'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[julianhigginson]

I mean, here's a guy rallying against the use of the word "you" in singular form from a few centuries ago. (bottom paragraph of page)
IF ONLY WE HAD LISTENED TO HIM, WE WOULDN'T BE IN THIS MESS.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=hQCAXr0OmDcC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=corrupt+and+unsound+form+of+speaking+thou&source=bl&ots=K94jKqxTiX&sig=4HQpeGdvehlrEsl3YFWvitqZIFk&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=corrupt%20and%20unsound%20form%20of%20speaking%20thou&f=false

I bet he had perfectly reasonable and acceptable views around slavery, too.

[PlainName]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

[PlainName]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

[Nominal Animal]

It's language. It's always changing. It changes for plenty of reasons. Getting upset about *one* instance of words changing for the specific purpose of relieving some perceived level of suffering in some group of people seems (even if it seems like "tokenism" or 'white saviourship virtue signalling" does that even matter that much?) seems, well, a little bit off.

I find it odd that you treat this as fait accompli, something that has happened organically, and not as a very small minority trying to force everyone else change, because of their lack of control over their own emotions.

because no matter how ridiculous it might be, it's really not going to cause anyone reading this any measurable harm.

You mean, any harm you are willing to measure.  I've already mentioned a lot of harm it actually does – in particular, in analogous situations (human trafficking) it has been shown to make the situation only worse for the roughly ten million humans living right now in slavery, because using the term is now considered offensive.

By the way, I do understand I really should not have replied to you.  You are way beyond changing your opinion on this, no matter what kind of factual evidence anybody would show, because just like certain other members here, and a vast majority of those demanding equity, you are ideologically possessed:  No critical thinking and analysis, only repeating the same unfounded emotionally-based arguments and demands over and over again.

I feel bad for you, because I know you believe you are on the "good side", and believe this is all for a positive outcome, and that "we" are just being an obstacle for progress.  A perfect example of why the old adage, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", is so apt.

[EEVblog]

And the good news is, once the new terms get decided on (people will come to a consensus about what they all want to use)

 

You do realise the ridiculously tiny magnitude of people pushing for this, right?
Only a fraction of a percent of people in the industry have any idea this debate is happening, let alone care even if they did know about it.

It's language. It's always changing. It changes for plenty of reasons. Getting upset about *one* instance of words changing for the specific purpose of relieving some perceived level of suffering in some group of people seems (even if it seems like "tokenism" or 'white saviourship virtue signalling" does that even matter that much?) seems, well, a little bit off.  because no matter how ridiculous it might be, it's really not going to cause anyone reading this any measurable harm.

Anyone is free to change anything they want, go for it. Just don't be surprised when most other people don't give a rats arse and don't follow along.

[SilverSolder]

[...]  in analogous situations (human trafficking) it has been shown to make the situation only worse for the roughly ten million humans living right now in slavery [...]

Shouldn't we think of something better / more effective to help those people, than changing some words?

[nuclearcat]

You mean, any harm you are willing to measure.  I've already mentioned a lot of harm it actually does – in particular, in analogous situations (human trafficking) it has been shown to make the situation only worse for the roughly ten million humans living right now in slavery, because using the term is now considered offensive.

Exactly. When, for example, i say that i see with my own eyes how the citizens of some countries (mostly Ethiopia, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Phillipines) are exploited as slaves in the arab countries, there is things need to be done urgently, how to help them, all those busy bees, "wrestlers with words", pretend that they dont see such problems.
Sometimes it is really easy to help at least in something, for example i used google translate and found out what "phrases" in specific languages are used for "bad things" in social networks, hunted such groups and people, and reported in various abuse teams and LE agencies. Saw some positive results. Point is that there is real criminals behind, and you can't brag about it in your twitter, as even you are in safe country (i'm not), you might face real revenge.
Those "brave fighters" have a much more trending topics how they can stay in the spotlight, get attention of media, and all for cheap and absolutely safe for their asses - just by changing a few words in the comments of code or attacking some poor dudes who dare to speak words forbidden in newspeak they are inventing.
And they always have a "very, very important topic" (and totally useless in reality), which is not worth a damn, and about which they instantly forget as soon as it stops trending, not noticing that part of this useless battle tactics, "cancel culture", often leaving smoking ruins behind them in process and this cancerous smoke creating very bad tumors on tech and science.
For example on some scientific subjects it is simply impossible to see unbiased research on racial or gender differences (and they do exist, it's DNA), as they are guaranteed to become victims. Even if you study, for example DNA-related vulnerability of certain races to something unpleasant, like sexually transmitted diseases, you wont get published (or might get cancelled) if it’s at least somehow unpleasant for certain “protected” races. And this is an example of how it can do exactly opposite, harm these races, since just significant part of the medical research will not be published and topics wont be researched.
Or can we find out for sure whether there is harm from hormone replacement therapy at an early age or will be the scientist who publish such study cancelled? I think you know the answer. Same again, leaving trans people more hurt in the end, they might get serious health problems, since no one wants to explore topics for which they can lose a career.
Or how damaging the “CoC (Code of conduct)” that has been imposed on many open source projects, after which many experts are afraid to criticize really stupid ideas, express their opinion, to not to be “cancelled”, to not be declared a witch, and watch how their career burned in flames by neo-inquisitors.
And you can't just stay away and try to be neutral, because now you will be burned too, like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9hg9to/sage_sharp_claims_top_linux_kernel_developer_theo/

