'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[tggzzz]

That's why this change is needed. Technical terms should reflect technical reality, not be references to abhorrent practices of white people.

"White people"? That's pig ignorant, both now and historically! A sensitive soul could also regard it as a racist trigger point

5s(!) googling brings up
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1305547.stm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Sudan#Modern-day_slavery
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/sudan-path-democracy-blocked-modern-slavery-pact-190701071559618.html
and another 10s would no doubt reveal many more examples.

[madires]

That's why this change is needed. Technical terms should reflect technical reality, not be references to abhorrent practices of white people.

The common idea that slavery involves only white masters and black slaves is plain wrong. Currently we have white slaves in some countries, And there are also black masters. History tells us that in Africa black masters had black slaves, and some made a fortune by selling slaves to the westerners. The idea of "white masters and black slaves" is racist by itself. Oopsie.

[Nominal Animal]

History tells us that in Africa black masters had black slaves, and some made a fortune by selling slaves to the westerners.

"Had"?  Slavery is still a problem in Africa today.

Apparently, it is only historical slavery by whites that is offensive.

[SilverSolder]

History tells us that in Africa black masters had black slaves, and some made a fortune by selling slaves to the westerners.

"Had"?  Slavery is still a problem in Africa today.

Apparently, it is only historical slavery by whites that is offensive.

How-so-ever that may be, changing the names of communications roles played by integrated electronic circuits is sure to solve all the problems!   

[Nominal Animal]

History tells us that in Africa black masters had black slaves, and some made a fortune by selling slaves to the westerners.

"Had"?  Slavery is still a problem in Africa today.

Apparently, it is only historical slavery by whites that is offensive.

How-so-ever that may be, changing the names of communications roles played by integrated electronic circuits is sure to solve all the problems!   

Yes, well, the less we mention the evil, the weaker the evil gets, right?  If we stop using all unjust terms and speak of no evil,  we'll live in peaceful utopia for eternity! 

[coppice]

Yes, well, the less we mention the evil, the weaker the evil gets, right?  If we stop using all unjust terms and speak of no evil,  we'll live in peaceful utopia for eternity! 

but people who know the electronics industry know Utopia really exists - http://www.tatung.com (yes, their name is the Chinese for Utopia).

[madires]

History tells us that in Africa black masters had black slaves, and some made a fortune by selling slaves to the westerners.

"Had"?  Slavery is still a problem in Africa today.

... and still have. But all that is ignored by the people wanting to ban the terms master, slave and so on. It's a social media frenzy which pops up from time to time. The sad thing is that some companies hop on and amplify the frenzy while it's really easy to research the topic to get the facts and a complete picture.

Apparently, it is only historical slavery by whites that is offensive.

And when someone blames only the whites for slavery despite facts and history clearly showing that blacks and others had/have slaves also, it can be called racism against whites. And ironically those "someones" are whites. Ouch!

[SilverSolder]

History tells us that in Africa black masters had black slaves, and some made a fortune by selling slaves to the westerners.

"Had"?  Slavery is still a problem in Africa today.

Apparently, it is only historical slavery by whites that is offensive.

How-so-ever that may be, changing the names of communications roles played by integrated electronic circuits is sure to solve all the problems!   

Yes, well, the less we mention the evil, the weaker the evil gets, right?  If we stop using all unjust terms and speak of no evil,  we'll live in peaceful utopia for eternity! 

The child-like naiveté of it is almost touching.  It is a little sad when someone wants to help, wants to make a difference, and ends up wedded to a misguided plan.   It is kind of a solar roadway project, in a way...   well meant, superficially looks good, attracts plenty of interest due to looking somewhat plausible, but woefully short on effectiveness when you look under the covers.

[SerieZ]

This whole Topic reminds me that we are trapped in a big mental asylum build on a rock floating through space.
Kids who never suffered their ancestors injustice complaining to people who had no part in anything of it either over terms which are not related to what happened in the slightest.
The biggest problem is that these folks don't realize the only thing holding them down is their own group... just like a bucket of crabs.

[coppice]

The biggest problem is that these folks don't realize the only thing holding them down is their own group... just like a bucket of crabs.

Its quite normal to see this happening in disadvantaged groups. Many working class kids try to shame anyone in their group who tries, through hard work or raw talent, to make progress in life. The colour of their skin is irrelevant.

[SilverSolder]

The biggest problem is that these folks don't realize the only thing holding them down is their own group... just like a bucket of crabs.

Its quite normal to see this happening in disadvantaged groups. Many working class kids try to shame anyone in their group who tries, through hard work or raw talent, to make progress in life. The colour of their skin is irrelevant.

By enforcing a "social contract of misery", those who can't or don't want to do any better (or those who do OK exploiting those even more miserable than themselves) can feel they are OK.  Of course, that whole construct breaks down if members of the group move on and demonstrate that you can do much better outside it...   so they naturally want to clamp down on it.   (Hmmm wonder if this applies to nationalists...)

