'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[langwadt]

I agree with you.  Lots of people are taking this seriously now.  I know they mean well - They want to be kind people who do not offend others.  I respect them for that, but this seems to be out of all proportion now.

I think a lot of it is companies being afraid of seeming insensitive and losing money.  So nothing is too much trouble to be careful to leave nothing that could cause offense.  My non-white friends are not complaining about such things, it is seemingly white people who are complaining about them.  Some are well-meaning I suppose, but I wonder about the motives of the others?

Incidentally, your English is superb.  Like most languages is is harder to write than speak.  Yet I would not have known you are not a native speaker unless you told me.  You must have to concentrate and work very hard on subjects such as this, where the nuances are incredibly subtle at times.

I can however see why this must all be so scary for you.  It would be for me also as there are so many words and phrases that are in everyday use and yet you have to be cafeful over.  It was only a few weeks ago I made a really bad mistake.  A (black) friend asked if I was busy?  I was thinking about what I was doing and so said without thinking - "I am working like a slave on this".  There was an awkward silence BUT ONLY FROM ME.  My friend had not even noticed what I had said.

The worst I ever came across was a TV repair man in the early 80s I knew.  He had a very bad experience in a bar.  In Britain "a foreigner" is also another term for working for cash in hand, no tax and it does not go through the company's books.  He said a man came up to him on Satuday night who he knew a bit, because he had fixed his rented TV.  He said the TV was faulty and the family would have no TV over the weekend, and could he just come and have a look at it please?  He said he did not "do foreigners" and noticed with horror that the guy had brown skin.  The man went bezerk, thinking he had just been terribly insulted.  He pointed out he was NOT a foreigner, but born in Britain.  He treatened to call the head office and report him and so on.  He had never heard the term "foreigner" for doing a job off the books, so of course he thought it was a racist insult.  The TV repair guy said it took longer to calm him down than going to fix the blasted TV would have done.  Not only that, but to prove he was not a racist, he had to buy him a drink as well...

The English language can be one massive trap, sometimes more so if you are a native speaker as so much "throw-away" sayings seem full of problematic words.  So don't worry, even native speakers make mistakes all the time.

any idea why it is called "a foreigner"?, here  is literally called black work or working black I assume because it is often done after hours like moonshine

[magic]

According to the company, Twitter's engineers plan to remove nine insensitive terms, including whitelist, blacklist, master/slave, grandfathered, various gendered pronouns, and terms like man hours, sanity check, and dummy value. Each will be replaced with the following new terms, Twitter said.

Told you it never ends. Hope everyone enjoys the future they are creating.

They are dumb and brainwashed, they don't care.
And the liberals who were open minded enough to allow communist agents to infiltrate their education and entertainment will coincidentally enjoy it too, amazing how this world works.

I must say that despite his schizophrenia, Terry Davis was one of the sanest Americans of modern time.

God is perfectly just.

I’m at the point where I’m going to buy some popcorn for when people have had enough of this shit and smack it back to reality.

This
But I will have a separate bowl of for watching guys like you, no offence

[bd139]

Terry Davis was one of the sanest Americans of modern time.

And there goes your entire argument.

[magic]

Well, we still don't know what happened to Terry's space alien

But when you look at the rest of Americans, are they really that much better than him?
Mind why this thread exists, mind the loooong list of American companies which already jumped on the bandwagon.

[bd139]

Most of the population is batshit crazy yes. I said at the start of the whole coronavirus thing that I fear my fellow citizens more than any virus. I stand by that.

[Fred Basset]

any idea why it is called "a foreigner"?, here  is literally called black work or working black I assume because it is often done after hours like moonshine

You know that is a really good question.  I had not considered the origin before...

The only things I can think of, is either that it would be because it was "not from here" (the company you normally work for), or because it would be undocumened?

I will update this if I can ever find out a definitive answer.  Interesting what you say about black jobs meaning done when it is black outside so no one can see you.  It is also called the black economy for the same sort of reason.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Most of the population is batshit crazy yes. I said at the start of the whole coronavirus thing that I fear my fellow citizens more than any virus. I stand by that.

There is a saying "Individually people are stupid. But when you get a lot of people together, they are stupid and dangerous".

[Zero999]

All of those are using black to refer to the color rather than value.

But it's not very descriptive, since no one has black or white skin. In reality the darkest skin tone is dark brown and the lightest is pink.

