'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[tooki]

Close:  the last slave  (Sylvester Magee) died almost 50 years ago in 1971.  His age at death is controversial, since slaves didn't have proper documentation.

I’m aware of him. But it’s highly unlikely he made it to the age of 130, which is what would be necessary for him to have made it to 1971.

[tooki]

Ultimately, though, the important lesson (and one I think a LOT of forum members here need to really take to heart) is that if a minority is telling us they feel oppressed, we need to listen, not dismiss it.

We may not agree on how to solve the problem, or whether we have to make a specific change. But it’s callous and arrogant to wholesale dismiss the grievances, as happens here on the forums every single time a progressive social issue is raised.

Pro tip: start with complaining that you feel oppressed by something other than the default name of git branches

The primary problem of American "progressive social issues" is that whatever reasonable problems might exist, you will never know because they are drowned in a flood of absolute clickbait idiocy.

I largely agree with that sentiment. Nonetheless, my point is that as people unaffected by the issue, it’s not our place to declare such things as irrelevant.

[tooki]

The primary problem of American "progressive social issues" is that whatever reasonable problems might exist, you will never know because they are drowned in a flood of absolute clickbait idiocy.

Yes, let us remember that the real immediate issue here is a long, clearly documented, history of white American police officers murdering black people with impunity (even being actively protected by the system with a twisted legal interpretation of 'qualified immunity').

First of all, total number black people killed by police is smaller than white people killed. As of why number of black people killed per population of the race is higher, it's not surprising considering that 12% of people (black population of US) manage to commit a half of all crimes. BTW a black guy has many times higher chance to be killed by other black guy rather than a white guy or a cop. 94% of black people get killed by black people. Why there are no protests about that? https://www.hks.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/centers/wiener/programs/pcj/files/PoliceandPublicDiscourseBlackonBlackViolence.pdf



(Attachment Link)

That’s all true. (Edit: apparently not. Exaggerated to make blacks look worse. See reply below.) But it’s also completely oblivious to the systemic racism that produced that situation. It’s absolutely no surprise that so many blacks turn to crime when so many factors have functionally barred them from legitimate income, as well as the social breakdown caused by the incarceration of black men for things that white men would rarely, if ever, be incarcerated for. (It’s well understood that a two parent household is less likely to have delinquent kids than a single parent one, all else held equal.)

[tooki]

I have no idea if those numbers are accurate and being associated with Trump doesn't exactly add credibility, however it would be more helpful to post some more accurate numbers instead of just saying those are wrong. Being an engineer I like numbers, data and facts. I'm not good at processing all of the emotional stuff that's flying around right now. That's not to say that ANY racially motivated police shootings are acceptable but there are certainly situations where deadly force is an appropriate response to a threat. Some people are quick to assume all of these are racially motivated which seems unlikely but I can only speculate.

There are tens of thousands of police officers in the US and they spend their shifts dealing with society's worst. While I recognize the need for accountability I'm also dismayed at the anti-police sentiment that has been spreading. There are examples of lawless society in various parts of the world where whoever happens to be strongest at the time is in charge and that is not a society I'd want to live in. I don't want us to throw the baby out with the bathwater and frankly I find it rather frightening that it is so politically dangerous these days to come off as the least bit supportive of law enforcement.

Law enforcement in USA is too rotten to be saved. It needs a total reboot.

Whether the police are racially motivated to be harsher to blacks is somewhat of an open question, though there’s plenty of evidence to support it. With that said, even if it’s not, blacks are getting the short end of the stick, statistically speaking.

Nobody is saying that there are zero situations where lethal force is justified. But the fact is, it’s not necessary in the vast majority of killings by police. Selling cigarettes, passing counterfeit money, and even assaulting a police officer are not capital offenses.

And let’s not forget that the police in USA are not obligated to put themselves in harm’s way to protect the public, thanks to a recent SCOTUS decision. IMHO, this abdication of duty means that they should also forfeit the special privileges police enjoy. (Like being able to use lethal force.)

