'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[Simon]

OK OK, stop the politics NOW! this has nothing to do with the debate.

[magic]

Okay, and I'm just kidding, as typical.

[james_s]

Also, OSHWA (not exactly the biggest and most prestigious hardware tech resource in the world, but still, not nobody) has published an alternative for SPI usage already that anyone can now pick up and use with documented precedent.

https://hackaday.com/2020/06/29/updating-the-language-of-spi-pin-labels-to-remove-casual-references-to-slavery/

The next schematic sheet I do with SPI is going to conform to this. Lets see how people manage with it. I expect there will be zero people dying as a result of it.

You do you. I'll manage with it by simply changing any signal names back to the industry standards that I'm familiar on any schematic I happen to work with. If other people want to virtue signal by using confusing newspeak they've got a right to do that, oblivious to the fact that the rest of the engineering world is rolling their eyes.

[Simon]

I am in the middle of creating a new standard of equipment for my employer with the subcontractor that does much of our electronic design. It's got a master and many slaves! Deal with it!

[daqq]

Also, OSHWA (not exactly the biggest and most prestigious hardware tech resource in the world, but still, not nobody) has published an alternative for SPI usage already that anyone can now pick up and use with documented precedent.

https://hackaday.com/2020/06/29/updating-the-language-of-spi-pin-labels-to-remove-casual-references-to-slavery/

The next schematic sheet I do with SPI is going to conform to this. Lets see how people manage with it. I expect there will be zero people dying as a result of it.

(facepalm) Oh wow, yet another glorious step on the march against racism. Do you have any other words you'd like to have banned in order to feel good about yourself?

[Simon]

He may have omitted a not in the sentence: *not "going to conform", it would make more sense with "I expect there will be zero people dying as a result of it"

[PeterZ]

In all the inclusiveness efforts i wonder if they even bothered to check if the new nomenclature perhaps has a very derogatory sexist meaning in other languages than English.
I encourage you to check the new "cipo" with the google translator (Polish->English). Now, the translation is not perfect. In that form, with "o" at the end it means more "You xxxx" than just "xxxx".
So, saying to someone:
"connect cipo to that pin" would in many cases sound/be understood like:
"connect it to that pin, you xxxx" 
Again google translator is not perfect here, but also hilarious, try to translate this from Polish to English:
"podłącz cipo do tego pinu" - which is just the mentioned "connect cipo to that pin", just as i'd use "connect miso to that pin".

And yes, i know the original pronunciation would sound differently, but in practice people just use the acronyms they saw on the schematic or in the datasheet and speak them out as they sound in native language. Often not even knowing what the acronym stands for. Many awkward moments guaranteed with this one.
Also, since there will always be some jerks trying to be funny by injecting a little sexist joke here&there, such w new word will make a great new for them.

I wonder how these "proposed" changes are perceived in other languages than English? Your local electronics/tech forums? Would be interesting to know.

[paulca]

Slightly relevant:

[daqq]

I wonder how these "proposed" changes are perceived in other languages than English? Your local electronics/tech forums? Would be interesting to know.

About the same as here - most of my local contacts think that the whole thing is silly at best, some see it as a part of a bad long term agenda or at least as a sign of an extremely fractured society. At best they are indifferent about it, mostly they are some shades of against it.
There are of course a few here as well who view it with great enthusiasm. Most of the time it is the same people who go on a crusade at the slightest hint of people who belong to the majority do something that could be viewed as racist, while staying extremely quiet when minorities do something much worse to the majority.

[Chris42]

As a native Polish speaker I can confirm that "connect cipo to that pin" does indeed mean "connect it to that pin, you xxxx".
It's absolutely hilarous   

Why change this notation?
Connecting modules was so simple.
MOSI <-> MOSI
MISO <-> MISO
SCK <-> SCK
SS <-> SS

Now I have to remember that in COPI/C*** notation I have to go
COPI <-> COPI
C*** <-> C***

and in DI/DO notation I have to go
DI<->DO
DO<->DI

How many times I forgot about this with UART and connected RX<->RX, TX<->TX whey I was working with arduino/RPI late at night?

Also since they are TWO notations now I have to also remember that:
COPI <-> DI
C*** <->DO

Also now there will be a mess with "legacy" notations so I will also have to remember that:
MOSI <->DO
MISO <-> DI

or:
MOSI <-> C***
MISO <-> COPI

This is insane!

[Simon]

As a native Polish speaker I can confirm that "connect cipo to that pin" does indeed mean "connect it to that pin, you xxxx".
It's absolutely hilarous   

Why change this notation?
Connecting modules was so simple.
MOSI <-> MOSI
MISO <-> MISO
SCK <-> SCK
SS <-> SS

Now I have to remember that in COPI/C*PO notation I have to go
COPI <-> COPI
C*** <-> C***

and in DI/DO notation I have to go
DI<->DO
DO<->DI

How many times I forgot about this with UART and connected RX<->RX, TX<->TX whey I was working with arduino/RPI late at night?

