'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[Cerebus]

Nice strawman, where did you get him?

There is no strawman. Look into PDF I linked. 2 out of 3 pictures from google, they are only for presentation purposes. Again look into that PDF before claiming strawman. About particularly killings by police, you could simply google for numbers.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/
http://www.cjcj.org/news/8113
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/

A straw man (or strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, meanwhile the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects.

I said that the immediate issue was that there was a long well documented history of the American police murdering black people, not what words were used that might (at a stretch) have offensive connotations.

You set up the strawman that this has something to do with blacks committing the majority of crimes.

Even if true, that has nothing to do with the documented murders of black people by American "peace" officers - hence it is a strawman argument. Do you not have a grandmother, did she not teach you that "two wrongs don't make a right"?

[Cerebus]

By the way, Nominal Animal, does "orjapiiskuri" literally mean "overseer" or "supervisor" in Finnish?

No, 'orjapiiskuri' = slave-whipper.
Overseer = 'valvoja': inspector, observer; also one who does not sleep.
Supervisor = 'ohjaaja': instructor, pilot/driver (for a vehicle), guide.
Leader = 'johtaja': leader, conductor, manager; the one in front.
Master's degree = 'maisteri', from "magister degree".
Master = 'mestari', as in best at something, or champion.
The closest word to master as in master/slave context, is probably 'isäntä', which is a derivative of 'isä', father, and means host/householder/landlord.  There is a female variant, 'emäntä', a derivative of 'emä', the root word for mother – although 'äiti' is nowadays used for humans, and 'emä' for animals – which means the same thing.  Both are a bit archaic, though, and mostly used when someone hosts an event or such.
When men were hired to work at a farm, they were called 'renki'; women hired for household tasks, 'piika'.

I do not think I've ever met a household servant myself.

English, used properly, is a very expressive language. Unfortunately it gains a lot of its expressive power from context sensitivity. That has led to English overloading words with multiple meanings that have to be divined from context.

"Master" is one such word - it can have the connotation of being accomplished at something "master of one's trade", of being in charge of something or someone "the master of the Queen's music", "the master of the household", "the master of the ship", an original or primary copy of something "master recording", "master mould", a person with a higher degree "master's degree" and as the formal pronoun for a young man "Master Smith" (cf Mister Smith).

Six meanings for one word, not strictly including the sense of master/slave as in flip-flops. That leads me to wonder aloud: "Does this mean that the people complaining about the use of 'master' in the technical sense are just not very good at English comprehension?".

[fcb]

Genuinely interested in what terms we should use in systems to replace MASTER/SLAVE?

What terminology are the big boys (Keysight/Tek etc..) using? What accurately conveys the relationship between equipment or parts of a system?

What about appropriating BDSM terminology, surely that won’t offend anyone – DOM/SUB? Or perhaps just change to MASTER/SERVANT.

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

[Cerebus]

Law enforcement in USA is too rotten to be saved. It needs a total reboot.

It's not undoable. It may have passed most of the world by that the Royal Ulster Constabulary in Northern Ireland was completely disbanded and replaced by the Police Service of Northern Ireland for very similar reasons. There was an issue with entrenched Protestant/Catholic discrimination (in the peculiar Northern Irish meaning of Protestant/Catholic) within the RUC that could not be adequately addressed with less drastic measures.

[GlennSprigg]

Yes, I'm not a U.S. resident, but the World sees all the news for years, especially as there is much more body-cam
footage nowdays, and personal filming, and countless vid-clips on the likes of Youtube that we all see. And it's
disgusting, though we are generally much more peaceful here in Australia.  American police stop...
Guns drawn. "Step out with your hands in the air. Walk backwards to me. Do not reach for anything. Now get
face down on the ground!!"  Other gun(s) on any passengers...
Same scenario in Aussie Land...
Police walk up to the driver. No guns drawn... "Bloody hell mate, what the hell were you doing back there!! That
was a bit dangerous. May I see your license please". 
They're not ALL perfect, but no-one (generally) gets 'accidentally' killed!! 