But ultimately, this is all neither here nor there. I just think it’s rather presumptuous for us to declare blacks’ grievances as petty or irrelevant.

And let’s also not forget that, frankly, the vast majority of people, regardless of race, sex, etc. have ever encountered the electronics terms master, slave, male, female, etc. But the ones that do, and tell us that the words cause them distress, deserve to at least be listened to.

(What I don’t have any respect for are the SJWs arguing on behalf of people who didn’t ask them to do so. On that, I totally agree with the analysis of it being virtue signaling, etc.)

[GlennSprigg]

Now they're trying/have? banned the kids show, "Paw Patrol", as one of the characters is a
POLICE officer, in the group that tries to help people.  Some wankers quoting...
Every show that makes police seem like a positive force in society is
bad & should be cancelled starting with ones for children.   

Not to mention very old movies like "Gone With The Wind" being pulled off-line, because there
are so-called 'Racist' scenes, showing a Negro woman as a Maid in the mansion... 
For fucks sake!!!  The movie doesn't say "Hey, look at the stupid dumb inferior black person" !!
Those scenes are just a side-line in a complex story, and simply depicting how a lot of people used
to behave back then. Especially the so-called 'upper-class'. It does not represent support for abuse!! 

[tooki]

The primary problem of American "progressive social issues" is that whatever reasonable problems might exist, you will never know because they are drowned in a flood of absolute clickbait idiocy.

Yes, let us remember that the real immediate issue here is a long, clearly documented, history of white American police officers murdering black people with impunity (even being actively protected by the system with a twisted legal interpretation of 'qualified immunity').

First of all, total number black people killed by police is smaller than white people killed. As of why number of black people killed per population of the race is higher, it's not surprising considering that 12% of people (black population of US) manage to commit a half of all crimes. BTW a black guy has many times higher chance to be killed by other black guy rather than a white guy or a cop. 94% of black people get killed by black people. Why there are no protests about that?

P.S. There have been.

Also, the fact that blacks are convicted of half of all crimes doesn’t prove they actually committed half, since whites are often given a pass. Or they’re not even checked to begin with. For example, in places where it’s illegal, whites still use marijuana at far higher rates than blacks. Nonetheless, blacks are punished for possession far more often than whites. The conviction numbers are not in any way a valid proxy for actual crime rates.

[Nominal Animal]

I just think it’s rather presumptuous for us to declare blacks’ grievances as petty or irrelevant.

WE HAVEN'T!

At least in my opinion, and in my admittedly limited understanding (particularly because me fail English often; technical English okay, subtext often missed/unintended).

We are dismissing and ridiculing the suggested "fix" – banning terms, requiring people to admit guilt because they share skin color with some historical people who harmed others –, because it has never ever worked before, it is stupid to repeat past mistakes, and because it is more likely to make things worse than help anyone.

[tooki]

Now they're trying/have? banned the kids show, "Paw Patrol", as one of the characters is a
POLICE officer, in the group that tries to help people.  Some wankers quoting...
Every show that makes police seem like a positive force in society is
bad & should be cancelled starting with ones for children.   

Not to mention very old movies like "Gone With The Wind" being pulled off-line, because there
are so-called 'Racist' scenes, showing a Negro woman as a Maid in the mansion... 
For fucks sake!!!  The movie doesn't say "Hey, look at the stupid dumb inferior black person" !!
Those scenes are just a side-line in a complex story, and simply depicting how a lot of people used
to behave back then. Especially the so-called 'upper-class'. It does not represent support for abuse!! 

Frankly, I think it’s good to stop showing stuff that glorifies police. The police in USA do not deserve our trust, never mind reverence, right now. They need to work HARD to regain it.

As for the other stuff, it’s not as though it’s being banned or censured. Any private company can choose to not show or promote something. I think that right now, a lot of organizations are just pulling those things while they figure out the best way to frame them in the future.