Also since they are TWO notations now I have to also remember that:
COPI <-> DI
C*** <->DO

Also now there will be a mess with "legacy" notations so I will also have to remember that:
MOSI <->DO
MISO <-> DI

or:
MOSI <-> C***
MISO <-> COPI

This is insane!

Google translate confirms it also. Maybe I should chat up my nice new Polish neighbor and tell her all about the latest developments in electronics and how we are introducing cunts to sanitize the world of offensive words 

[Zero999]

He may have omitted a not in the sentence: *not "going to conform", it would make more sense with "I expect there will be zero people dying as a result of it"

No, he supports removing the words master/slave from engineering documentation.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/msg3093431/#msg3093431

I love how he presumes everyone here are middle aged white guys. He's clearly wrong. If he looked at the flags next to the posts, he'll find that many of the posters who are against this are from countries where most people are brown, India, Lebanon etc. 

He's free to use whatever language he wants. If he doesn't like the terms master/slave, then he can choose different words, if he likes, but he should be prepared to have to spend more time explaining it.

[daqq]

Google translate confirms it also. Maybe I should chat up my nice new Polish neighbor and tell her all about the latest developments in electronics and how we are introducing cunts to sanitize the world of offensive words 

Well, PICO won't work either. In Czech, pičo means cu*t. In Slovak piko is slang for meth. Also, it's already being used for the pico prefix.

[Simon]

hehe, how many engineers are going to get fired by managers that are not up to date with the new cool words.

[magic]

I encourage you to check the new "cipo" with the google translator (Polish->English). Now, the translation is not perfect. In that form, with "o" at the end it means more "You xxxx" than just "xxxx".

Nooo! Don't tell them, you @#$%

I want the lols
It's already hilarious enough that googling "cipa" in English brings up "children's internet protection act".

[madires]

And Japanese wouldn't want to rename their miso anyway. It's an essential in Japanese cuisine.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

So if MOSI in now cunt, then MISO ought to be.. 8===D ??

[Nominal Animal]

The world is full of terms and words that are offensive or funny in other languages – and even in their original language due to stylistics –, from TheRapistFinder  (TherapistFinder) to ChildSexChange (ChildsExchange) to brands and models like Mitsubishi Pajero (Mitsubishi Jerk in Spanish) to even peoples' names.
(The surname Paska common in Eastern Europe is literally Shit in Finnish, for example.)

This is at the core of this entire matter, too.

Instead of being offended or being ashamed for laughing at the words like little children, we should know how to adult, and understand that each term is embedded in their own context, and must be interpreted as such.  The coincidence is funny, yes, but the words are just words, defined in their own contexts.  There literally are no "bad words", only contexts and concepts that some people find offensive.  Using the meaning of a word in one context in a completely different context is lying, or (intentional) misleading at least.  Eradicating the expression of concepts will have zero effect, because new ones will just take their place.  If there was no need to express those concepts in the first place, they wouldn't exist; and since there is a need, new forms of expression will appear when old ones are banned – and history is full of proof of this.  It is futile.

The current movement is worse than proverbial 'fighting against windmills', because the movement is essentially about forcing everyone to 'fight against windmills', or risk rejection and cancellation.  It is literally insane.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Mitsubishi Pajero (Mitsubishi Jerk in Spanish)

Let me fix that 4u: Mitsubishi wanker in spanish.

[julianhigginson]

I love how reactionary Conservatives virtue signal by crying about how other people are virtue signalling. It's hilarious.

Anyway, point of my two links I posted on this topic today is it looks like despite the collective tantrum and echo chambering we are seeing in here from a handful of dedicated reactionaries and a couple of impressionable followers, it's gaining momentum in the real world.

Oh. And I'm not really concerned by people changing my SPI naming convention in any designs I do.... Chances are, if a couple of letters in a simple and standard serial comms convention are enough to throw you off your game that you can't work without changing it, well, there'll be other things that need rework in your "finished" job, and I'll change it back again while I'm fixing those mistakes anyway.

[Simon]

I love how reactionary Conservatives virtue signal by crying about how other people are virtue signalling. It's hilarious.

Anyway, point of my two links I posted on this topic today is it looks like despite the collective tantrum and echo chambering we are seeing in here from a handful of dedicated reactionaries and a couple of impressionable followers, it's gaining momentum in the real world.