Major difference is - in US guns are legal and often people carry them, so police expect any civilian might draw the gun and shoot, using legal gun this civilian own, just because he have mental issues today.
And i think this is major reason of police violence. Easy to die, but easy to pull the trigger by mistake as well, as stakes are high from point zero.

We do actually understand that here in Australia. However, I think I was agonizing over bringing
the 'Gun' debate into the conversation... Sorry!!     Which unfortunately is 'part' of the original
problem!  If 'VIRTUALLY' no-one has/uses guns on the street, then the 'Police' would not have to
be so pro-active in 'using' (warranted or not) equal deadly force in the majority of confrontations!   
It SURPRISES us mere Aussies, when like after the Sandy Creek Massacre, the damn NRA has the ignorance to
recommend MORE guns, in Schools!! (Fight with might). If only .001% of 'thugs' the Police pulled over or dared
to question, had a gun, they wouldn't even need a fucking 'Taser', let alone a .38 in the back. Now there are
15-20% more guns in the U.S. than 'People'!!  I'm sorry, but they don't see the 'Forrest' for the 'Trees' ?? 
YES!!! there are a lot of asshole Cops there, but no guns means no shooting back!!

[Cerebus]

As for the other stuff, it’s not as though it’s being banned or censured.

That's patently false.

If that were true, then any individual treating others differently because of their race would not be racist, eitherg (because they're just an individual, not the society in general, and "not suitable as a proxy for the society in general").  But doing so, demonstrably is.

Banning and censure mean when the government outlaws things because of their content. That hasn’t happened.

That's an unrealistically narrow definition. Facebook and Twitter censor posts based on their own whims or societal pressure with no government intervention. People self-censor for fear of reprisals either from government or other groups or individual people all the time. People and institutions other than government censure people all the time.

[madires]

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

whitelist -> allowlist
blacklist -> blocklist

I've just seen that in the slides of a NANOG-79 talk about RPKI two weeks ago. Seems to be an early adopter.

[nuclearcat]

I got much more interesting observation.
As far as i see these "renames" are mainly pushed by those who are descendants of "enslavers nations".
Genius idea, if there is no word, then memory of this events will fade, everyone forgets their ancestors crimes and precise definition, so their dark and unpleasant pages of history are forgotten.
It seems mainly not those who suffered from slavery feel pain, but descendants of those, who commit this crime want to bleach their history.

Who initiated changes master/slave:

Python - Stinner Victor, French.
https://bugs.python.org/issue34605

Django - Flavio Curella, Italian
https://github.com/django/django/pull/2694

Drupal - Bart Feenstra, Dutch(?)
https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/2275877

CouchDB, Redis - Naomi Slater, German
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COUCHDB-2248

Golang - Filipo Vasolrda, Italian
https://go-review.googlesource.com/c/go/+/236857/

[Nominal Animal]

English, used properly, is a very expressive language. Unfortunately it gains a lot of its expressive power from context sensitivity. That has led to English overloading words with multiple meanings that have to be divined from context.

Fully agreed.

Finnish, on one hand, has a smaller core vocabulary, but on the other hand, new words can (and often are) created as variants from the core words.  Onomatopoeic words are also quite common.

To exaggerate a bit, any Finn can be a Shakespeare in creating new words that others immediately understand.

Unfortunately, young people, probably because of the prevalence of English media (we don't e.g. dub movies, we subtitle them – the only exception is media for kids), insist on using Finglish, or English-derived words, and not their Finnish equivalents, socially.  You see this especially in nicknames and pseudonyms; they're extremely often in English, even in otherwise purely Finnish text (like "messages from readers" sections in newspapers, and Finnish websites).  Only us older folks and non-city-dwelling folks like to use Finnish everywhere.

It is an open question as to how much terms affect thinking.  Research has shown that forced speech – i.e., using specific terms when speaking about things – is actually the one form of brainwashing that works: if you are forced to say only positive things about a subject, you'll feel more positive about that subject in relatively short timespans (weeks to months), even without excessive repetition.  (Apologies, I cannot find references right now; the paper I read was published in the last fifteen years.)

