'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[Nominal Animal]

I really don't understand the people who have to let their extremist (to me) views hang out, turning a technical forum into a toxic environment.  I would love to see the hostility dial turned down from 11 to maybe 5.

Sure, I'd like that too.

Thing is, how do you make that happen?

Let's say you put up a banner in the 'Post reply' window that says 'Don't be a dick, think twice what you write.'
I'm willing to bet that that sort of thing would actually make the responses only more hostile, because accusing the innocent majority just gets them riled up and angry.

See?  Good intentions are good, but we don't actually have any way to make wishes come true.  The tools we do have to implement things have pretty serious repercussions, so talking about what we wish for isn't actually useful.

In various Western countries, things are now afoot that force people to behave or interact in certain ways by law – not that many countries have free speech at all! –, and that has thus far always backfired spectacularly, sooner or later.

[engrguy42]

I suppose one way to look at this is to be happy that our lives must be doing so well that the biggest worries we have are little more than hurt feelings and being offended. I imagine our grandparents and great-grandparents who lived thru stuff like WWII have a slightly different perspective. When your worries are more towards "will a bomb drop on my city tomorrow?", stuff like being offended by things people say becomes a bit less relevant.

Which is one of the optimistic hopes I have for this pandemic thing. Maybe, in a year or two, when this dies down, people will start to put life in perspective. Maybe they'll realize that staying alive is tops on their list of things-to-do, rather than silly things like worrying about being offended by others' words.

I recall the Brits had a great perspective: "A stiff upper lip". Learn to deal with life as it comes. Grow stronger.

And another great saying from the past: "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". Hopefully that's one of the outcomes of this pandemic thing. People grow up and act like adults. They grow stronger and put life in perspective.

Or not...

[pepelevamp]

Just because some feel uncomfortable in a community does not mean the community needs to change.
..............
 Learning to co-operate, or leaving for somewhere else, perhaps even building a competing community, is always a better choice, because then there is the possibility of creating something positive – and not just changing something existing, and hoping the change is positive.

This post is actually super thoughtful. There's no way on earth a person is able to output this content without an enormous amount of thought & computation & self-reflection.

You have gone a long way to quantify the hardship of trying to comply with seemingly popular requests to adjust your language. Aside from the rules not being consistent, you have pointed out that indeed you may never have even the slightest intent of malice - yet you are being made to correct your actions.

When you go out into society & tell people to fix what they're saying with the objective of removing malice that was never there - you will not remove malice.

You also pointed out that its easy to try & get communities to change versus the other options. I said myself that its easy to pick fights with people who are 90% on your side. The real nazis are elsewhere.

There are true bad actors out there who's actual intent is to create disharmony, chaos and in-fighting in any community that opposes them. Thats their intent. Unfortunately with it being super easy to critique the language of others like ya got a mad case of OCD - it just makes it all too easy for true bad actors who wish to instill chaos to actually succeed. Doing the enemy's work for them.

[tggzzz]

I suppose one way to look at this is to be happy that our lives must be doing so well that the biggest worries we have are little more than hurt feelings and being offended. I imagine our grandparents and great-grandparents who lived thru stuff like WWII have a slightly different perspective. When your worries are more towards "will a bomb drop on my city tomorrow?", stuff like being offended by things people say becomes a bit less relevant.

Which is one of the optimistic hopes I have for this pandemic thing. Maybe, in a year or two, when this dies down, people will start to put life in perspective. Maybe they'll realize that staying alive is tops on their list of things-to-do, rather than silly things like worrying about being offended by others' words.

I recall the Brits had a great perspective: "A stiff upper lip". Learn to deal with life as it comes. Grow stronger.

And another great saying from the past: "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". Hopefully that's one of the outcomes of this pandemic thing. People grow up and act like adults. They grow stronger and put life in perspective.

Or not...

Pretty much, yes.

My daughter has recently been bemoaning that she slips between all the UK government covid aid packages. She's pivoted herself remarkably well, but I still find it useful to point out that I will regard the next year as a success if we are both alive at the end of it. A low hurdle, perhaps - but I deliberately didn't include her 99yo grandmother in it

[vodka]

Wellcome to Globalist Agenda

Political and social analysis of  distopical movie "Demolition Man"

https://youtu.be/DrUNIX2Iv04

[Cerebus]

Good intentions are good, but we don't actually have any way to make wishes come true.

Being a non-native speaker you may not be familiar with the common English dictum: "The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions".

[Simon]

Does anyone else see the insanity in people taking it upon themselves to decide what OTHERS might find offensive?

I've actually delved into the "General Chat" section today to try and understand why other people have been saying that they don't feel comfortable in the EEVblog community and perceive the community as e.g. hostile to women and minorities. I'm taking them at their word that they are in fact offended by the way people talk here and I'm trying to understand their perspective.