Oh. And I'm not really concerned by people changing my SPI naming convention in any designs I do.... Chances are, if a couple of letters in a simple and standard serial comms convention are enough to throw you off your game that you can't work without changing it, well, there'll be other things that need rework in your "finished" job, and I'll change it back again while I'm fixing those mistakes anyway.

bearing in mind this forum seems to be one of the few places not telling people how to think and is not closing reasonable discussion down like every other electronics debating platform.

[SerieZ]

I love how reactionary Conservatives virtue signal by crying about how other people are virtue signalling. It's hilarious.

Anyway, point of my two links I posted on this topic today is it looks like despite the collective tantrum and echo chambering we are seeing in here from a handful of dedicated reactionaries and a couple of impressionable followers, it's gaining momentum in the real world.

Oh. And I'm not really concerned by people changing my SPI naming convention in any designs I do.... Chances are, if a couple of letters in a simple and standard serial comms convention are enough to throw you off your game that you can't work without changing it, well, there'll be other things that need rework in your "finished" job, and I'll change it back again while I'm fixing those mistakes anyway.

It is fairly obvious that your entire worldview is so fragile that any kind of Objection seems like crying to you. I find that sad, not hilarious.
Such is the Echo Chamber in here that you are allowed to share your nonsensical Views without having the thread locked or comments removed. I think the lack of Echo Chamber is what really bothers you. Maybe go back to Reddit or Twitter you might feel more comfortable there.

The thing about this is specific Issue is that I do not feel like complying to fascist, communists or any other variety of intrusive and/or authoritarian pricks trying to shove their worldview down my throat, especially if what they demand is a childlike temper tantrum, makes zero sense and only causes me and others a real hassle if not even unnecessary racial tensions in the worst case.
Actually it makes me want to do quite the Opposite if it were not for me knowing that this is actually what people like you and your Zealot friends want to be outraged over.

When your demands start to resemble like real attempt at a solution to a real Problem we can talk, but I doubt something like that will ever come from Zealots tho and it is not that I do not understand the Grievance behind this Issue - it is your lack of understanding what your demands imply.
So unless you start to show some basic empathy you can get f*ed like the spoiled brat that you seemingly are.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I love how reactionary Conservatives virtue signal by crying about how other people are virtue signalling. It's hilarious.

Anyway, point of my two links I posted on this topic today is it looks like despite the collective tantrum and echo chambering we are seeing in here from a handful of dedicated reactionaries and a couple of impressionable followers, it's gaining momentum in the real world.

Good to know, because that's why Donald Trump won :-)

[Simon]

This is not a fair argument, it's not a case of having 2 new ways of doing something and which should win, it's about changing something that there is nothing wrong with because it may offend someone that as far as I know does not even know about the terminology and probably has better things to worry about.

It reminds me of a first aid course I did - oh yea, I said this one already, anyway - the trainer told us about how to tell if someone was struggling for oxygen but was unconscious, you look at the colour of their facial skin, he pointed out that of course in the event the patient has "black" skin it is impossible to tell from the face so look in their mouth as that is similar colour in all people and so works. He then told us how when he explained this to another class once there was a black man in the audience and a white woman who decided to take offence on his behalf. So he asked the black man if he found it offensive to which he said no. Pointing out a difference is not racist, no more that using the word slave is racist. But apparently according to a woke white woman black people should get a worse quality/outcome of first aid because she gets to decide what offends them, and that sums up the current situation. Not to mention the fact that slavery happens now like ever before.

[daqq]

I love how reactionary Conservatives virtue signal by crying about how other people are virtue signalling. It's hilarious.

Anyway, point of my two links I posted on this topic today is it looks like despite the collective tantrum and echo chambering we are seeing in here from a handful of dedicated reactionaries and a couple of impressionable followers, it's gaining momentum in the real world.

First of all, I am not a conservative. I have a mix of views, some of which would be considered very liberal, some of which would be considered somewhat conservative.

To summarize your post:
A bunch of rabid SJW screaming their heads off and calling everyone around an insensitive racist because the world does not immediately bend to their whims, whilst they desperately try to find racism in terms like blacklist/whitelist: Not a tantrum.
Concerned engineers that would prefer to avoid the mess that can arise from changing a century's worth of documentation, terms etc. who do not see the inherit value in appealing to the hypersensitive fringe: A tantrum.

As to it gaining momentum: A bunch of tech companies had changed the internal terminology to get cheap marketing points. Whooptydoo. This summarizes it best:
https://9gag.com/gag/aYy7wBO?ref=android
Corporations do not care about causes. If they are supporting your cause they are not doing it out of high morals, or because they think it is ethical. They are doing it because they will gain cheap marketing points and have calculated that it's OK for them to do it. What the engineers inside of the company think can/will generally be a totally different matter.

If McDonalds could get away with serving endangered rhino meat and it would be a cheaper alternative that would not affect their bottom line negatively, they would do it.