Author Topic: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts  (Read 142633 times)

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Offline bd139

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #200 on: June 13, 2020, 04:17:43 pm »
It’s not true. My eldest just did GCSE history and they had a whole 4 week section on it.

I think the issue is that the folk complaining were smoking weed in the bogs instead of being in the lessons.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #201 on: June 13, 2020, 04:38:27 pm »
The black lives matter campaigners are upset about how African history and the atrocities committed by the British Empire are not taught in UK schools, which I agree with: African history and the gross human rights violations of the colonial era do need to be taught in school.

Bloody hell, British education has gone downhill if that's true. We were certainly taught about the history of slavery in my school, and that's in a highly conservative boy's grammar school in the 70s (which had precisely *one* non-white pupil out of 600 odd).
It’s not true. My eldest just did GCSE history and they had a whole 4 week section on it.

I think the issue is that the folk complaining were smoking weed in the bogs instead of being in the lessons.
I went to school in the 90s, so roughly halfway between those to generations and I didn't learn much about slavery, other then the Romans. I dropped history before GCSE though and did Geography, as detested it less.

I do find history interesting, but hated learning it at school. I found the lessons boring and disliked having to write verbose essays, which were a waste of time.

I've learned a lot more about history, since leaving school. Lots of it is about human nature, which is why it repeats.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #202 on: June 13, 2020, 04:48:41 pm »
Unfortunately, a substantial and powerful segment of society view high profits as their entitlement above all else, and therefore feel empowered to take it upon themselves to basically bring near slavery -  well actually a close facsimile of it, back.

And they are doing so, largely under the radar. One of the ways its being accomplished is dividing people so they cannot have important discussions we need to be having about the nature of work, the reason why businesses exist and what is and is not a reasonable level of profit. The result will be an outcome literally none of us want or would have voted for. A prevention of the bright future that a few years ago seemed assuredly ahead of us an in view.

So I urge people to not fall for the framings that attempt to put forward this trivalization of what is a real, serious problem, if some people have issues they feel they need to see addressed, its not going to kill us to try to figure out how those issues can be accomodated. If we dont, we're falling into a very cynical trap - the result of which will be horrible for all of us.

(here is a link to one big cause of many problems, nicely formatted for printing, worth downloading)

(Hierarchies and high functioning professionalism don't mix well, IMHO. Professionals want to do quality work, and that might conflict with pressure to lower costs to the bone, behavior consistent with a push to extract the most possible profit out of any situation)

The idea that work might occur for other reasons than just money, or that workers might be something more than interchangeable commodities to be traded internationally, and nothing more, - as well as all laws that might support job security and improving standards threatens some people, science threatens some people, and its in all of our best interests to try to rise above bigotry, blind profiteering, and "thought terminating cliches" so we can get on with doing good work, if we dont we may find that there is no longer professionalism at all, for anybody, just a race to the bottom. 

We're being browbeaten into not seeing the big picture, that we can choose the future we want, do we want a rational future where society brings out the best in everybody or a struggle against one another for the means of existence that leaves everybody so exhausted we cant climb out of the hole it digs us into. Nobody wins that struggle.

The one thing I don't understand is how the terms "master" and "slave" can ever be deemed to be racist. Anyone who believes they are, is ignorant about history, especially African history.

The black lives matter campaigners are upset about how African history and the atrocities committed by the British Empire are not taught in UK schools, which I agree with: African history and the gross human rights violations of the colonial era do need to be taught in school. If you actually take just a few minutes to research the real history of Africa, you'll find is that slavery was endemic to the continent, long before the white European invasion. Black people enslaved other black people, the same as white Europeans enslaved other white people, way before the colonial era. Africa was not some peaceful, eutopian, harmonious, continent, before white people took over and ruined it. There were wars, atrocities and empires for thousands of years before European conquest.

I'm not defending my ancestors, who profited from slavery and should have known better, but no one can take the moral high-ground regarding slavery. The only reason why Europeans managed to dominate and pillage Africa was because they were technically advanced at the time. We saw a similar thing in Africa: look at how successful the technically advanced Egyptians were.

We need to eliminate racism, xenophobia and bigotry from society, but changing technical terminology will not make any difference and will only promote current misunderstandings of history and slavery.