(One could argue that this means that banning certain terms, and forcing people to use only "positive" terms about things or they won't have access to the internet or work in general – even if provided by private organizations –, sounds like a good way to combat racism.  I find it tyrannical: an attempt to impose a pattern of thinking on my brain, denouncing my individuality and freedom to think how I wish, reducing myself to an eusocial interchangeable unit.  I'm willing to go to war, to kill, to avoid or topple such a system.)

It is well known that "native" and "foreign" languages tend to be processed in slightly different parts of the brain, though.

My fear is that the only-superficial-understanding – a topic I keep ranting about, sorry! – is stifling critical thought, and pushing humans away from contemplation and analysis into simple emoting.

Six meanings for one word, not strictly including the sense of master/slave as in flip-flops. That leads me to wonder aloud: "Does this mean that the people complaining about the use of 'master' in the technical sense are just not very good at English comprehension?".

A very good point.

I suspect these people refuse to think rationally, and instead emote; certain posts in this thread have enforced that suspicion even further.

[Nominal Animal]

If 'VIRTUALLY' no-one has/uses guns on the street, then the 'Police' would not have to
be so pro-active in 'using' (warranted or not) equal deadly force in the majority of confrontations!   

I suspect it is less about guns per se, and more about the sort of anonymity that urban environments provide.

In Finland, there is a very, very stark difference in police behaviour between Helsinki (Helsinki-Espoo-Vantaa region, comprising about a fifth to a quarter of the entire population of the country, in a relatively small area) and the rest of the country.  This was ridiculously obvious even in the Finnish "Cops" TV series, "Poliisit", and in similar TV programs.

Yet, the gun issue is completely reversed.  Most people living in the city area do not have guns, whereas hunting weapons are ubiquitous in the rural areas.  (And the policing regions are so large and the cops so few – only about 1.3 per 1000 – that it is definitely not a case of "but everyone knows the cops in the rural areas", because they definitely do not.)

In Helsinki, the cops are typically brusque and issue commands, whereas elsewhere in Finland, they start by talking.  A typical case is a drunk person causing trouble or fighting, and elsewhere in Finland the cops often wrestle with these, whereas those in Helsinki rapidly resort to hard takedowns or a tazer.

I don't know why this is so, but as I said, it is self-evident even in the "Poliisit" clips shown on Youtube: you can immediately tell if the police are from Helsinki/Uusimaa region, or elsewhere, based on how they deal with an encounter.

I have no idea how to fix the issues with police in the USA, and obviously that part of their system needs reform (having a full percent of your population in jail at any given time is a pretty good indication that your justice system has issues).  I just wanted to point out that guns or gun violence is likely not any kind of a root cause, even with criminals; it is much more likely about dissociation from society or some such.

As to myself, I've found that talking to ones neighbours makes it much easier to deal with disturbances; and that remembering that most offenses stem from ignorance and stupidity and NOT from malice, makes it easier to understand others.  Classifying others as "racist" for, well, using a word in their technical sense, doesn't.

We need better conflict resolution, not labels.  (And by that I mean we need to talk about the root causes and find real-world actions we could do to fix things without making things worse, and not just placating others emotions and egos because they feel slighted somehow.)

[dave j]

Six meanings for one word, not strictly including the sense of master/slave as in flip-flops. That leads me to wonder aloud: "Does this mean that the people complaining about the use of 'master' in the technical sense are just not very good at English comprehension?".

It might be they are just familiar enough with English to know that some people deliberately use words with multiple meanings so they can claim they meant a non-offensive one when challenged. Sometimes they do it deliberately to cause controversy. Sometimes it's as part of dog whistling (whether political or not). Other times they are too cowardly to admit they meant to be offensive and try to weasel out of taking responsibility for their actions.

[GlennSprigg]

Well said, Nominal Animal,  and I've also learnt a bit more about your side of this Planet!!

[Cerebus]

I suspect these people refuse to think rationally, and instead emote; certain posts in this thread have enforced that suspicion even further.

I think that it's more probably the other way around. Acting instinctively and emotionally is the default human condition, it takes a 'pause for thought' and effort to be strictly rational about something.