[DimitriP]

[...]  in analogous situations (human trafficking) it has been shown to make the situation only worse for the roughly ten million humans living right now in slavery [...]

Shouldn't we think of something better / more effective to help those people, than changing some words?

It's the most cost-effective "solution". The leaders that support it get credit, the companies that support it get credit. The people that support it feel useful as being part of  "the change"  without realizing the extent of  their "usefulness".
More on being useful here:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

[daqq]

And the good news is, once the new terms get decided on (people will come to a consensus about what they all want to use) it'll become pretty easy to tell what most people are doing, whether they describe it in old words or new words.

That's the thing - you do not have consensus - if you need proof of that just look at this thread. There's maybe two or three people who are all for it, a few who are OK either way and the rest a definite nope. In reality you have a very small percentage of loud fringe cases looking for imaginary problems and then screaming their heads off when someone dares disagree with them, instantly branding them racists*. The only seeming of consensus you get is because a few large corporations want to get cheap marketing points for seeming woke and sensitive. For them though it's not about actually being oh so woke (I hate the word), it's about cheap marketing and hoping that they don't get branded racist on twitter by someone who doesn't really understand engineering, but saw the word 'slave' in an application note once it was pointed out to him.

The whole current situation can be summed up that a very small percentage wants to change a century's worth of documentation, accurate language and valid information because someone's (not theirs mind you) feelings might get hurt. The same thing applies to male/female, although that's apparently a way to insult the trans community. Somehow.

* - which cheapens the word greatly.

[james_s]

Shouldn't we think of something better / more effective to help those people, than changing some words?

People like a nice easy thing so they can "do something" without actually having to do very much. There are many things that can be done to actually help people and prevent some of the situations people are upset about but the actions that are effective are not easy or fast. I'm reminded of the marches for breast cancer and such, it has never made sense to me, marching around does nothing to fight cancer, everyone is already aware so there's no need to raise awareness, and if you want to raise money why not do something useful/productive and donate the proceeds to an organization that actually researches cancer treatment? It's much simpler to just go join a march though and feel like you're making a difference.

[EEVblog]

I'm reminded of the marches for breast cancer and such, it has never made sense to me, marching around does nothing to fight cancer, everyone is already aware so there's no need to raise awareness, and if you want to raise money why not do something useful/productive and donate the proceeds to an organization that actually researches cancer treatment? It's much simpler to just go join a march though and feel like you're making a difference.

Reminds me, I should do another one of these if the opportunity arises again. Sadly though that was the last year that event was run.

[magic]

I mean, here's a guy rallying against the use of the word "you" in singular form from a few centuries ago. (bottom paragraph of page)
IF ONLY WE HAD LISTENED TO HIM, WE WOULDN'T BE IN THIS MESS.

Are you arguing that English isn't the most dumbed down, least expressive and most illogical of European languages?

And nowadays you also have singular 'they' and even singular 'are' to use it with and you will soon have two different names for SPI masters. Way to go.

Maybe the Anglosphere doesn't perceive it as a problem, all of you wallowing in your cesspool since the day of birth, but your whole culture is increasingly looking like a joke to outsiders. Just sayin'

edit
And why you need to care?
Because you have outsourced everything including reproduction and education and run 100% on immigration.
If more people like blueskull or me keep deciding to bail out of there, you will be done for.

edit edit
Do you know what is the entirety of modern Western culture summed up in one sentence?

It's taking pride in being so "powerful" and "progressive" that you can get away with dumb ideas.

