else to do.
And thats not only them. Google, who quickly jumped to same train changing words, they have issue pending many month, affecting lot of software, and they dont bother to work on it.
https://github.com/golang/go/issues/35407
No discussion, no proposal, just hanging in backlog.

Ofcourse, this (already mentioned) seems considered as more important:
https://go-review.googlesource.com/c/go/+/236857/
If you read comments, insanity level just reaching sky, i dont know even if they are trolling or serious.
Strongly remind a child who have a difficult homework, but he will do anything else, silly as possible, just not this homework.

[MK14]

Oh, sorry for repeat.
Just got exceptionally frustrated, friend shared this article, because we had incident with them, they acted like they dont have enough tech manpower to solve real problems and write proper documentation, and then they go into politics, like they have nothing else to do.
And thats not only them. Google, who quickly jumped to same train changing words, they have issue pending many month, affecting lot of software, and they dont bother to work on it.
https://github.com/golang/go/issues/35407
No discussion, no proposal, just hanging in backlog.

Ofcourse, this (already mentioned) seems considered as more important:
https://go-review.googlesource.com/c/go/+/236857/
If you read comments, insanity level just reaching sky, i dont know even if they are trolling or serious.
Strongly remind a child who have a difficult homework, but he will do anything else, silly as possible, just not this homework.

This threads a rather unwieldy 60+ pages of posts already, so easy to miss posts. I don't think I've read, even half of it, as I was somewhat late to the party (thread).

A few years ago (actually, approaching 10 years ago), I think google, created a new search engine (and stuff), made publicly available. Which (similar to the discussion), somewhat silently disallowed, a huge list of, what they considered problematic words.
Especially swear words, but even tiny/slight swear words, e.g, wtf (which DOESN'T need to translate to any swear words, anyway).

Long story long, I bet you have never heard of that project, and nowadays, it comes up with error 404, page not found, as google abandoned it.
Google doesn't seem to easily let me even find references to it now, I'm not sure if that is on purpose or not.

Here is (reportedly), the list of banned words, it used:
https://www.freewebheaders.com/full-list-of-bad-words-banned-by-google/

Here is a link to a reference about it:
https://searchengineland.com/google-launches-search-box-to-find-google-services-at-wdyl-com-83417

Better link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WDYL_(search_engine)

Relevant to this thread:

The search is censored with search words deemed inappropriate by Google resulting in the user being redirected to the WDYL page for kittens with an image of a rainbow in the background. The service is now inactive, with the URL resulting in a 404 response.

[magic]

I am sure a shift of the Overton window is all what it needs to end PC Culture and just like you said what needs to happen is for the average "centrist" to start feeling uncomfortable.

Okay, this is technically a thread about the PC culture, but more generally, I can assure you that even if it disappeared overnight, America wouldn't cease being a shitshow. PC culture is just a symptom of the underlying disease.
Their situation is really rather simple: a former little white/christian/libertarian paradise has allowed a politically significant fraction of socialists, anarchists and pretty much literal communists to grow on their soil.
This is a big deal because millions of the whites want nothing to do with nonwhites (and surely with certain kinds of them). The libertarians, even if not racist, will not pay for any socialist programs and tell them that the nonwhites should just learn to code. The Christians would be OK with some wealth redistribution, but it would better be volunatry and the recipients would better believe in Jesus, or even not shit on him at least, which might be already too much to ask.
You can imagine that American left is deeply unhappy about this situation.
Their only long term strategy is forcing further desegregation and wealth redistribution by any random means they get their hands on and bringing nonwhite immigrants to ultimately outvote the old white/christian/libertarian crowd. That's all they talk about and really the only way they can realistically win under the conditions of popular democracy.
Meanwhile the white/christian/libertarian are quite happy in their small towns and gentrified suburbs and not much eager to go along with he left's effort, given the decrease in quality of life it would involve.

It's a shitshow, it will be a shitshow. Americans have been rioting and killing each other over that issue for decades, we all will expire and they will still be doing it. Death to America, Allah willing, I'm really tired of them.

