'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[paulca]

I have seen those statistics, they are correct, but they don't describe the issue.

I recall they show that more whites are killed or injured by police than blacks each year.

However only roughly 12% of the USA is black.  Therefore you are three to four times more likely to be injured or killed by police.

I believe this was an example by one of those YouTube mathematicians on when statistics are used incorrectly with serious consequences.

[madires]

Even is Stephen Hsu is right about the statistics, he was an idiot for bringing it up while videos of obvious police brutality was circulating.  One powerful anecdote is more upsetting to people than reams of statistics.  Basically, he more than likely ended up fired for being an idiot courting controversy, not necessarily for the facts of the statistics themselves.

Possibly. Still, what happened with scientific disputes, free speech and the US constitution? Suddenly gone? The student's union has become an oppressive regime, something they maybe haven't intended while all the good intentions changed into the opposite.

[nuclearcat]

Finally, opposition to the cancel culture getting alive: https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/

[maginnovision]

Finally, opposition to the cancel culture getting alive: https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/

It doesn't matter. Almost all of our national media and tech companies running social media are on one side of these issues. They control the narratives and decide what's right and good.

[SilverSolder]

Even is Stephen Hsu is right about the statistics, he was an idiot for bringing it up while videos of obvious police brutality was circulating.  One powerful anecdote is more upsetting to people than reams of statistics.  Basically, he more than likely ended up fired for being an idiot courting controversy, not necessarily for the facts of the statistics themselves.

Possibly. Still, what happened with scientific disputes, free speech and the US constitution? Suddenly gone? The student's union has become an oppressive regime, something they maybe haven't intended while all the good intentions changed into the opposite.

You are right, but again, a senior person in a leading position of an institution....   using your entire brain is not optional!

[donotdespisethesnake]

I know all of that, but you've missed the point. It's no coincidence the word black, rather than African or even brown, were originally chosen to describe Africans, because it has negative connotations. Black animals are often seen as bad/evil, avoid black cats, the black sheep of the family etc.

It's stupid to talk about black and white people, because the terms aren't even descriptive! No one is black or white, but brown or pink.

No you have missed my point. It is a coincidence that African people were called black, and the association with evil. They were called black long before the idea of white supremacy. Historically races  mixed and treated equally. For example, a commander at a Roman camp in Britain was black. Of course, Romans thought their culture was superior, but the people who became Roman citizens was very broad.

It wasn't until Europeans were looking for excuses to go colonising and enslaving other continents, that the idea of white supremacy was created to justify it, backed up by bogus theology and science. The idea that Africans were called black because of association with evil is a modern retrofitting.

[coppice]

I have seen those statistics, they are correct, but they don't describe the issue.

I recall they show that more whites are killed or injured by police than blacks each year.

However only roughly 12% of the USA is black.  Therefore you are three to four times more likely to be injured or killed by police.

I believe this was an example by one of those YouTube mathematicians on when statistics are used incorrectly with serious consequences.

Why would you expect people to be killed in proportion to their number in a fair society? Some groups have far more interactions with the police. The number of black and white people killed by the police in the US is roughly in line with the number of interactions their group has with the police. The interesting question is why black people have far more interactions with the police in the US.

[coppice]

It wasn't until Europeans were looking for excuses to go colonising and enslaving other continents, that the idea of white supremacy was created to justify it, backed up by bogus theology and science.

This is nonsense. Nobody ever felt the need to justify these things. Most of the colonising and enslaving through history has been between neighbouring groups of roughly the same ethnicity. In the first World War people in the UK could be riled up to fight by bizarre assertions like "Belgians eat babies". Finding adequate ways to demonise "the other" has never required any significant effort, and certainly no iffy intellectual underpinnings.

[maginnovision]

The Hodge twins once told a story that one of them got pulled over for speeding 3 times in one day. It was because of racism... No wait it was that he was speeding. But he might have thought it was racism at the time because he had a poor mindset(victim mentality). They stopped thinking that way and things got better. It's not applicable to one race though. The same mindset pervades poor white people, poor Hispanics... If you think you can't change anything and people are keeping you from success you'll react accordingly and usually make things worse. It's the real problem with many people and communities that feel underprivileged. It's literally in their heads and nobody is stopping them from doing their best except themselves.

[james_s]

I have seen those statistics, they are correct, but they don't describe the issue.

I recall they show that more whites are killed or injured by police than blacks each year.

However only roughly 12% of the USA is black.  Therefore you are three to four times more likely to be injured or killed by police.

I believe this was an example by one of those YouTube mathematicians on when statistics are used incorrectly with serious consequences.