[Nominal Animal]

As for the other stuff, it’s not as though it’s being banned or censured.

That's patently false.

If that were true, then any individual treating others differently because of their race would not be racist, either, because they're just an individual, not the society in general, and "not suitable as a proxy for the society in general".

[tooki]

I just think it’s rather presumptuous for us to declare blacks’ grievances as petty or irrelevant.

WE HAVEN'T!

At least in my opinion, and in my admittedly limited understanding (particularly because me fail English often; technical English okay, subtext often missed/unintended).

We are dismissing and ridiculing the suggested "fix" – banning terms, requiring people to admit guilt because they share skin color with some historical people who harmed others –, because it has never ever worked before, it is stupid to repeat past mistakes, and because it is more likely to make things worse than help anyone.

The tone here has been dismissive literally from the very first reply, where it was likened to “parody”.

And when people have commented about it being dismissive, that too gets dismissed. Classic “it doesn’t bother me, ergo it’s not a real problem” attitude.

[tooki]

As for the other stuff, it’s not as though it’s being banned or censured.

That's patently false.

If that were true, then any individual treating others differently because of their race would not be racist, eitherg (because they're just an individual, not the society in general, and "not suitable as a proxy for the society in general").  But doing so, demonstrably is.

Banning and censure mean when the government outlaws things because of their content. That hasn’t happened.

[Nominal Animal]

The tone here has been dismissive literally from the very first reply, where it was likened to “parody”.

The "it" referring to the desired correction to the underlying issue, for which it will do no good and probably even more harm.

Classic “it doesn’t bother me, ergo it’s not a real problem” attitude.

Do you not see how you are ascribing intent into others actions, when they are literally telling you otherwise?

You are literally telling people that they are not saying what they claim they are saying, because your emotions. This is irrational and utterly unproductive, even worse than ridicule: it only breeds antagonism, and pulls us further for any true conflict resolution.

[Nominal Animal]

Banning and censure mean when the government outlaws things because of their content. That hasn’t happened.

And racism is impossible against whites, because of its structural association.

Got it.

[tooki]

The tone here has been dismissive literally from the very first reply, where it was likened to “parody”.

The "it" referring to the desired correction to the underlying issue, for which it will do no good and probably even more harm.

One can disagree with a proposed correction without the acerbic disrespect shown in this thread.

Classic “it doesn’t bother me, ergo it’s not a real problem” attitude.

Do you not see how you are ascribing intent into others actions, when they are literally telling you otherwise?

The ensuing discussion only reinforces my impression that the people dismissing the proposed correction have little to no understanding of the history and deeper issues of the problem. Someone can tell you something, but it doesn’t mean they really understand it.

You are literally telling people that they are not saying what they claim they are saying, because your emotions. This is irrational and utterly unproductive, even worse than ridicule: it only breeds antagonism, and pulls us further for any true conflict resolution.

I’m not the one getting emotional here. You were the one yelling in all caps.

I’m saying that their claims are questionable because their actions betray a deep lack of understanding of the issue.

Banning and censure mean when the government outlaws things because of their content. That hasn’t happened.

And racism is impossible against whites, because of its structural association.

Got it.

I said no such thing, nor can it be derived from anything I said.

[VK3DRB]

JoeN, go get a life. It is master and slave.

What about male and female connectors? Don't you want LBGQI+ connectors? Actually it should be LGBQIEE+ where EE equals electronic engineers. Let's face it, many Electronics Engineers are socially isolated with no friends, no people skills and no sex life.

[GlennSprigg]

As for the other stuff, it’s not as though it’s being banned or censured.

That's patently false.

If that were true, then any individual treating others differently because of their race would not be racist, eitherg (because they're just an individual, not the society in general, and "not suitable as a proxy for the society in general").  But doing so, demonstrably is.

Banning and censure mean when the government outlaws things because of their content. That hasn’t happened.