If you perceive something unusual, perhaps out of the corner of your eye, or you hear an unusual noise, your immediate reaction is emotional, instinctive. Your brain goes "unusual = possibly a threat" and it takes much longer before you go "Oh, it's only a shadow" or "It's an unexpected small child jumping out and shouting". I suspect that this innate response is the basis of all racist type behaviour. The rational man goes "Oh, he's just like me, just a different skin colour/has round eyes/has a different traditional costume", the irrational clings to his initial fear response and rationalizes the fear (rather than rationalizing the non-threat). Familiarity is important too - I grew up in a town that was almost exclusively white and when I first moved to London I was very aware of black faces on the street. I now live in a London borough where "white British" makes up 14% of the population and not only do I not notice someone's race, on a trip to Scotland a few years back it felt 'odd' to be on a street where all the faces were white. I didn't become instinctively non-racist by some effort of the will or intellect, but just by everyday familiarity making "not white" something that even the base, instinctive processes of my brain don't bother to process.

Conversely, the response here to the calls to "rename anything that might be remotely associated with race" is an instinctive, emotional one. The response has often been "Are you calling me a racist?" in the same vein as "Did you just spill my pint?". It's quite understandable and calls on us to make the intellectual effort to listen, think and analyse. After doing that, I still think that renaming master/slave flip-flops et al is a nonsense and that the call to do so is an emotional one ("won't someone think of the children") and in my harsher moments think that the call is being made by people who would are (1) unaffected by it, and (2) rather make a noise about something than stop, think, and do something constructive.

That the debate is being held in apparently adult words doesn't preclude that the underlying interaction is emotional. In terms of Eric Berne's transactional analysis the apparent debate is an 'adult <=> adult' transaction, but the actual underlying interaction is 'child <=> child'. The call for renaming is an apparent 'parent => child' transaction and our instinctive reaction is the teenager's "I hate you". In fact, now I start thinking in terms of transactional analysis (one of the few bits of psychological theory that doesn't seem like complete hooey to me) it sounds like a very useful tool for analyzing/managing this 'debate'.

[Cerebus]

I got much more interesting observation.

I think that it's up to your readers to decide if it's "more interesting". 

But seriously, it's an interesting point; I don't know if it's true, but it's food for thought.

[Cerebus]

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

whitelist -> allowlist
blacklist -> blocklist

I've just seen that in the slides of a NANOG-79 talk about RPKI two weeks ago. Seems to be an early adopter.

"blocklist" has been in use for donkey's years, from well before anyone (other than a drunk sociology student) was going to take issue with "blacklist" as covert racism.

As I've said elsewhere, English heavily overloads words. Any attempt to blackball the overloaded word "black", except as a strict colour designation is doomed to failure. My dictionary lists 13 different uses of black as an adjective, 7 as a noun, 2 as a verb (and it's sorely lacking there) and those don't include compound idioms such as blackball.

If we're going to maul the language in the name of non-racism, let's invent a new word specifically to describe 'black' people - who of course aren't actually black (apart from one Nigerian chap I once met). If we can invent the festival of "Kwanzaa" out of whole cloth perhaps we can repurpose the word and start calling all the people we currently call "black" kwanzaans, it has the merits of having roots in a specifically "black" cultural phenomenon. Then there ought to be no question whether one's use of 'black' is crypto-racism.

Edited to add:

This isn't entirely unrealistic. We used to refer to people as "Negroes" or to "coloured people" and those terms have been deprecated for "black" or "people of colour". If we can manage that transition, why not one to a novel term that unambiguously identifies "people of ultimately African decent with skin that is not some shade of pink or a Mediterranean skin colour".

[0culus]

Genuinely interested in what terms we should use in systems to replace MASTER/SLAVE?

What terminology are the big boys (Keysight/Tek etc..) using? What accurately conveys the relationship between equipment or parts of a system?

What about appropriating BDSM terminology, surely that won’t offend anyone – DOM/SUB? Or perhaps just change to MASTER/SERVANT.