That is still only part of the story though as it assumes that the same percentage of all races encounter the police with the same frequency, and it assumes that the crime rate is identical across all races, which does not seem to be the case. I don't have the numbers in front of me but my recollection is that 12% of the population commits a much larger percentage of the serious crime in the nation. Now I don't actually think it's caused by their race but there are certainly cultural and socioeconomic factors. Anyway the point is that statistics can be twisted to show almost anything but selectively ignoring various factors and only looking at the portion that favors the results you want to show.

I kind of suspect that most of the people who see racism everywhere they look are simply projecting their own racism on everyone else. Likewise not being racist myself I tend to assume that race was not the motivation behind an incident. My first impression on most of the police incidents is that they were not racially targeted because why would the police target people of a particular race? I mean I wouldn't, I'd target people who are committing crimes, that's what the police are supposed to do and from what I see, it's what most of them are doing.

[coppice]

Even is Stephen Hsu is right about the statistics, he was an idiot for bringing it up while videos of obvious police brutality was circulating.  One powerful anecdote is more upsetting to people than reams of statistics.  Basically, he more than likely ended up fired for being an idiot courting controversy, not necessarily for the facts of the statistics themselves.

That's an interesting pro-lynch mob point of view.

We are at the current point due to years of people pandering to those spouting anecotes and myths, and making research, facts, and analysis dirty words. Stephen Hsu was foolish if his job meant anything to him, as he has seen people all around him people suffering for simply stating basic supportable information. However, what he did was the right thing for someone brave enough to do.

[james_s]

The Hodge twins once told a story that one of them got pulled over for speeding 3 times in one day. It was because of racism... No wait it was that he was speeding. But he might have thought it was racism at the time because he had a poor mindset(victim mentality). They stopped thinking that way and things got better. It's not applicable to one race though. The same mindset pervades poor white people, poor Hispanics... If you think you can't change anything and people are keeping you from success you'll react accordingly and usually make things worse. It's the real problem with many people and communities that feel underprivileged. It's literally in their heads and nobody is stopping them from doing their best except themselves.

I've seen this play out multiple times with several different (white) friends. One in particular, he was always the victim, I watched him make poor choices over and over and over again, he never learned and never changed because it was never his fault, always something or someone else. Another was always struggling financially, she was not stupid overall but she just didn't get it, constantly complained about the world, if she'd spent half the effort trying to better her situation as she spent complaining she would have been in a lot better shape. She'd be behind on the rent and then spend money on some stupid thing and I'd say what the hell are you doing wasting money on that when you can't pay the rent and she'd respond along the lines of "I'm already behind anyway, another $20 isn't going to matter!" 

[coppice]

I kind of suspect that most of the people who see racism everywhere they look are simply projecting their own racism on everyone else.

You don't have to suspect this. In books like Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility she spells out in great detail how she sees all sorts of racist badness in herself. Badness most of us would agree with as she describes it. Being wedded to the idea of intersectional group indentites, rather than individual responsibility, she projects this badness out to anyone white, or simply not quite brown enough to be clearly black.

[SilverSolder]

Even is Stephen Hsu is right about the statistics, he was an idiot for bringing it up while videos of obvious police brutality was circulating.  One powerful anecdote is more upsetting to people than reams of statistics.  Basically, he more than likely ended up fired for being an idiot courting controversy, not necessarily for the facts of the statistics themselves.

That's an interesting pro-lynch mob point of view.

We are at the current point due to years of people pandering to those spouting anecotes and myths, and making research, facts, and analysis dirty words. Stephen Hsu was foolish if his job meant anything to him, as he has seen people all around him people suffering for simply stating basic supportable information. However, what he did was the right thing for someone brave enough to do.

I thought we are at the current point due to unprofessional conduct by police officers performing an arrest and ending up killing the suspect?

If you ignore relevant context, you are not suitable for a senior leading position.  There's no shame in that, few are.  This is the problem Hsu ran into.

[madires]

Why would you expect people to be killed in proportion to their number in a fair society? Some groups have far more interactions with the police. The number of black and white people killed by the police in the US is roughly in line with the number of interactions their group has with the police. The interesting question is why black people have far more interactions with the police in the US.

That's a very interesting point! I think there is a possible problem with misunderstanding statistics as racism. Over here we have a similar issue with citizens of a specific country in the EU. If you are a police officer and it turns out when you're checking citizens of country X that 8 of 10 (just as an example) committed an offense and you check those more often and more thorough, is that because of statistics or are you racist?