It's quite likely that Europeans were being racist, by referring to Africans as black and themselves as white. We don't normally refer to other races by their skin colour. The word black has negative connotations, blackmail, black magic, black death etc. and the word white is typically associated with purity and lightness. Perhaps if we're going to change any words to reduce offence, we should stop calling people of African decent black and Europeans white?

[donotdespisethesnake]

All of those are using black to refer to the color rather than value.

But it's not very descriptive, since no one has black or white skin. In reality the darkest skin tone is dark brown and the lightest is pink.

It's quite likely that Europeans were being racist, by referring to Africans as black and themselves as white. We don't normally refer to other races by their skin colour. The word black has negative connotations, blackmail, black magic, black death etc. and the word white is typically associated with purity and lightness. Perhaps if we're going to change any words to reduce offence, we should stop calling people of African decent black and Europeans white?

The idea that light is good and darkness is bad goes back probably to early hominids gathered round a fire to ward off predators (aka evil). It's deeply ingrained in all cultures:

The first words of the bible

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good;

The association with skin color is largely accidental, since those early humans were black. Skin color obviously is associated with melanin, nothing to do with evil.

[Zero999]

All of those are using black to refer to the color rather than value.

But it's not very descriptive, since no one has black or white skin. In reality the darkest skin tone is dark brown and the lightest is pink.

It's quite likely that Europeans were being racist, by referring to Africans as black and themselves as white. We don't normally refer to other races by their skin colour. The word black has negative connotations, blackmail, black magic, black death etc. and the word white is typically associated with purity and lightness. Perhaps if we're going to change any words to reduce offence, we should stop calling people of African decent black and Europeans white?

The idea that light is good and darkness is bad goes back probably to early hominids gathered round a fire to ward off predators (aka evil). It's deeply ingrained in all cultures:

The first words of the bible

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good;

The association with skin color is largely accidental, since those early humans were black. Skin color obviously is associated with melanin, nothing to do with evil.

I know all of that, but you've missed the point. It's no coincidence the word black, rather than African or even brown, were originally chosen to describe Africans, because it has negative connotations. Black animals are often seen as bad/evil, avoid black cats, the black sheep of the family etc.

It's stupid to talk about black and white people, because the terms aren't even descriptive! No one is black or white, but brown or pink.

[Ed.Kloonk]

For those of us old enough to remember this the last time it came up. I thought we settled this long ago. And anyway, don't they, statistically, have bigger swangs?


I'm    if they're 

Like two little Fonzies.

[paulca]

I'm still wearing my Race Condition T-shirt.  I'm just waiting on the next (yes next) person to ask me if it's racist.  It says:

Knock Knock
Race Condition
Who's there?

[Nominal Animal]

Kjelt, I know that sounds a good idea, but there are serious repercussions that are not immediately obvious.  You see, Finnish police and Finnish media decided a few years ago to do just that.  (The police even stopped gathering and publishing statistics on ethnicities of criminals for exactly this reason.)

That sounds like it way overshot its original intention.

Yes, exactly.  I do believe the original intent was good, positive.

But, instead of its intended effects, it became a tool for people to avoid acknowledging issues that makes one question their policies/values/etc., and gave the subset of immigrants who are not interested in following Finnish law a simple but powerful tool to silence all criticism and avoid criminal justice: just shout "racist!".

When software projects started using Codes of Conduct that went further than "don't be a dick" (requiring neopronoun use and banning harsh criticism of poor-quality submissions), they didn't actually make the projects more inclusive at all.  Because of the CoC makes it risky to criticize submissions – you can get censured by your peers if your "tone" is found wanting –, many developers ignore them completely.  This divides the project developers into separate clades, "inner circles", that discuss things in informal chats, but rarely interact outside their own circle.  The only way around seems to be for each project to have "dedicated" developers that do answer in a polite manner to all new developer queries, and act like middlemen between the clades and new contributors and other projects, but that's quite a lot of knowledge and developer hours tied into, well, handholding.

(Of course, the small number of activist developers are now happy, because their own clade is now using language they enjoy, without fear of having to deal with negative emotions.  I suspect that they consider the emerged clades natural, as after all they do somewhat fit the intersectionalist worldview.)

Banning words has never yielded anything positive.  Very soon, a new term will appear in its stead, with the context evolving to fulfill the communications needs -- even if those needs are offensive.  However, humans are inquisitive, and they will always theorize why the original term was banned, whether the stated reason was the real reason, or not.  This can easily lead to even worse assumptions, like "group ζ is so inept/volatile/lacking in self-control, that we need to control even the language we use around them so they won't go crazy".  It is these – unfortunately natural, because humans have evolved to be guessers and extrapolators – assumptions that cause significantly more prejudice/harm than the potential generalizations originally!