Its not bigotry to demand that working people such as engineers earn a decent wage, nomatter where they are from. Even if their own employers want to pay them less, it shouldnt be allowed. Not allowing it is not discrimination. (thats what some developing countries are claiming, a right to basically enslave their own workers at the lowest wages imaginable should be their entitlement under trade instruments)  the WTO wants to take over this kind of work, that would be a disaster and likely would set us back a hundred years or more as far as racism, as it will result in large scale job losses to favor the new dirt cheap firms and their hugely underpaid work forces. tahst what the real goal of dividing everybody is, quietly creating conditions so that the middle class can literally be eliminated by very low wage migrant, hi skilled labor, also capturing immigration. To my way of thinking, actual immigration is good, but what we'll get instead is a new form of slavery, where peoples presence in a couuntry is tied to a job and if they lose it they have to pack up and leave, keeping them in limbo, and most significantly, keeping them making very low wages for many many yesrs, even decades or more) . Thats why people are trying to divide everybody everywhere. they have a financial motive. Anyway, thats why I plea, lets rise above our predjuidices so we can have intelligent discussions, otherwise, we're going to lose our middlc class jobs, everywhere..
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 04:57:49 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #203 on: June 13, 2020, 04:57:20 pm »
I went to school in the 90s, so roughly halfway between those to generations and I didn't learn much about slavery, other then the Romans. I dropped history before GCSE though and did Geography, as detested it less.

That was similar to me in the 80s. History was mandatory then. As was Geography. I remember buying cigarettes (not for myself - I just looked the oldest) in St Albans on our Roman themed school trip and that's about it  :-DD
 

Offline coppice

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #204 on: June 13, 2020, 05:06:11 pm »
The black lives matter campaigners are upset about how African history and the atrocities committed by the British Empire are not taught in UK schools, which I agree with: African history and the gross human rights violations of the colonial era do need to be taught in school.

Bloody hell, British education has gone downhill if that's true. We were certainly taught about the history of slavery in my school, and that's in a highly conservative boy's grammar school in the 70s (which had precisely *one* non-white pupil out of 600 odd).
I only did history up to the 3rd form in the 1960s, and we didn't even learn there was a 19th or 20th century.  ;)
 
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Offline vodka

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #205 on: June 13, 2020, 06:13:10 pm »
Slavery Made In Africa

One pearl:

Quote
" When the British abolished the slave trading in 1807 , the king from Bonny, today Nigeria, he argued that the trade  should must continue and oracules from his people
affirmed that the slave trading was an activity ordered by god. The Ghezo king from Dahomey said that he was willing to make anything for the British requested him ,except give up to sell slaves"

 Carlos Arturo Calderón Muñoz

Complete article

http://www.alertadigital.com/2020/06/08/cartas-desde-colombia-esclavitud-made-in-africa/

 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #206 on: June 13, 2020, 06:22:33 pm »
The black lives matter campaigners are upset about how African history and the atrocities committed by the British Empire are not taught in UK schools, which I agree with: African history and the gross human rights violations of the colonial era do need to be taught in school.

Bloody hell, British education has gone downhill if that's true. We were certainly taught about the history of slavery in my school, and that's in a highly conservative boy's grammar school in the 70s (which had precisely *one* non-white pupil out of 600 odd).
I only did history up to the 3rd form in the 1960s, and we didn't even learn there was a 19th or 20th century.  ;)

If your schoolmasters were anything like mine the suspicion was that most of them came from, and still were in, the 18th Century - apart from the physics master with the alembic muttering to himself in Enochian, him we placed in the 17th century at the very latest.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Online magic

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #207 on: June 13, 2020, 06:24:08 pm »
The one thing I don't understand is how the terms "master" and "slave" can ever be deemed to be racist. Anyone who believes they are, is ignorant about history, especially African history.
This drama has been going on for several years; the typical argument goes along the lines that simply mentioning anything remotely connected to slavery "retraumatizes" the descendants of its victims, distracts them from the work, whatever.

It may possibly be derived from authentic experiences of some oversensitive borderline mental cases. I never followed the "people of color" scene much, but when you dig into similar posting from feminists you will invariably find broken paranoid women scared of every stupid thing some man does that she doesn't understand. In America it isn't popular to tell such people to retract to some calm place and sort their shit. On the contrary, their "speaking up" is revered by the mob as act of bravery for social justice and progress.

Those theories also explain the racial breakdown of American software sector without resorting to the unpopular "we are still racist" or "average IQ" arguments, which is a value of its own for many. You can rest assured that whenever somebody mentions "slavery" or "colonialism", within a few paragraphs back or forth "underrepresentation" will be found. The seemingly popular "it's just status quo which will resolve itself thanks to rights and liberty" theory also is becoming unpopular because Americans have been hearing it for 50 years so something new is desperately needed.

Go lurk news.ycombinator.com if you are in mood for some :popcorn: I suppose they still are having threads about it every other week.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #208 on: June 13, 2020, 06:29:30 pm »
Ah fuck HN. Worst technical echo chamber in the universe.