I suggest you change your pot/weed supplier!

[Marco]

Why is master/servant never even considered as an alternative? Minimum change of meaning, minimally invasive. This works in all contexts instead of just a subset like most the other alternatives ... so why not?

[tggzzz]

I've actually delved into the "General Chat" section today to try and understand why other people have been saying that they don't feel comfortable in the EEVblog community and perceive the community as e.g. hostile to women and minorities. I'm taking them at their word that they are in fact offended by the way people talk here and I'm trying to understand their perspective.

...
i am super conscious though about the tendancy for those who mean well to self-cull their own communities until there is nobody left.
...
its better to have an army of people who-dont agree-on-everything but have their heart in the right place, rather than try to sanitize your soldiers into nothing.

On re-reading your post, I think it is worth highlighting those two statements.

In general self-censorship is more destructive than externally imposed censorship, because there is nobody complaining about the censorship.

[bd139]

Oh it's gone full retard now: https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1271253144442253312

Master branch on github may be renamed main etc etc.

There are not even slaves in git. 

This is just erasing language for the sake of it. We're going to end up with a shallow dialect of newspeak and fuck all else by the end of this.

[engrguy42]

Why is master/servant never even considered as an alternative? Minimum change of meaning, minimally invasive. This works in all contexts instead of just a subset like most the other alternatives ... so why not?

How can you decide what others might find offensive? How are you qualified to make that decision?

And at the end of the day, I guarantee that if you survey the entire population of this planet (7.8 billion people) you WILL find people who will be offended by that. Or anything else for that matter.

Which is why this is an insane discussion. 

[coppice]

Why is master/servant never even considered as an alternative? Minimum change of meaning, minimally invasive. This works in all contexts instead of just a subset like most the other alternatives ... so why not?

Why do you hate maids so much that their feelings mean nothing to you?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Oh it's gone full retard now: https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1271253144442253312

Master branch on github may be renamed main etc etc.

Let's call it black/white. SORTED!

[Cerebus]

The lads at my local garage, and bloody good they are too, are not white people, most definitely not white people. If one was to tell them that in discussing my clutch or brake systems they were being racist by referring to the "master cylinder" or "slave cylinder" they would laugh at you, and probably use much stranger language than I usually would in this present context: "You're 'aving a f****** laugh aren't you? What kind of **** do you take me for?".

For the record, anytime I have had a conversation (and I have had them) with someone who is non-white about this use of language they have all found no problem with master/slave devices, similarly discussions with non-male persons about male/female connectors have failed to register any genuine offence. Further, for the record, I have had the latter conversations with people across the whole gender spectrum, from post-op transexuals to every other flavour of (non)gendered-ness you care to name. Yeah, my friends are an odd, highly assorted bunch; I suspect that's a necessary precondition for wanting to be friends with me.

If "treating people as things is the true root of all evil" what is "treating things as if they were people"? Which is what one is surely doing if one infers that language referring to a master/slave relationship between mechanical or electronic components is some form of racist speech. To do so is to insult the people who use this professional terminology with no trace or hint of racism associated with it, it is to imply some character defect in them where there is none. To paraphrase Dr. King, I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his character, not by the professional terminology he uses.

It is no surprise that people who are told they are racist when there's no substance to that claim are defensive about it. It implies the same kind of smug moral superiority on behalf of the messenger that, in Britain at least, we're used to associating with people like Mary Whitehouse, Malcolm Muggeridge and other self-appointed moral guardians who berate mere mortals for moral failings that they perceive to exist in the targets of their whitterings, but such moral failings do not in fact exist.

Always, without exception, this kind of rubbish is propagated people who have an obsession with race/sexual politics, not by ordinary folks. Ironically I most often encounter this kind of proselytisation in single white males, invariably against a background of them trying to sound "right on" enough to get into some lasses' knickers. Go figure...

So, to anyone who wishes to berate me for hurting the feelings of a flip-flop or a hydraulic cylinder I say: "You're 'aving a f****** laugh aren't you? What kind of **** do you take me for?".

[Cerebus]

Why is master/servant never even considered as an alternative? Minimum change of meaning, minimally invasive. This works in all contexts instead of just a subset like most the other alternatives ... so why not?

Why do you hate maids so much that their feelings mean nothing to you?

You little sexist so-and-so, assuming that all servants must be female.   

[Simon]

guess what the word vagina originated from.

[DrG]

guess what the word vagina originated from.

It is from the latin for men to serve - servo non choico

No, I don't know, it just says late 17th century: from Latin, literally ‘sheath, scabbard’.

Also, do we have to rename Master Debater to Wanker Enthusiast in order to combat racism?