But it won't last. The UK was a global power just 100 years ago and today they are totally irrelevant and, most recently, shunned by a large chunk of continental Europe because of their internal conflicts and indecision. So much for the UK.
Are you willing to bet that America will still be such a big deal in 2120 if they are built on more or less the same culture and ideology?

[tggzzz]

Are you arguing that English isn't the most dumbed down, least expressive and most illogical of European languages?

And nowadays you also have singular 'they' and even singular 'are' to use it with and you will soon have two different names for SPI masters. Way to go.

I appreciate the sense in which you say "nowadays", but that will confuse Americans.

The singular "they" has been in documented use since 1375, i.e. >600 years.
https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/

I do understand that English isn't your first language, so you are forgiven

[julianhigginson]

I find it odd that you treat this as fait accompli, something that has happened organically, and not as a very small minority trying to force everyone else change, because of their lack of control over their own emotions.

No, the deal is, language changes all the time, and people used to deprecated terms get upset about it all the time. It's a natural feature of any living language. I get a bit unerved by modern language trends myself, but at least I've got the presence of mind to analyse why rather than just react angrily.

I'm sure there's even earlier rants about language changing than the one I linked, though that one does seem particularly hilarious now. 
Singular, you, indeed...  blasphemy!

what's interesting is the very selective nature of offence that "some" people have about "some" changes.

You mean,

NOOOOOOO!!!!!! 17TH CENTURY GUY IS TRIGGERED ENOUGH ALREADY!!! PLEASE STOP! HE WILL CRY!! THOU RT DOIN' HIM BIG SAD!

any harm you are willing to measure.  I've already mentioned a lot of harm it actually does – in particular, in analogous situations (human trafficking) it has been shown to make the situation only worse for the roughly ten million humans living right now in slavery, because using the term is now considered offensive.

I tried to find what you were talking about - is that the thing you wrote on laws around street prostitution causing worse human trafficking (slavery) a few pages back?? because I don't see how changing some words around communication between inanimate objects is at all an even remotely analogous thing. Like... one is a law, and the other isn't a law for a start... please use your famous logic and reason to make the link if you can.

Also, risking going far off topic "the progressives" are generally sex worker positive these days, so any modern prostitution laws which drive sex work underground that you might like to point out are likely to be an authoritarian thing, more than a something someone who is happy to change the usage of "master and slave" in tech contexts also supports.

I don't claim to represent anyone but myself, but I'm pretty sure most people talking about changing the words master and slave in technical contexts are fine for you to use slavery terms to describe actual slavery.  Even as they'd prefer to start moving away from slavery terms used to describe things that are not slavery (like, say, two inanimate objects communicating, EVEN when one initiates and controls the communication)

My understanding is it's not be about making the words disappear, it's about removing those words form the context of technical discussions where they apparently are used by some people to deliberately bully other people. And maybe also even about not diluting/normalising them.

By the way, I do understand I really should not have replied to you.  You are way beyond changing your opinion on this, no matter what kind of factual evidence anybody would show, because just like certain other members here, and a vast majority of those demanding equity, you are ideologically possessed:  No critical thinking and analysis, only repeating the same unfounded emotionally-based arguments and demands over and over again.

no way. The most emotional arguments in here by far are the slippery slopes. Pure imaginary fearmongering. NOTHING to do with the subject at hand, 100% emotional reaction.

Now I've held off quoting any of them, because rather than calling anyone in particular out, I was kind of thinking some people might like the chance to read back on what they wrote and consider that maybe changing some terminology in relation to communication between machines isn't actually going to lead to the actual end of the world... but I'm more than happy to cut and paste someone's emotional hysteria from earlier in this thread, if you'd like. I can guarantee you'll find no hysteria at that level from the people in here who are OK with the idea of changing a few words.

And while we're talking about emotional arguments, another fun thing I've seen in this thread is thought terminating cliches... (this is something you see from people of all walks of life - but when conservatives get so triggered and upset by an idea that they can't even discuss it, they tend to throw up words like "SJW" and "socialism" and these are such BAD HORRIBLE terms that anything you spit them at is instantly destroyed in your own mind, and doesn't need to be considered any further)

If you want to read up a bit on thought terminating cliches you might come to notice that a few arguments in here against this proposed terminology change are the exact mirror image of some coloured haired tumblr using teenager yelling "actual nazis" at people who admitted they ate at a mcdonalds once.