Programming in Rust cures cancer. Preventing gentrification in SF using ML. Someone shitting on database fad of the hour. Something something China. I switched from a desktop to an open source iPad clone and designed an orbital space programme. Procedurally generated monads in Haskell rewritten in Lisp on top of a Brainfuck VM. GitHub offends man with three arms. Monthly dose of Amiga Denial Syndrome. HN hiring Terraform and COBOL expert for global hegemony.
 

Offline 0culus

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #209 on: June 13, 2020, 06:31:28 pm »
On the bright side, discussions on HN do stay civil compared to most of the rest of the internet.  :-DD It is a massive echo chamber though. Anything that goes against the collective gets downvoted to oblivion.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #210 on: June 13, 2020, 06:32:41 pm »
The irony is that’s true. Also while simultaneously everyone crowing “this isn’t reddit”. Which it basically is.

If you want a laugh try criticising the “new Microsoft” on there.
 
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Offline 0culus

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #211 on: June 13, 2020, 06:35:34 pm »
...as to the topic of this thread, here's a novel idea: grow up and stop looking for reasons to be offended. I swear people that complain the loudest about this stuff must have literally nothing better to do with their life. If they actually directed that same energy to being productive members of society, who knows what they could accomplish?  :popcorn:
 

Offline 0culus

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #212 on: June 13, 2020, 06:38:04 pm »
The irony is that’s true. Also while simultaneously everyone crowing “this isn’t reddit”. Which it basically is.

If you want a laugh try criticising the “new Microsoft” on there.

Wait, you mean the new Microsoft isn't our friend and savior???  :-DD
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #213 on: June 13, 2020, 06:43:12 pm »
I only did history up to the 3rd form in the 1960s, and we didn't even learn there was a 19th or 20th century.  ;)
If your schoolmasters were anything like mine the suspicion was that most of them came from, and still were in, the 18th Century - apart from the physics master with the alembic muttering to himself in Enochian, him we placed in the 17th century at the very latest.
I just didn't take history up to O-level. The 4th and 5th years who took O-level did 20th century history, but I have no idea what the content of their course was.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #214 on: June 13, 2020, 06:48:21 pm »
The irony is that’s true. Also while simultaneously everyone crowing “this isn’t reddit”. Which it basically is.

If you want a laugh try criticising the “new Microsoft” on there.

Wait, you mean the new Microsoft isn't our friend and savior???  :-DD

Quote from: The Who
Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss


Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online magic

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #215 on: June 13, 2020, 06:51:57 pm »
fuck HN
That was fast :-DD :clap:
But you misspelled "H"N :P

To be fair, there are some intelligent people there, or used to be before I quit, but SNR is making it tiresome.

If you want a laugh try criticising the “new Microsoft” on there.
Wait, you mean the new Microsoft isn't our friend and savior???  :-DD
They worship Microsoft now? Why? :wtf:
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #216 on: June 13, 2020, 06:57:30 pm »
Because they’re all faddists.

Occasionally I cruise in when I’m bored to drop a troll in.
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #217 on: June 13, 2020, 07:02:47 pm »
Because they’re all faddists.

Occasionally I cruise in when I’m bored to drop a troll in.
The entire software industry is faddish, and has been since the early days. Michael Jackson, Edward Yourdon and others didn't make a fortune from seminars without a serious cult following. They certainly didn't teach anything new or profound for anyone with half a brain and a little experience.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #218 on: June 13, 2020, 07:28:02 pm »
The one thing I don't understand is how the terms "master" and "slave" can ever be deemed to be racist. Anyone who believes they are, is ignorant about history, especially African history.
This drama has been going on for several years; the typical argument goes along the lines that simply mentioning anything remotely connected to slavery "retraumatizes" the descendants of its victims, distracts them from the work, whatever.

It may possibly be derived from authentic experiences of some oversensitive borderline mental cases. I never followed the "people of color" scene much, but when you dig into similar posting from feminists you will invariably find broken paranoid women scared of every stupid thing some man does that she doesn't understand. In America it isn't popular to tell such people to retract to some calm place and sort their shit. On the contrary, their "speaking up" is revered by the mob as act of bravery for social justice and progress.

Those theories also explain the racial breakdown of American software sector without resorting to the unpopular "we are still racist" or "average IQ" arguments, which is a value of its own for many. You can rest assured that whenever somebody mentions "slavery" or "colonialism", within a few paragraphs back or forth "underrepresentation" will be found. The seemingly popular "it's just status quo which will resolve itself thanks to rights and liberty" theory also is becoming unpopular because Americans have been hearing it for 50 years so something new is desperately needed.

Go lurk news.ycombinator.com if you are in mood for some :popcorn: I suppose they still are having threads about it every other week.
Racism and sexism are actually quite complex topics. Both do exist in society, but often someone's actions/words are deemed to be sexist or racist, when none was intended. In some cases, it's perfectly understandable why someone would believe another's actions are motivated by bigotry, when in reality none was intended.