That's true, but they are being 'pulled' by many companies, due to fear of reprisal.
Re: Police...
I UNDERSTAND how there is a 'culture' in the U.S. Police force that needs massive re-building. In my
comment about "Paw Patrol", I guess my mind is a bit more considerate towards Aussie Police, as
shootings in general here, let alone by the Police, is so small in numbers that you wouldn't believe.

[tooki]

JoeN, go get a life. It is master and slave.

What about male and female connectors? Don't you want LBGQI+ connectors? Actually it should be LGBQIEE+ where EE equals electronic engineers. Let's face it, many Electronics Engineers are socially isolated with no friends, no people skills and no sex life.

A perfect example of the “dismissive” “acerbic disrespect” I’m talking about.

[tooki]

As for the other stuff, it’s not as though it’s being banned or censured.

That's patently false.

If that were true, then any individual treating others differently because of their race would not be racist, eitherg (because they're just an individual, not the society in general, and "not suitable as a proxy for the society in general").  But doing so, demonstrably is.

Banning and censure mean when the government outlaws things because of their content. That hasn’t happened.

That's true, but they are being 'pulled' by many companies, due to fear of reprisal.
Re: Police...
I UNDERSTAND how there is a 'culture' in the U.S. Police force that needs massive re-building. In my
comment about "Paw Patrol", I guess my mind is a bit more considerate towards Aussie Police, as
shootings in general here, let alone by the Police, is so small in numbers that you wouldn't believe.

Reprisal by the court of public opinion, which is IMHO perfectly valid. There’s zero risk of them getting into legal hot water, as the US’s free speech protection is robust: the government can’t infringe it.

Yep, someone accustomed to a more reasonable police might not understand the depth of the problem in USA. 

[donotdespisethesnake]

That chart is a racist lie, the numbers are made up. It was debunked at the time. The "Crime Statistics Bureau" does not exist.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/nov/23/donald-trump/trump-tweet-blacks-white-homicide-victims/

[magic]

The "Crime Statistics Bureau" does not exist.

Reminds me of one holocaust denial propaganda piece I have seen which claimed official endorsement of some Polish institution. Never trust Americans and their infographics

[GlennSprigg]

As for the other stuff, it’s not as though it’s being banned or censured.

That's patently false.

If that were true, then any individual treating others differently because of their race would not be racist, eitherg (because they're just an individual, not the society in general, and "not suitable as a proxy for the society in general").  But doing so, demonstrably is.

Banning and censure mean when the government outlaws things because of their content. That hasn’t happened.

That's true, but they are being 'pulled' by many companies, due to fear of reprisal.
Re: Police...
I UNDERSTAND how there is a 'culture' in the U.S. Police force that needs massive re-building. In my
comment about "Paw Patrol", I guess my mind is a bit more considerate towards Aussie Police, as
shootings in general here, let alone by the Police, is so small in numbers that you wouldn't believe.

Reprisal by the court of public opinion, which is IMHO perfectly valid. There’s zero risk of them getting into legal hot water, as the US’s free speech protection is robust: the government can’t infringe it.

Yep, someone accustomed to a more reasonable police might not understand the depth of the problem in USA.

Yes, I'm not a U.S. resident, but the World sees all the news for years, especially as there is much more body-cam
footage nowdays, and personal filming, and countless vid-clips on the likes of Youtube that we all see. And it's
disgusting, though we are generally much more peaceful here in Australia.  American police stop...
Guns drawn. "Step out with your hands in the air. Walk backwards to me. Do not reach for anything. Now get
face down on the ground!!"  Other gun(s) on any passengers...
Same scenario in Aussie Land...
Police walk up to the driver. No guns drawn... "Bloody hell mate, what the hell were you doing back there!! That
was a bit dangerous. May I see your license please". 
They're not ALL perfect, but no-one (generally) gets 'accidentally' killed!! 