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

See, here's the real problem with technical jargon. In the current climate, no matter how 'sensitive' you are, you will never be able to assign labels to anything without offending somebody, so the sensible course of action is to ignore all that and assign labels that make sense in context. Master/slave makes perfect sense in technical context. Whitelist/blacklist makes perfect sense in technical context. Both are succinctly descriptive and are not labeling a person. And if anyone doesn't like that, well tough shit. Grow up and get over it. 

[tooki]

Genuinely interested in what terms we should use in systems to replace MASTER/SLAVE?

What terminology are the big boys (Keysight/Tek etc..) using? What accurately conveys the relationship between equipment or parts of a system?

What about appropriating BDSM terminology, surely that won’t offend anyone – DOM/SUB? Or perhaps just change to MASTER/SERVANT.

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

See, here's the real problem with technical jargon. In the current climate, no matter how 'sensitive' you are, you will never be able to assign labels to anything without offending somebody, so the sensible course of action is to ignore all that and assign labels that make sense in context. Master/slave makes perfect sense in technical context. Whitelist/blacklist makes perfect sense in technical context. Both are succinctly descriptive and are not labeling a person. And if anyone doesn't like that, well tough shit. Grow up and get over it. 

True to a point. You’re absolutely right that it’s impossible to avoid offending somebody. With that said, if you’re offending a substantial percentage of your population, amounting to millions of people, you’d be wise to find a different term. And it’s not up to the unoffended (or the offenders) to decide what is and isn’t offensive.

[0culus]

Genuinely interested in what terms we should use in systems to replace MASTER/SLAVE?

What terminology are the big boys (Keysight/Tek etc..) using? What accurately conveys the relationship between equipment or parts of a system?

What about appropriating BDSM terminology, surely that won’t offend anyone – DOM/SUB? Or perhaps just change to MASTER/SERVANT.

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

See, here's the real problem with technical jargon. In the current climate, no matter how 'sensitive' you are, you will never be able to assign labels to anything without offending somebody, so the sensible course of action is to ignore all that and assign labels that make sense in context. Master/slave makes perfect sense in technical context. Whitelist/blacklist makes perfect sense in technical context. Both are succinctly descriptive and are not labeling a person. And if anyone doesn't like that, well tough shit. Grow up and get over it. 

True to a point. You’re absolutely right that it’s impossible to avoid offending somebody. With that said, if you’re offending a substantial percentage of your population, amounting to millions of people, you’d be wise to find a different term. And it’s not up to the unoffended (or the offenders) to decide what is and isn’t offensive.

[Emphasis mine] I disagree, and here is why (again speaking in the context of technical jargon, I'm not speaking for people being shitheads on the street or internet here): I think most will agree that almost no one in computer engineering is thinking (and if you'll indulge the reductio ad absurdum) "I'm going to enslave some black people" when they talk about a master and slave AXI4 bus interfaces, for instance. It's complete bullshit that calling bus interfaces master and slave should be seen as offensive in this context.

To paraphrase someone up the thread, railing on things like this is merely distracting from solving real issues. Dare I say, it even further stokes divisions amongst people by causing stupid fights over semantics that aren't hurting anything except someone's feelings. 

[Nominal Animal]

I suspect these people refuse to think rationally, and instead emote; certain posts in this thread have enforced that suspicion even further.

I think that it's more probably the other way around. Acting instinctively and emotionally is the default human condition, it takes a 'pause for thought' and effort to be strictly rational about something.

That's the initial reaction, sure; that's always instinctive.  I tried to express exactly that difference: letting initial reactions govern ones actions, as opposed to stopping and examining the thing that puzzles/scares/vexes oneself.  Instead of trying to find and fix the root cause, only looking for immediate soothing, demanding the "offense" be removed.  Me fail words.

By the way, something in what you mentioned about being used to about skin colour, made me realize something about myself.  I have been wondering whether I'm deluding myself about not caring about skin color, or whether my self-assessment is accurate.