Hopefully you're capable of noticing nobody in the pro change of terminology side in this thread has called anyone a Nazi. But you can find at least one or two "SJW"s used in a certain way. (#notallpeoplewhosaySJW)  It's certainly an indication of people getting emotionally invested in a position and refusing to think about it at all.....

Again, I'm not looking to victimise anyone or call anyone in particular out, but maybe some people will recognise their own language here and have a think about what they want to be a reflection of.

And as for the cherry on top of this precious wonder of a paragraph you gifted me: At the end of the day logic and rationality is  process,  not a marketing buzzword.. you show the world you are capable of following a logical process by the quality of your arguments. Not by sitting there smugly and claiming "I AM LOGICAL, YOU ARE IDEOLOGICALLY OBSESSED" without managing to do the work to show it... That's just a bunch of empty positioning designed to market yourself or your argument as valuable and smart without having to put the work into it.

I feel bad for you, because I know you believe you are on the "good side", and believe this is all for a positive outcome, and that "we" are just being an obstacle for progress.  A perfect example of why the old adage, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", is so apt.

I feel bad for you, because I know you believe you are on the "good side", and believe all this is a massive injustice against all the good people who happily use the words master and slave every day but have never once lynched anybody, and that "we" are simply causing trouble for the sake of it. A perfect example of why the old adage, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", is so apt.

[julianhigginson]

Shouldn't we think of something better / more effective to help those people, than changing some words?

Awesome idea. Yes, Lets do it!

[julianhigginson]

You do realise the ridiculously tiny magnitude of people pushing for this, right?
Only a fraction of a percent of people in the industry have any idea this debate is happening, let alone care even if they did know about it.

well I sure didn't know about it till I read this thread.

I expect others will catch on in time if it's meant to be.
I also expect it's probably meant to be, but hey I've been wrong before.

Anyone is free to change anything they want, go for it. Just don't be surprised when most other people don't give a rats arse and don't follow along.

All good. I'm not for forcing anyone to change.. I'm only talking about what I want to do on the topic of this EEVblog forum thread.

[magic]

The singular "they" has been in documented use since 1375, i.e. >600 years.
https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/

Of course somebody will always bring up the damn Shakespeare.

It wasn't in common use. I haven't seen it on the Internet until feminists and later LBGTsts started pushing for it in the 2010s.

And that was only after a failed attempt to force 'xhe' or something like that. I remember reading posts from early 2010s where good liberals were using those new pronouns, that was eye sore

My understanding is it's not be about making the words disappear, it's about removing those words form the context of technical discussions where they apparently are used by some people to deliberately bully other people. And maybe also even about not diluting/normalising them.

Of course. If we remove the words then the thoughts themselves will become impossible
Myself, I will just start calling those niggas 'peripherals' from now on

[tggzzz]

The singular "they" has been in documented use since 1375, i.e. >600 years.
https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/

Of course somebody will always bring up the damn Shakespeare.

Er. No. That was a couple of centuries before Shakespeare started writing plays.

It wasn't in common use.

Er no. It was in common use.

I haven't seen it on the Internet until feminists and later LBGTsts started pushing for it in the 2010s.

And that was only after a failed attempt to force 'xhe' or something like that. I remember reading posts from early 2010s where good liberals were using those new pronouns, that was eye sore

Yet again you are rather late to the party; making definitive incorrect statements merely emphasises that.

Try the late 80s/early 90s on usenet, with people trying to push "hir" instead of his/her.

Better luck next time, thank you for playing.

[EEVblog]

My understanding is it's not be about making the words disappear, it's about removing those words form the context of technical discussions where they apparently are used by some people to deliberately bully other people.

That is a ridiculous assertion.
Cite one example of where someone has used master/slave in a technical document context to "bully other people"
And even if you could cite a few examples, is that a reason to abandon a standard industry term that has been used and taught for generations?
If it is, then seriously, what's next? And there is always a next.

[Zero999]

Lots of words have been used in the past to bully other people, which are not bad words in themselves for example: thick, dumb, backwards etc. It depends on the context.

[julianhigginson]

Cite one example of where someone has used master/slave in a technical document context to "bully other people"
And even if you could cite a few examples, is that a reason to abandon a standard industry term that has been used and taught for generations?

So do you want one or not? It sounds like there's not much point from your following sentence. Which also seems very much like an appeal to tradition.

I'm expecting most of the good direct examples will be American, where I'm not from...  Because slavery references are more associated with white supremacism over there than here.... In Australia, our worst white supremacists tend to go for straight out name-calling from what I've seen (not that I directly experience it myself, though, being white)

If it is, then seriously, what's next? And there is always a next.