Here's an example:

I was waking along the street a few weeks ago and saw a group of black people walking towards me. I looked at them, then across the street and crossed the road, to avoid them. It would be perfectly understandable if they thought I was being raciest, especially as I'm white and was half-expecting a negative comment. In reality I was practising social distancing. I looked them to see if there was enough room to pass on the pavement, but it was too tight, then I looked at the road to check it was safe to cross and it was so I did. I would have done the same, had they been white, but admit I make more effort to socially distance from people of colour, because they're statistically more at risk at developing complications from COVID-19 and there's the small possibility I'm an a/presymptomatic carrier.
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #219 on: June 13, 2020, 07:34:49 pm »
Quote
The only reason why Europeans managed to dominate and pillage Africa was because they were technically advanced at the time.

Nope. Not the only reason.
Missionaries.

Missionaries, disconnected and divided the locals from their own people and traditions and turned them into more pliable and obedient subjects.

They may have believed they were saving souls, but in reality they were being used knowingly or not, to pave the way for what was about to happen.

And what a fine mess that was!


   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #220 on: June 13, 2020, 08:50:35 pm »
Programming in Rust cures cancer.

Built on V8, Rust, and Tokio.: https://deno.land/manual  :-+
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #221 on: June 14, 2020, 12:02:47 am »
Quote
(here is a link to one big cause of many problems, nicely formatted for printing, worth downloading)

Whatever the worth of the rest of your post, it was spoiled by my feeling the fool for following that link. Why couldn't you just say "trade agreement" somewhere so we would know it's a tongue-in-cheek thing? Maybe the rest of the post is the same distraction humour, hmmm?

Edit: Couldn't think of the word earlier. 'Rick-roll' - that's what it came across as.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 12:08:45 am by dunkemhigh »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #222 on: June 14, 2020, 12:47:18 am »
Every techie knows what this means - you don't even have to read the article (overly long, you know the examples better than the author does), but here it is if you want:  https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/

I've been against this in the past because I thought it would create confusion.  Now that I think about it, if we can all (100% of the industry - think IEEE directive) agree on the copypasta, this might be a good and feasible thing.

I propose changing MASTER to PRIMARY and SLAVE to SECONDARY.  Since MASTER and SLAVE are words that are not otherwise often used in technology, probably updating documents is as simple as doing a replace on these two words, with a quick check.  Induhvidual engineers will probably not adopt the new words orally until there is a new generation, but who cares.  Update the documentation, wait for the results, less irritated people.

What do you think?
Semantically incorrect. The word master implies a controlling entity and slave implies an obeying entity. Ofcourse you could go for 'controller' and 'obeyer' but that is still semantically the same as master and slave. And why hide history? Those unfamiliar with history are bound to repeat it.

BTW: Perhaps we should stop buying stuff from countries which have a repressive regime if we want to make the world a better place.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #223 on: June 14, 2020, 12:57:46 am »
That actually is the real, easy to verify, reason why education has been privatized and IT has been globalized- bringing us back towards a kind of indentured servitude "master and servant" workplace-  as they say in that song, "its a lot like life"
Edit: Couldn't think of the word earlier. 'Rick-roll' - that's what it came across as.

That link was to a taiwanese govt web site.


Semantically incorrect. The word master implies a controlling entity and slave implies an obeying entity. Ofcourse you could go for 'controller' and 'obeyer' but that is still semantically the same as master and slave. And why hide history? Those unfamiliar with history are bound to repeat it.

BTW: Perhaps we should stop buying stuff from countries which have a repressive regime if we want to make the world a better place.


We should and can, but when government procurement is involved I think they have actually made it FTA illegal to let most human rights considerations impact purchase decisions in any way. Trade rules are supposed to be human rights agnostic. However, I do think its okay to refuse to buy the products of prison labor. Some countries (obviously not the ones that use it) do have prohibitions like that and I think not buying the products of overt slavery is for the time being okay.

 But it likely is coming back, I am not kidding.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 01:06:43 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #224 on: June 14, 2020, 02:29:08 am »
Quote
Ofcourse you could go for 'controller' and 'obeyer'

The thing about 'master/slave', which most of the alternatives seem to fall down on, is that they roll off the tongue easily. Two syllables is the max we want, purely because any longer than that will want to get shortened in usage. They are also very different in the way they are said and written - you can easily tell they are different just from looking at someone saying them even if you don't (consciously) lipread. So, for instance, a previous suggestion of 'controller/controlled' would be real bad on just these counts, and since they differ only in one letter - and the last one at that - I can't imagine the pair being a suitable alternative. Most alternatives suffer similar problems.
 


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