[SerieZ]

The biggest problem is that these folks don't realize the only thing holding them down is their own group... just like a bucket of crabs.

Its quite normal to see this happening in disadvantaged groups. Many working class kids try to shame anyone in their group who tries, through hard work or raw talent, to make progress in life. The colour of their skin is irrelevant.

That is the kind of behavior that really should be discouraged.
When I was a Kid in school someone having his mother insulted and not reacting violently to such offense was considered weak - From what Ive seen now the kids shrug it off and those who cant handle their emotions are being laughed at and frowned.
That is some good change of values IMHO

[magic]

What is really offensive is promoting some form of equivalence between intelligent humans and machines.

Not equivalence but similarity: the same thought patterns that you apply to machines, somebody else applies to men, women and nonbinaries. This is about removing those thought patterns from common language, making them feel weird and out of place altogether, regardless of context. Another small step towards the big goals of humanity.

What is really offensive is expecting that people can't tell the difference.

Of course there are people to whom there is no difference and you know it. If you aren't racist, this isn't targeted at you.

Besides, you probably aren't even offended, just saying that you are. You hippie generation taught this trick to kids, the kids are now using it back at you, all the time. And it works like it always did. Same with the 1984-esque method of social engineering by changing the language to change the way people perceive reality and ultimately change how they act and change the reality. It's hardly a new idea and it's being used with the same success it had always been. Maybe slightly faster and that's what makes you oldies feel uncomfortable.

Please realize that as long as somebody, somewhere is suffering, there will never be "enough" social progress.
You boarded a train that has no brakes, the ride never ends

"White people"? That's pig ignorant, both now and historically! A sensitive soul could also regard it as a racist trigger point

5s(!) googling brings up

Jokes on you because I'm a sociopath and you wasted 5 seconds by falling for Poe's law despite claiming you are an Internet veteran

The idea of "white masters and black slaves" is racist by itself. Oopsie.

That's the definition of racism which was used to create in white people the perception that racism is wrong. Now that the perception exist, racism has different definitions to achieve new goals, mostly centered about equality of outcome.
If you want to argue with somebody you think is an SJW, at least familiarize yourself with the latest SJWisms and don't waste your time posting things which will be dismissed right away by any SJW

[tom66]

Equality of outcome?  Are we really going down that rabbit-hole?

[tggzzz]

"White people"? That's pig ignorant, both now and historically! A sensitive soul could also regard it as a racist trigger point

5s(!) googling brings up

Jokes on you because I'm a sociopath and you wasted 5 seconds by falling for Poe's law despite claiming you are an Internet veteran

Your self-description is noted.

I tend to think the best of people, unless there is a good reason to believe otherwise. Sometimes I am mistaken, but that's rarely a cause for regret.

You removed the context for my statement in order to be able to make your point. That is not good practice. Here is the context; I'm content to let anybody else make up their own mind...

That's why this change is needed. Technical terms should reflect technical reality, not be references to abhorrent practices of white people.

"White people"? That's pig ignorant, both now and historically! A sensitive soul could also regard it as a racist trigger point

[EEVblog]

Jokes on you because I'm a sociopath and you wasted 5 seconds by falling for Poe's law despite claiming you are an Internet veteran

And basically trolling it seems.
Be careful how far you push it here.

[SerieZ]

I think using the "You Can Lead a Horse to Water" phrase regarding the collapse of the USSR left it pretty clear how that brain ticks.
Or maybe I am overly sensitive 

[Nominal Animal]

Nevertheless, it is important to realize that basically none of the people on either side of these issues are evil.

The proponents for the forced language are ruled by their emotions in a very limited context (sometimes indistinguishable from pathological ideology; brainwashing), rejecting rational, analytical discussion and wide-range analysis.  And that is the root of the problem.

This is a poor analogy, but it is somewhat like dealing with kids.  You don't punish them for making a honest error, you help them to learn to do better.

We cannot teach these people, because they believe we are 'other', antagonists.  We must not let them be, because they cause damage to the very structure of our societies – we all know what their frenzy looks like, with dozens dead in their "experiments" and "zones" in the United States, people losing their jobs and livelihoods because of claimed "offense" often years or even decades later; "offense" that for some other people is completely ignored.  Their actions are emotionally dictated, chaotic.  They don't listen to reason, and they ignore any kind of proof that does not fit into their ideological framework – and if you find some that does, they'll either label you as a evil troublemaker (so they can ignore the message) or the proof tainted (because of some social offense by some people somehow associated with the proof); they will not change their opinion in any case, not in any kind of numbers that matter.

How can we fix this?

In the past, only violence or exile has worked.  I reject that, because I don't see these people as an enemy, just unwittingly dangerous – like people who are asymptomatic carriers who refuse to isolate themselves.  But, doing nothing will lead to a society that will likely reject me, as I am unable to feel and act like they demand everyone must; and one where future generations have much less freedom or opportunities than we have right now.  Personally, to me it looks very much similar to how other cultures in history have self-imploded, and at least it will be interesting to observe how that happens.