[Ed.Kloonk]

I'm still wearing my Race Condition T-shirt.  I'm just waiting on the next (yes next) person to ask me if it's racist.  It says:

Knock Knock
Race Condition
Who's there?

You know, it's sad that most of the people you encounter would have an automatic trigger reaction to that. I've been called names over the years and more so even recently. Yet, when I read your post I got the joke immediately. Then I read your preamble. Then I went "Hmmm."

I've visited your part of the world. I remember a TV show called Love Thy Neighbor. Last time I was in LDN I noticed that people were going about their chores just fine. Nobody caught my attention anymore than, say, a red-head would.

And in regards to Gingers. I wish them no pain. I think they should be killed humanly.

[Nominal Animal]

You could easily lose a job or worse (much worse) if you had something ideologically unsound to say, or, say, voiced opinions on sensitive topics, like, say, the 1968 Soviet occupation brotherly intervention.

Michigan State University's Vice President, physicist Stephen Hsu was forced to resign last month, because he dared point out research that showed that statistically, there is no racial bias in police shootings in the USA.  The student union demanded his resignation, because that was against the Black Lives Matter pledge the University had made, accusing Hsu of "scientific racism".

[tggzzz]

I remember a TV show called Love Thy Neighbor.

That always was grim, but there was one that was even worse: "Mind Your Language".

The BBC is, I believe, not showing the classic "Till Death Us Do Part" due to racism concerns. Apparently audiences nowadays are to dim to realise that Alf Garnett's frequent racist statements are designed to show that racism is wrong and stupid.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I remember a TV show called Love Thy Neighbor.

That always was grim, but there was one that was even worse: "Mind Your Language".

The BBC is, I believe, not showing the classic "Till Death Us Do Part" due to racism concerns. Apparently audiences nowadays are to dim to realise that Alf Garnett's frequent racist statements are designed to show that racism is wrong and stupid.

John Cleese has time after time defended the Fawlty Towers episode The Germans. He said that, like Life of Brian, it was pointing out the stupidity of stupid shit.

After all that, now one part of that episode that has never before attracted scrutiny suddenly caused those in charge to erase the episode even though it had nothing to do with it's actual 'target'.

LOL

[PlainName]

done when it is black outside

Nothing to do with outside. Just black being no colour, no light, not visible. If whoever coined the term had thought deeply about it they might have said 'transparent', but that's a mouthful and a bit posh, so black it is.

Same thing occurs with white collar: you wear a white collared shirt if you're in a desk job. Doing so in a manual job would cause too much dirt to show on it, so manual jobs wear darker coloured collars typically some shade of blue. Nothing to do with working in daylight.

[paulca]

And in regards to Gingers. I wish them no pain. I think they should be killed humanly.

Just tie them down in the sun, minimal effort.

[Ed.Kloonk]

And in regards to Gingers. I wish them no pain. I think they should be killed humanly.

Just tie them down in the sun, minimal effort.

[madires]

Michigan State University's Vice President, physicist Stephen Hsu was forced to resign last month, because he dared point out research that showed that statistically, there is no racial bias in police shootings in the USA.  The student union demanded his resignation, because that was against the Black Lives Matter pledge the University had made, accusing Hsu of "scientific racism".

Those students have disqualified themselves from becoming scientists. But they have potential as politicians of an oppressive regime. Anyway, it's the same danger we face when the do-gooders trying to ban master and slave gain sufficient momentum. The result would be superficially hidden racism and a lot of collateral damage without changing anything regarding racism. Racism is in the heads of people. That can't be easily fixed by renaming terms.

[SilverSolder]

Michigan State University's Vice President, physicist Stephen Hsu was forced to resign last month, because he dared point out research that showed that statistically, there is no racial bias in police shootings in the USA.  The student union demanded his resignation, because that was against the Black Lives Matter pledge the University had made, accusing Hsu of "scientific racism".

Those students have disqualified themselves from becoming scientists. But they have potential as politicians of an oppressive regime. Anyway, it's the same danger we face when the do-gooders trying to ban master and slave gain sufficient momentum. The result would be superficially hidden racism and a lot of collateral damage without changing anything regarding racism. Racism is in the heads of people. That can't be easily fixed by renaming terms.