[tooki]

Yes, I'm not a U.S. resident, but the World sees all the news for years, especially as there is much more body-cam
footage nowdays, and personal filming, and countless vid-clips on the likes of Youtube that we all see. And it's
disgusting, though we are generally much more peaceful here in Australia.  American police stop...
Guns drawn. "Step out with your hands in the air. Walk backwards to me. Do not reach for anything. Now get
face down on the ground!!"  Other gun(s) on any passengers...
Same scenario in Aussie Land...
Police walk up to the driver. No guns drawn... "Bloody hell mate, what the hell were you doing back there!! That
was a bit dangerous. May I see your license please". 
They're not ALL perfect, but no-one (generally) gets 'accidentally' killed!! 

Yep. As a white American, I can say that like many (perhaps most?) white Americans, for a long time I dismissed those things as isolated incidents, and that the claims of widespread brutality were simply criminals trying to cover their asses. Until the true omnipresence of cameras (both bystander and cop bodycams) showed that they’re not: all these years, when blacks were complaining about police brutality, they were right.

The insidious thing about the omnipresent cameras is that we all thought “well, now the cops will at least start to behave, since they know we are watching.” Instead, what happened is that while some abuses did go down, cops quickly learned that they will be exonerated of malfeasance even if caught on camera. And this is why it’s come to a head, I think (with Coronavirus enabling lots of people to protest, since they’re out of work anyway). People want (absolutely rightfully, IMHO) for law enforcement to be loyal and accountable to the people, but police in USA have proven that they are loyal only to themselves, even in the worst of circumstances. It’s become a good old boys’ club that has contempt for the public (and even for much of the government), and that is very dangerous.

Going after minorities was just the easiest thing for them to do. I think the reason the protests now are so multiracial is because it’s becoming clear to everyone, including white people, that we are all potential victims of American police.

[VK3DRB]

This is getting out of hand and the thread should be locked as it has devolved into something that has nothing to do with electronics.

But my 2 cents worth...

Systemic racism is pervasive throughout the so-called justice system in the Disunited States of America. I have studied with a keen interest for the past 20 years exonerations there and I know the system is badly broken, and it treats the African-Americans particularly poorly. The USA is not a free country and probably never has been. Using the word Black is a regression back to the 1970's and earlier and is racist. Keep going back and you risk reverting back to the good 'ol white Confederate white boys lynching another George Stinney in the backward state of South Carolina.

It is about time the colour of one's skin should have nothing to do with the person. It was when English barbarians started up their slave trade that skin colour was ever mentioned in literature. In fact the ancient Egyptians never mentioned it in their hieroglyphics and neither did the Greeks and Romans. The Bible never mentions skin colour in any of its 66 books. Are we civilised enough to look beyond skin colour?

The only colour we should be interested in is the resistor colour code when working on vintage electronics. Today, few of us professionals use the old axial resistors - we don't need to look at colour.

[nuclearcat]

Yes, I'm not a U.S. resident, but the World sees all the news for years, especially as there is much more body-cam
footage nowdays, and personal filming, and countless vid-clips on the likes of Youtube that we all see. And it's
disgusting, though we are generally much more peaceful here in Australia.  American police stop...
Guns drawn. "Step out with your hands in the air. Walk backwards to me. Do not reach for anything. Now get
face down on the ground!!"  Other gun(s) on any passengers...
Same scenario in Aussie Land...
Police walk up to the driver. No guns drawn... "Bloody hell mate, what the hell were you doing back there!! That
was a bit dangerous. May I see your license please". 
They're not ALL perfect, but no-one (generally) gets 'accidentally' killed!! 

Major difference is - in US guns are legal and often people carry them, so police expect any civilian might draw the gun and shoot, using legal gun this civilian own, just because he have mental issues today.
And i think this is major reason of police violence. Easy to die, but easy to pull the trigger by mistake as well, as stakes are high from point zero.

[madires]

BTW, has anyone asked engineers if they would feel discriminated when not allowed to use long established technical terms like SPI master, SPI slave, email sender blacklist or email sender whitelist anymore? One person's freedom ends where another's begins.