[SerieZ]

Nevertheless, it is important to realize that basically none of the people on either side of these issues are evil.

The proponents for the forced language are ruled by their emotions in a very limited context (sometimes indistinguishable from pathological ideology; brainwashing), rejecting rational, analytical discussion and wide-range analysis.  And that is the root of the problem.

This is a poor analogy, but it is somewhat like dealing with kids.  You don't punish them for making a honest error, you help them to learn to do better.

We cannot teach these people, because they believe we are 'other', antagonists.  We must not let them be, because they cause damage to the very structure of our societies – we all know what their frenzy looks like, with dozens dead in their "experiments" and "zones" in the United States, people losing their jobs and livelihoods because of claimed "offense" often years or even decades later; "offense" that for some other people is completely ignored.  Their actions are emotionally dictated, chaotic.  They don't listen to reason, and they ignore any kind of proof that does not fit into their ideological framework – and if you find some that does, they'll either label you as a evil troublemaker (so they can ignore the message) or the proof tainted (because of some social offense by some people somehow associated with the proof); they will not change their opinion in any case, not in any kind of numbers that matter.

How can we fix this?

In the past, only violence or exile has worked.  I reject that, because I don't see these people as an enemy, just unwittingly dangerous – like people who are asymptomatic carriers who refuse to isolate themselves.  But, doing nothing will lead to a society that will likely reject me, as I am unable to feel and act like they demand everyone must; and one where future generations have much less freedom or opportunities than we have right now.  Personally, to me it looks very much similar to how other cultures in history have self-imploded, and at least it will be interesting to observe how that happens.

I feel the same as you do but I have to remind myself of this often as well. You see, I DO get angry when I see hypocrisy at work.
My approach is to at least try and call out Dogmatic behavior whenever I seerecognize it... which drains a lot of Energy.
Some of my friends suggested when talking about this that Switzerland is not like the USA and it will never be as bad or similar here but I have to retort that this kind of behavior can already be seen here as well.
It is incredibly Creepy and sometimes I am having a hard time trying to stay optimistic.
Knowing that I am not alone with those thoughts does help.
Knowing that smart, capable people whose opinions I respect can also fall for Dogmatic Views does not.
I wish I could just shrug those off as Idiots... but then I would be no better.
 

[PlainName]

Jokes on you because I'm a sociopath and you wasted 5 seconds by falling for Poe's law despite claiming you are an Internet veteran

And basically trolling it seems.
Be careful how far you push it here.

As a non-participant, it comes across to me as more of a piss-take than trolling. Often, he is taking the piss out of the ones he is pretending to be like or identify with, but, as is also quite common, his opposite number is too involved to see that and thinks he is being serious.

[tggzzz]

Jokes on you because I'm a sociopath and you wasted 5 seconds by falling for Poe's law despite claiming you are an Internet veteran

And basically trolling it seems.
Be careful how far you push it here.

As a non-participant, it comes across to me as more of a piss-take than trolling. Often, he is taking the piss out of the ones he is pretending to be like or identify with, but, as is also quite common, his opposite number is too involved to see that and thinks he is being serious.

That can indeed be the case; context is important. Magic chose to remove the context, and I re-inserted it in my response to the message that eevblog quoted.

I'm content for people to draw their own conclusion.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Jokes on you because I'm a sociopath and you wasted 5 seconds by falling for Poe's law despite claiming you are an Internet veteran

And basically trolling it seems.
Be careful how far you push it here.

Come on! I for one find it funny One has to be very clueless not to see what's going on.

[SerieZ]

Jokes on you because I'm a sociopath and you wasted 5 seconds by falling for Poe's law despite claiming you are an Internet veteran

And basically trolling it seems.
Be careful how far you push it here.

As a non-participant, it comes across to me as more of a piss-take than trolling. Often, he is taking the piss out of the ones he is pretending to be like or identify with, but, as is also quite common, his opposite number is too involved to see that and thinks he is being serious.

He is taking the piss, however I suggest reading all his previous posts in this thread.

[tggzzz]

Jokes on you because I'm a sociopath and you wasted 5 seconds by falling for Poe's law despite claiming you are an Internet veteran

And basically trolling it seems.
Be careful how far you push it here.

Come on! I for one find it funny One has to be very clueless not to see what's going on.

I think Dave is right to come down hard on trolling. It is an extremely effective technique for diluting the value of a forum, and for sucking up a lot of the moderators' valuable time.

If you like trolling, and it can be a useful technique, then there are other places where it can be used and is used. If you want trolling, start with usenet, e.g. sci.electronics.design, or farcebook, or twatter. I do use those for light relief

Personally I like have a place for civil, civilised, interesting discussions - i.e. this forum.

[wilfred]

It is an extremely effective technique for diluting the value of a forum, and for sucking up a lot of the moderators' valuable time.

Moderators made over 10% of the posts in this thread. You might value their time more than they do.

Personally I like have a place for civil, civilised, interesting discussions - i.e. this forum.

Amen to that.