I grew up north of the arctic circle, amidst people like myself who tan really easily.  In late January - early February, people are pasty white, or more accurately pink.  Then, those spending any significant amount of time in the fells, on years with clear skies and snow pack, get tanned to darker than mediterranean. (Usually hands, neck, and face only; the tan lines can be utterly ridiculous.  Like someone who has been dunked in brown ink.)  During the summer, from roughly mid-May to late July, the sun doesn't set at all, and if you spend time outside, you also tend to get that sub-mediterranean tan.  A month in anyplace sunny, and my own skin color changes from pinky white to milk chocolate or café au lait.  A week, and the tan lines take several months to fade out.  If you were to ask what skin color my family members have, precisely, my first thought is "what time of year is it right now?".

That does not mean I am or others with a similar background are somehow free of racism: we're just as bigoted as everyone else, it just isn't coupled to skin color. Other things trigger it.  I myself seem to have an instinctive instant dislike if someone is extra loud (but not drunk/a kid/otherwise impaired), bothers others without remorse, hog shared resources, don't stay away from my personal space, and so on, notably more than my non-Finnish friends.

[Simon]

I have a couple of friends, they have a sign in their house or a replica of one. old school, it says "No blacks, no Irish, No dogs", she is Caribbean, he is Irish and they have a dog.

I saw on a facebook group a picture. The blurb mentioned the statue of king leopold or whoever it was that is the new historical hate target for slavery. The picture was of an african man sat on the floor staring at the severed hands and feet of hi daughter cut off because he was not producing enough. The picture is ancient and if the man or his daughter are alive I'd be surprised.

Sssssso, I replied that of course the moment the statue comes down the girl would get her hands and feet back. I was viciously attacked and called all sorts of slurs. Only one person was actually interested is talking to me about it. It's not just racists that are nasty sacks of shit, anyone is capable of being a sack of shit to someone when they get themselves emotively disturbed enough.

[tooki]

Genuinely interested in what terms we should use in systems to replace MASTER/SLAVE?

What terminology are the big boys (Keysight/Tek etc..) using? What accurately conveys the relationship between equipment or parts of a system?

What about appropriating BDSM terminology, surely that won’t offend anyone – DOM/SUB? Or perhaps just change to MASTER/SERVANT.

Could black and white lists be changed to RED and GREEN, or do they have other meanings in computing?

See, here's the real problem with technical jargon. In the current climate, no matter how 'sensitive' you are, you will never be able to assign labels to anything without offending somebody, so the sensible course of action is to ignore all that and assign labels that make sense in context. Master/slave makes perfect sense in technical context. Whitelist/blacklist makes perfect sense in technical context. Both are succinctly descriptive and are not labeling a person. And if anyone doesn't like that, well tough shit. Grow up and get over it. 

True to a point. You’re absolutely right that it’s impossible to avoid offending somebody. With that said, if you’re offending a substantial percentage of your population, amounting to millions of people, you’d be wise to find a different term. And it’s not up to the unoffended (or the offenders) to decide what is and isn’t offensive.

[Emphasis mine] I disagree, and here is why (again speaking in the context of technical jargon, I'm not speaking for people being shitheads on the street or internet here): I think most will agree that almost no one in computer engineering is thinking (and if you'll indulge the reductio ad absurdum) "I'm going to enslave some black people" when they talk about a master and slave AXI4 bus interfaces, for instance. It's complete bullshit that calling bus interfaces master and slave should be seen as offensive in this context.

To paraphrase someone up the thread, railing on things like this is merely distracting from solving real issues. Dare I say, it even further stokes divisions amongst people by causing stupid fights over semantics that aren't hurting anything except someone's feelings. 

The thing is, though, who are we to tell others which contexts it’s ok to get offended in? Slavery, and to a much larger extent, the systemic racism that outlived slavery by a long time, is a deep and comparatively recent wound in the black American psyche. I have no frame of reference for what that must feel like. As such, the wisest course of action is to listen to those affected.

Just as straight people have no right to tell me (a gay white man) which gay slurs I’m allowed to be offended or hurt by or not*, I have no right to tell blacks when they are and aren’t allowed to feel offended or hurt.

I’m making a point of adding “hurt”, because I also think that the word “offended” might not actually be the right one in these situations.

Ultimately, my take on the matter is that making the effort to help your fellow human being feel more respected is rarely a bad thing. It has little impact on us, and can make a big difference to people who are hurting. It’s not a huge thing, and yeah, it’s largely symbolic. But symbolic things still help. (They just don’t absolve us from having to make the big changes.)