Even is Stephen Hsu is right about the statistics, he was an idiot for bringing it up while videos of obvious police brutality was circulating.  One powerful anecdote is more upsetting to people than reams of statistics.  Basically, he more than likely ended up fired for being an idiot courting controversy, not necessarily for the facts of the statistics themselves.

[Nominal Animal]

I just realized something:

Can you hate something you find truly funny?

I do not think so.  If people generally cannot hate what they find funny, wouldn't it make sense to encourage "racist" (no, funny stereotype) jokes about every kind of people?

One of my favourite jokes about Finns is a Norwegian one: The Great Misfortune at Lake Inari. (Den store ulykken ved Inari-sjøen, or something like that.)

Matti and Pekka, two Finnish lumberjacks, decided one winter day to go ice fishing at Lake Inari.
Since it is a large lake at 68°57'N, and it was end of January, it snowed heavily, with visibility just a few feet.
With great effort, the two men drilled holes in the ice using a hand auger – ice was over half a meter thick –, and started fishing.
It was cold.  And pretty miserable, too.
Suddenly, Matti remembered that he had packed an unopened bottle of Koskenkorva vodka!
He dug it out, cracked it open, and took a hefty swig.
The stinging heat flowed down his throat, and his mood brightened.
He thought, "I bet Pekka would appreciate a gulp too."
So, he yelled at Pekka, "Come here! I've got Koskenkorva!"
Alas, it snowed too heavily, and Pekka was too far: he didn't hear.
That was the Great Misfortune at Lake Inari.

[Nominal Animal]

Michigan State University's Vice President, physicist Stephen Hsu was forced to resign last month, because he dared point out research that showed that statistically, there is no racial bias in police shootings in the USA.  The student union demanded his resignation, because that was against the Black Lives Matter pledge the University had made, accusing Hsu of "scientific racism".

Those students have disqualified themselves from becoming scientists. But they have potential as politicians of an oppressive regime. Anyway, it's the same danger we face when the do-gooders trying to ban master and slave gain sufficient momentum. The result would be superficially hidden racism and a lot of collateral damage without changing anything regarding racism. Racism is in the heads of people. That can't be easily fixed by renaming terms.

Even is Stephen Hsu is right about the statistics, he was an idiot for bringing it up while videos of obvious police brutality was circulating.  One powerful anecdote is more upsetting to people than reams of statistics.  Basically, he more than likely ended up fired for being an idiot courting controversy, not necessarily for the facts of the statistics themselves.

Ah, yes: Do not bring up relevant hate facts, because people are so unable to control their impulses they'll tear you apart.  Especially at an university.

This does not exactly sound like a rational society to me; nor a society I want to be a part of; nor what the generally accepted role of universities are in our societies.

If the most educated of us cannot even look at statistics without getting into a destructive frenzy, I say we should head back to the savannah: we're not ready for civilization yet.

[SilverSolder]

Michigan State University's Vice President, physicist Stephen Hsu was forced to resign last month, because he dared point out research that showed that statistically, there is no racial bias in police shootings in the USA.  The student union demanded his resignation, because that was against the Black Lives Matter pledge the University had made, accusing Hsu of "scientific racism".

Those students have disqualified themselves from becoming scientists. But they have potential as politicians of an oppressive regime. Anyway, it's the same danger we face when the do-gooders trying to ban master and slave gain sufficient momentum. The result would be superficially hidden racism and a lot of collateral damage without changing anything regarding racism. Racism is in the heads of people. That can't be easily fixed by renaming terms.

Even is Stephen Hsu is right about the statistics, he was an idiot for bringing it up while videos of obvious police brutality was circulating.  One powerful anecdote is more upsetting to people than reams of statistics.  Basically, he more than likely ended up fired for being an idiot courting controversy, not necessarily for the facts of the statistics themselves.

Ah, yes: Do not bring up relevant hate facts, because people are so unable to control their impulses they'll tear you apart.  Especially at an university.

This does not exactly sound like a rational society to me; nor a society I want to be a part of; nor what the generally accepted role of universities are in our societies.

If the most educated of us cannot even look at statistics without getting into a destructive frenzy, I say we should head back to the savannah: we're not ready for civilization yet.

A person in a leading position is expected to know that humans are not 100% rational...   if he did not know that humans are not rational and likely to react badly to the way he presents himself then he is not suitable for the job.  If he did know, and did it anyway, he is also not suitable for the job, for being a sh!t-stirrer.  Think moderator vs. hot headed participant in an Internet debate - which role do you expect senior figures to play?