[pepelevamp]

Always, without exception, this kind of rubbish is propagated people who have an obsession with race/sexual politics, not by ordinary folks. Ironically I most often encounter this kind of proselytisation in single white males, invariably against a background of them trying to sound "right on" enough to get into some lasses' knickers. Go figure...

this is the classic. normally i'd totally agree with you except i have found a new variant which I think is starting to take over. the new variant is dudes simply doing this as a general broadcast without a specific skirt targetted. im yet to see if it actually works.

you're right though - dudes are at least 51% motivated by skirt at any given time & there's just degrees of dishonesty about it. ive realized that if you want to do something creative, or have a good day, and want your head in a good space - do not go on twitter beforehand. it just generally frames your mind/perspective and sort of makes you look at things from a bad place.

let me stand on the workbench & say this out loud:

if you're not being an asshole on purpose, and your heart is in the right place, and you would stand up for somebody getting a shit deal, then please do not feel bad. do not let someone trick you into thinking you've done something wrong, or you arent doing enough - simply because you are not yet literate in a new term or a new attitude.

twitter is full of people trying to portray themselves as being heroic, or doing the latest righteous thing. they very often jump the gun into thinking their gimmick is the solution to a problem. you may agree there's a problem - but their attempt at a solution can be wrong. don't feel bad if you disagree, and dont let them trap you into thinking you advocate the wrongs they are against.

we can disagree on implications, implementations, and the details. we don't have to agree. but ya know where it really matters - we do agree already. dont let people trick us into arguing over elements in a framework they defined. we were fine before they arrived, and we can be fine afterwards.

[DrG]

It's a little embarrassing to admit this but I am disappointment in myself. The OP's proposition is so profoundly ludicrous I couldn't help but make fun of it. But, I read every post in what is now some 7 pages of responses. The OP is long gone after the seeding and I can't even blame him because I chose to respond (four times now). There are at least a dozen or more posts in the thread that are absolutely spot on and accurately reflect my view about how positively idiotic the proposition that changing I2C terms would have an effect on racism.

How could anyone think that and why am I so amazed that someone could think that? It is as though I need the comfort of the illusion of some kind of common denominator community standard of critical thinking.

I need to do better.

[coppice]

Why is master/servant never even considered as an alternative? Minimum change of meaning, minimally invasive. This works in all contexts instead of just a subset like most the other alternatives ... so why not?

Why do you hate maids so much that their feelings mean nothing to you?

You little sexist so-and-so, assuming that all servants must be female.   

I've met hundreds of female domestic servants, but I can't remember ever meeting a male one. So, while male ones may exist, they are outside my lived experience.

[Simon]

guess what the word vagina originated from.

It is from the latin for men to serve - servo non choico

No, I don't know, it just says late 17th century: from Latin, literally ‘sheath, scabbard’.

Also, do we have to rename Master Debater to Wanker Enthusiast in order to combat racism?

Yes quite scabbard the thing a Roman put his sword into, do we now have to change the word vagina because it's male oriented, sexist, puts the man in control? or are we safe in that social justice warriors don't know Latin and have never thought to go through the anatomy book for reasons to take offence.

[tggzzz]

Oh it's gone full retard now: https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1271253144442253312

Master branch on github may be renamed main etc etc.

There are not even slaves in git. 

This is just erasing language for the sake of it. We're going to end up with a shallow dialect of newspeak and fuck all else by the end of this.

It is whitewashing language. (And how long before some ignoramus objects to that term!)

There's also ZFS, as per https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/openzfs-removed-master-slave-terminology-from-its-codebase/

[Simon]

the best you can do is ignore the fuckwitts and put them in their places when they come out with this SJW bollocks.

[tggzzz]

It is no surprise that people who are told they are racist when there's no substance to that claim are defensive about it. It implies the same kind of smug moral superiority on behalf of the messenger that, in Britain at least, we're used to associating with people like Mary Whitehouse, Malcolm Muggeridge and other self-appointed moral guardians who berate mere mortals for moral failings that they perceive to exist in the targets of their whitterings, but such moral failings do not in fact exist.

That pair always made my flesh crawl. Excellent recruiters for the Humanist Association.

Always, without exception, this kind of rubbish is propagated people who have an obsession with race/sexual politics, not by ordinary folks. Ironically I most often encounter this kind of proselytisation in single white males, invariably against a background of them trying to sound "right on" enough to get into some lasses' knickers. Go figure...

I believe the term is "virtue signalling". If I had remembered it earlier in this thread, I would have used it pointedly several times.

[Cerebus]

the best you can do is ignore the fuckwitts and put them in their places when they come out with this SJW bollocks.

That's just name-calling that's guaranteed to foster an "us and them" attitude on both sides. Whenever I encounter someone using "SJW" as an insult I'm prompted to think "Why are they opposed to this? Does that make them Anti-social Injustice Cowards?". I get a similar feeling when I hear "liberal" used as an insult - what's so good about being illiberal? I like my beer and food in liberal helpings - talking of which I'm getting hungry.