*for example, even within the LGBT+ world, there is substantial disagreement on the use of the word “queer”. For lots of younger LGBT+ folks, it’s an all-inclusive umbrella term reclaimed from the bigots. But for a lot of older LGBT+ people, it’s nothing but a vile slur that they cannot divorce from their lived experience of having it hurled at them, often alongside other verbal or physical abuse.

[Kjelt]

The *list is easy
Goodlist
Badlist
And then you have Badhat hackers and Goodhathackers and in between the Gadhathackers. 

But the master slave is more difficult.
I even think boss - employee is going get downvoted in the near future.
Perhaps Coach-Player or Instructor-Trainee ,
The more I start to write the more ludicrous the whole thing becomes.

[tooki]

I saw on a facebook group a picture. The blurb mentioned the statue of king leopold or whoever it was that is the new historical hate target for slavery. The picture was of an african man sat on the floor staring at the severed hands and feet of hi daughter cut off because he was not producing enough. The picture is ancient and if the man or his daughter are alive I'd be surprised.

Sssssso, I replied that of course the moment the statue comes down the girl would get her hands and feet back. I was viciously attacked and called all sorts of slurs. Only one person was actually interested is talking to me about it. It's not just racists that are nasty sacks of shit, anyone is capable of being a sack of shit to someone when they get themselves emotively disturbed enough.

On what planet do you think that’s a respectful, productive way to engage in a rational debate?!? That’s an incredibly provocative, insensitive comment to make, and you deserved every damned bit of vitriol you reaped.

[Cerebus]

I grew up north of the arctic circle, amidst people like myself who tan really easily.  In late January - early February, people are pasty white, or more accurately pink.  Then, those spending any significant amount of time in the fells, on years with clear skies and snow pack, get tanned to darker than mediterranean. (Usually hands, neck, and face only; the tan lines can be utterly ridiculous.  Like someone who has been dunked in brown ink.)  During the summer, from roughly mid-May to late July, the sun doesn't set at all, and if you spend time outside, you also tend to get that sub-mediterranean tan.  A month in anyplace sunny, and my own skin color changes from pinky white to milk chocolate or café au lait.  A week, and the tan lines take several months to fade out.  If you were to ask what skin color my family members have, precisely, my first thought is "what time of year is it right now?".

I'm light skinned and very dark haired (before it went grey). As a kid I used to live 200-250 metres from the sea on the south coast of England. Consequently during the summer I lived outdoors and almost permanently in swimming trunks. There's a photo of me in my parent's garden with sun-bleached blonde hair and skin the colour of that of a Sicilian farmer. So yeah, at least for part of my life, the question "what does he look like" would be dependent on the time of year too.

[tooki]

I grew up north of the arctic circle, amidst people like myself who tan really easily.  In late January - early February, people are pasty white, or more accurately pink.  Then, those spending any significant amount of time in the fells, on years with clear skies and snow pack, get tanned to darker than mediterranean. (Usually hands, neck, and face only; the tan lines can be utterly ridiculous.  Like someone who has been dunked in brown ink.)  During the summer, from roughly mid-May to late July, the sun doesn't set at all, and if you spend time outside, you also tend to get that sub-mediterranean tan.  A month in anyplace sunny, and my own skin color changes from pinky white to milk chocolate or café au lait.  A week, and the tan lines take several months to fade out.  If you were to ask what skin color my family members have, precisely, my first thought is "what time of year is it right now?".

I'm light skinned and very dark haired (before it went grey). As a kid I used to live 200-250 metres from the sea on the south coast of England. Consequently during the summer I lived outdoors and almost permanently in swimming trunks. There's a photo of me in my parent's garden with sun-bleached blonde hair and skin the colour of that of a Sicilian farmer. So yeah, at least for part of my life, the question "what does he look like" would be dependent on the time of year too.

With that said, I very much doubt your facial features change with sun exposure. Skin color is simply the most visible feature of the black race. And as the very word “racism” implies, that’s what it’s really about. :/