Hey, even Chomsky came out of his retirement to say that this cancel culture thingy is quite wrong. Makes me wonder if the leftist university elites are starting to realize they pushed a little bit to hard.

No shit, even one Canadian psychologist popped up a few years ago and said that much and found his life's calling in deradicalizing 4chan, only to get mocked by them.
 

Or maybe I am wrong we are all Doomed. lmao.

Americans are. I'm fine

I do apologize for my snarky reply tho, I think my Judgement got clouded by previous posts of yours. 

No worries. It's not like I'm not a dick sometimes too

[GlennSprigg]

Blessed are the Cheese makers.
After watching multiple failed attempts through the decades, they finally decided that a brand name (and someone's family name!) of cheese in a bridge too far. And a country town with the same word in it is up for review.
Madness.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/coon-cheese-to-be-retired-after-21-year-fight-to-change-its-name-20200724-p55f71.html

Oh FFS. I thought they had already come out and and publicly said they wouldn't change it?
Finally bowed to the pressure of a serial complainers. Sad.

They had. However, it's reared it's ugly head again due to the recent B.L.M. movement. However, some of
the biggest stirrers 'this' time have been certain 'prominent' Aboriginals too!!  For Christ's sake, 'Coon' cheese
has been around since the 1930's in Australia. And to quote just 1 of thousands of records....
      "An American, Edward William Coon, patented a unique ripening process that was used to manufacture
       the original Coon cheese, due to specialized humidity & temperatures" that the 'name' originated from!   

It has NO derogatory implications in it's naming. Just a totally different 'chance' meaning!  I mean, in English, we
have a word 'gift'. Meaning a 'present' one would give someone. However, in German, 'gift' means 'Poison' !!
Should 'we' not have gift shops any more, (it does confuse Germans!), as we send the wrong message!!   

Not trying to be 'dirty' here, but Americans refer to a woman's 'Fanny' as her 'butt' or 'derriere'. Sounds 'funny' to
us, as the word means her... (erm) 'pussy'!!  And Americans talking about someone having lots of 'spunk', is also
funny to us, as here to us the word means (erm) 'ejaculate'. Do we 'ban' all such confusing books/literature ??   

Yes... The owners of this cheese style/type have been recently variously misquoted as saying that they 'Will'
change the name, but that is CRAP. They are legally fighting it!!  The 'News' here did a recent survey too, of
about 60,000 people, and found 5% shit-stirrers for the re-naming, and 95% AGAINST it!!  Also, one of the so
called local Aboriginal stirrers recently said that... "Well, if they can prove that origin of that word is from that
guys name, then I will drop my protest/law-suit"... 

Too many 'Band-Wagons' on the street now. People getting run over on every street corner!!   

[Kjelt]

I would call it TyCoon cheese 
End of all that waste of energy and negative publicity.

We had the same with some products, cookies, pastries ,  the names had to be changed.
Now I don't even know what they are called 

[Ed.Kloonk]

Hey, even Chomsky came out of his retirement to say that this cancel culture thingy is quite wrong. Makes me wonder if the leftist university elites are starting to realize they pushed a little bit to hard.

I doubt they'll ever change their view, but they are starting to get hit in the pocket. People are getting tired of subsidizing this rubbish. Parents who have worked their guts out to be able to send their kid to uni are winding up with an angry little brat who calls it's parents vile names for doing so. Parents talk to other parents. And they are starting to figure out that the majority of uni courses are dumb and more importantly bad for the kid.

[coppice]

I doubt they'll ever change their view, but they are starting to get hit in the pocket. People are getting tired of subsidizing this rubbish. Parents who have worked their guts out to be able to send their kid to uni are winding up with an angry little brat who calls it's parents vile names for doing so. Parents talk to other parents. And they are starting to figure out that the majority of uni courses are dumb and more importantly bad for the kid.

People have been talking about this for some years, so if parents are reacting it seems to be very slowly.