We've established English is a living language, and all languages slowly change as ideas come and go, and new generations grow up.

[julianhigginson]

Lots of words have been used in the past to bully other people, which are not bad words in themselves for example: thick, dumb, backwards etc. It depends on the context.

But who is talking about removing those words from circulation? From what I can see, it's just from a technology context.

[paulca]

Well this is my point. Positive discrimination is still discrimination. I rarely fill in the race box on a form unless it's medical. If you want equality or to make sure you treat people equal then what better than not knowing their race!

Agreed.

However, here in Northern Ireland we have the FEC system of monitoring not race, but "community".  Aiming to address bias between members of the "Loyalist" community and the "nationalist" communities.

You get this form with every job application.  It not only asks which race you are, but also which
 "religion", catholic or protestant you consider yourself from. 

It includes "None" or "N/A" or "Prefer not to say".

However, on ticking those boxes, they are just ignored.  They look up your primary school and other records and label you with the community/religion based on that.

If you are applying for a job as an Environmental officer for a council and hold two degrees in environmental science and a PHD in the specific area the job is in, but the religion tagged onto you exceeds their quota, they will employ someone else.  You have been "positively" discriminated on a label which someone plucked out of thin air, based on historic divisions. 

The FEC information is supposed to be collected as anonymously as possible, save that a pure ID number, but is supposed to be off limits to access by HR.  So you can't even ask if you were discriminated against, they are not legally allowed to tell you. 

If a company is meant to have at least 25% catholic but only have 15%, they WILL bias the interview and decision.

Having working in more than one office handling applications, the anonymity is superficial.  One office manager kept a list linking the FEC IDs to the employees names, completely illegally of course.

[magic]

Of course somebody will always bring up the damn Shakespeare.

Er. No. That was a couple of centuries before Shakespeare started writing plays.

Doesn't matter. It wasn't common in recent times, or wasn't nearly as common.
I don't recall ever seeing it on Slashdot, for example, and I was reading it for most of the 2000s.
I mean common everyday usage, not some ultraliberal nerds discussing politics on some message board somewhere.
Usenet is not Internet too, I have never been there either, but fair enough, that hits close.

By the way, I tracked down a sample of one (among many) pioneering efforts in this latest wave of gender neutrality, straight from 2011:

The offender, for eir part, should stop offending as soon as ey realizes that the amount of pain eir actions cause is greater than the amount of annoyance it would take to avoid the offending action, even if ey can't understand why it would cause any pain at all. If ey wishes, ey may choose to apologize even though no apology was demanded.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/9thqSN8HDLM3LTxK5/offense-versus-harm-minimization

Proudly brought to you by the rational-utilitarian-effective-altruism movement

[nuclearcat]

Shouldn't we think of something better / more effective to help those people, than changing some words?

Awesome idea. Yes, Lets do it!

I can list you problems that i know very closely, they exist right now, and which i participated (unfortunately cannot share details, as this issue involves standing against organized crime, so i cannot trust random folks over internet, you need to contact those who fight with this publicly).
1)Several exUSSR countries (most are ukrainian and belorussian), Moroccan, Romanian girls are being trafficked in several countries, to work as "dance", "actor", but in fact they are forced to do alcohol drinking, sexual exploitation, often hooked to drugs and etc.
Girls being lured by "agencies" and there is no website even to show the truth, what their life will be. I believe just making and promoting website where survivors stories can be published (some are brave enough to do that), and how agencies will ruin their future - will save many girls from this disaster.
2)As i mentioned before, citizens of philipinnes, sri-lanka, ethiopia, bangladesh travelling to arab countries, where their passport is being taken away(read about "kafala") and they are often locked up at homes and being beaten, unable to report anywhere about their suffering, some are so desperate, that they do suicide by jumping from balconies.

And they need solutions, including technical ones, for example how those poor souls can report about their suffering. They need more people in western countries talking about this, making pressure to their governments, so western governments pressure on relevant countries to take action in specific cases and ask to improve laws.

And every time bored westerners do loud useless stuff, like nonsense about changing words, they are taking away hope of those poor soulds, chance of highlighting their issues, real issues.
This is not some "invented sufferers from seeing word slavery". This is people who is being beaten and dying each day, who can be named and there is many such names.
I’m even wondering if you will continue the cheap verbal battles defending this useless initiative with the word “slave”, or still try to save real people from slavery.