[coppice]

The Hodge twins once told a story that one of them got pulled over for speeding 3 times in one day. It was because of racism... No wait it was that he was speeding. But he might have thought it was racism at the time because he had a poor mindset(victim mentality). They stopped thinking that way and things got better. It's not applicable to one race though. The same mindset pervades poor white people, poor Hispanics... If you think you can't change anything and people are keeping you from success you'll react accordingly and usually make things worse. It's the real problem with many people and communities that feel underprivileged. It's literally in their heads and nobody is stopping them from doing their best except themselves.

I've seen this play out multiple times with several different (white) friends. One in particular, he was always the victim, I watched him make poor choices over and over and over again, he never learned and never changed because it was never his fault, always something or someone else. Another was always struggling financially, she was not stupid overall but she just didn't get it, constantly complained about the world, if she'd spent half the effort trying to better her situation as she spent complaining she would have been in a lot better shape. She'd be behind on the rent and then spend money on some stupid thing and I'd say what the hell are you doing wasting money on that when you can't pay the rent and she'd respond along the lines of "I'm already behind anyway, another $20 isn't going to matter!" 

You will see the same thing if you go to a mind reading show. The magician (or con artist, depending on the exact nature of the show) will tell someone things they think the magician couldn't possibly know. An independently minded observer can usually see how the subject was basically waving a big flag with the information on it.

[SilverSolder]

Why would you expect people to be killed in proportion to their number in a fair society? Some groups have far more interactions with the police. The number of black and white people killed by the police in the US is roughly in line with the number of interactions their group has with the police. The interesting question is why black people have far more interactions with the police in the US.

That's a very interesting point! I think there is a possible problem with misunderstanding statistics as racism. Over here we have a similar issue with citizens of a specific country in the EU. If you are a police officer and it turns out when you're checking citizens of country X that 8 of 10 (just as an example) committed an offense and you check those more often and more thorough, is that because of statistics or are you racist?

It is part of the human condition to jump to conclusions based on what we see.   I get an entirely different reaction from people when I go to the park on a Harley, dressed in leathers and chains, than I do when driving there in a cute Citroen 2CV with an "Atomic Power - No Thanks" bumper sticker and a small child in the passenger seat...

[Nominal Animal]

Even is Stephen Hsu is right about the statistics, he was an idiot for bringing it up while videos of obvious police brutality was circulating.  One powerful anecdote is more upsetting to people than reams of statistics.  Basically, he more than likely ended up fired for being an idiot courting controversy, not necessarily for the facts of the statistics themselves.

Possibly. Still, what happened with scientific disputes, free speech and the US constitution? Suddenly gone? The student's union has become an oppressive regime, something they maybe haven't intended while all the good intentions changed into the opposite.

You are right, but again, a senior person in a leading position of an institution....   using your entire brain is not optional!

Not just an institution, a university.  Their very purpose is to challenge and to discuss scientific research.

The idea that university professors should "not rock the boat", should not talk about published articles if their content is against some prevailing winds is utterly repulsive to me; it's like giving a pass to cheating students because the entire academic review is just too much hassle.

Remember: the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.  If professors "should not" talk about published articles that are pertinent to the topics discussed, who could do it, then? Nobody? Fuck that.

[SilverSolder]

Even is Stephen Hsu is right about the statistics, he was an idiot for bringing it up while videos of obvious police brutality was circulating.  One powerful anecdote is more upsetting to people than reams of statistics.  Basically, he more than likely ended up fired for being an idiot courting controversy, not necessarily for the facts of the statistics themselves.

Possibly. Still, what happened with scientific disputes, free speech and the US constitution? Suddenly gone? The student's union has become an oppressive regime, something they maybe haven't intended while all the good intentions changed into the opposite.

You are right, but again, a senior person in a leading position of an institution....   using your entire brain is not optional!

Not just an institution, a university.  Their very purpose is to challenge and to discuss scientific research.

The idea that university professors should "not rock the boat", should not talk about published articles if their content is against some prevailing winds is utterly repulsive to me; it's like giving a pass to cheating students because the entire academic review is just too much hassle.

Remember: the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.  If professors "should not" talk about published articles that are pertinent to the topics discussed, who could do it, then? Nobody? Fuck that.

Again, you are 100% right.

Nevertheless, social progress and the advance of knowledge moves slowly.  It took more than 350 years before Pope John Paul II apologized for the Roman Catholic Church's condemnation of Galileo in 1633 for using his telescope to prove that the Earth moves around the Sun, which the Church regarded as heresy.

By the end of his trial, Galileo was forced to recant his own scientific findings as "abjured, cursed and detested," a renunciation that caused him great personal anguish but which saved him from being burned at the stake and instead accept house arrest for eight years before his death in 1642 at the age of 77.

There is something to learn from this story, both for the Galileos and the Popes among us...

[John B]

Wasn't Trump threatening to remove funding for US universities that didn't uphold constitutional ideals? If he made good on his threats, most of this academic censorship would be eliminated in short order.

Many universities seem to be more like churches with hedonistic excesses. Priests who gleefully dictate morality to the public whilst being overly concerned with the quality of their silk robes and comfortable lifestyles.....

[james_s]

Wasn't Trump threatening to remove funding for US universities that didn't uphold constitutional ideals? If he made good on his threats, most of this academic censorship would be eliminated in short order.

I don't wanna get all political but that's half the problem I have with that guy, he's constantly waving his dick around and making empty threats and rarely follows through. Wish he'd learn to shut his mouth sometimes, and under-promise but I don't think he's ever going to figure that out.

[Nominal Animal]

By the end of his trial, Galileo was forced to recant his own scientific findings as "abjured, cursed and detested," a renunciation that caused him great personal anguish but which saved him from being burned at the stake and instead accept house arrest for eight years before his death in 1642 at the age of 77.

There is something to learn from this story, both for the Galileos and the Popes among us...

Ah, I think I might now understand.

Yes, it was not at all surprising that Hsu got "cancelled": that is the state of affairs right now.  I brought it up since many might not believe how widespread this stuff already is – and physics is my own field.  (He didn't get fired from his chair, though; only the VP position.  He's still a prof there, as far as I know.)

It is a completely different question whether he did it knowingly as a calculated risk, or if he did it by accident.  This aspect did not occur to me at all before.
If he did fumble it, then maybe he shouldn't be a VP in the first place, because that sort of admin positions do require social skills for one to be able to do the job properly.

I guess I did conflate the responsibilities of a VP and a prof; apologies.  As a professor, one should be allowed to ask such questions.  But as a VP, one should be aware of the social aspects and possible repercussions.

(And thanks for helping me understand your point!)

[0culus]

Assistant and associate professors will have to watch out too since they don't have tenure yet and the traditional protections it implies.

[james_s]

The whole cancel culture thing is deeply worrying, and I'm sure it will not be long before it is eating their own. People jump on board with it but sooner or later something will come up that affects them, almost nobody will have lived their whole life without ever uttering something objectionable, whether out of anger, ignorance, or simply words that someone else can interpret in a way other than what they meant. People like to bring up that the first amendment protects freedom of speech but not freedom from consequences, and that it only protects you from the government punishing you but that's rather disingenuous as free speech is useless if the mob will convict and sentence you. It's a very toxic environment when people are afraid to merely play devil's advocate, question a narrative, or even be seen as not fanatical enough in supporting a cause. Absolutely nobody has their mind changed by force, try to punish a person or group for holding an opinion and you might superficially silence them or even destroy that individual but at the same time you validate their stance and they and those like them will dig in their heals. With a more gentle approach one can create an ally, people do change their opinion on various matters as I have myself at times, it's called personal growth. If you manage to "cancel" them all you've created is a bitter unemployed person who is likely to ally with others who are even more extreme than they are. It's just a bad situation all around and I don't see it getting any better for a while.

[SilverSolder]

The whole cancel culture thing is deeply worrying, and I'm sure it will not be long before it is eating their own. People jump on board with it but sooner or later something will come up that affects them, almost nobody will have lived their whole life without ever uttering something objectionable, whether out of anger, ignorance, or simply words that someone else can interpret in a way other than what they meant. People like to bring up that the first amendment protects freedom of speech but not freedom from consequences, and that it only protects you from the government punishing you but that's rather disingenuous as free speech is useless if the mob will convict and sentence you. It's a very toxic environment when people are afraid to merely play devil's advocate, question a narrative, or even be seen as not fanatical enough in supporting a cause. Absolutely nobody has their mind changed by force, try to punish a person or group for holding an opinion and you might superficially silence them or even destroy that individual but at the same time you validate their stance and they and those like them will dig in their heals. With a more gentle approach one can create an ally, people do change their opinion on various matters as I have myself at times, it's called personal growth. If you manage to "cancel" them all you've created is a bitter unemployed person who is likely to ally with others who are even more extreme than they are. It's just a bad situation all around and I don't see it getting any better for a while.

It is always hard to speak against prevailing beliefs.  People like the simplicity of sticking to what they "know" to be true.