Author Topic: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts  (Read 154438 times)

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Offline pepelevamp

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #125 on: June 12, 2020, 12:23:49 pm »
The master/slave description for devices on a bus is a correct one.
People are not machines. The problems facing people are real. People are concerned about getting shot. They're concerned about being treated like they're less than human. Being OCD about the names of technical components is not high on anybody's list of priorities.

Human cultures have had masters & slaves throughout most of history. It is not a skin colour issue in some areas of the world. In other areas it is. Racism always lives in a surrounding context. You can look almost identical and still have culture & race wars. China and Japan come to mind. Or North & South Korea.

If your culture & surroundings is far away from slavery, then the master/slave terminology doesn't occur to you as significant to you & your surroundings.

The solution is to deal with slavery & the social problems, not try to avoid beacons which pop up & remind you of the actual problems out there in the world. Don't silence the beacons on the side of the road warning you about dangers on the road. Fix the dangers on the road. Then master/slave jumpers on a hard drive will no longer be a beaconing reminder of problems you must fix. They will be nothing of consequence.

If a topic like this can generate 3 pages of dialogue, then we have 3 pages of dialogue to spend on things of significance. Hiding away things that remind you of problems ya gotta fix is not helpful. Tearing down statues that celebrate colonial racist pricks - that though is a good move. So don't pull that shit as some kind of counter example.
 
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Online coppice

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #126 on: June 12, 2020, 12:34:13 pm »
Human cultures have had masters & slaves throughout most of history. It is not a skin colour issue in some areas of the world. In other areas it is. Racism always lives in a surrounding context. You can look almost identical and still have culture & race wars. China and Japan come to mind. Or North & South Korea.
Its not really a skin colour issue anywhere. Through most of history people couldn't travel far enough to enslave people who looked significantly different, and were content to enslave people who looked just like themselves. The Slavic people got the raw end of the deal to surrounding people so often, they've ended up named after their sad past.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #127 on: June 12, 2020, 12:40:22 pm »
 
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Offline pepelevamp

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #128 on: June 12, 2020, 12:41:49 pm »
Its not really a skin colour issue anywhere. Through most of history people couldn't travel far enough to enslave people who looked significantly different, and were content to enslave people who looked just like themselves. The Slavic people got the raw end of the deal to surrounding people so often, they've ended up named after their sad past.
wow that is so intense. i cant believe i didnt notice that.
 

Offline engrguy42

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #129 on: June 12, 2020, 12:48:53 pm »
Does anyone else see the insanity in people taking it upon themselves to decide what OTHERS might find offensive? 
- The best engineers know enough to realize they don't know nuthin'...
- Those who agree with you can do no wrong. Those who disagree can do no right.
- I'm always amazed at how many people "already knew that" after you explain it to them in detail...
 
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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #130 on: June 12, 2020, 12:51:56 pm »
Does anyone else see the insanity in people taking it upon themselves to decide what OTHERS might find offensive? 

Yup, but it gives them the morale superiority, it's actually all about them not the "victim".
 
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Online coppice

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #131 on: June 12, 2020, 12:52:28 pm »
Does anyone else see the insanity in people taking it upon themselves to decide what OTHERS might find offensive?
I think "the bigotry of low expectations" is the correct term.
 

Offline lukego

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #132 on: June 12, 2020, 01:01:34 pm »
Does anyone else see the insanity in people taking it upon themselves to decide what OTHERS might find offensive?

I've actually delved into the "General Chat" section today to try and understand why other people have been saying that they don't feel comfortable in the EEVblog community and perceive the community as e.g. hostile to women and minorities. I'm taking them at their word that they are in fact offended by the way people talk here and I'm trying to understand their perspective.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #133 on: June 12, 2020, 01:06:50 pm »
Does anyone else see the insanity in people taking it upon themselves to decide what OTHERS might find offensive?

I've actually delved into the "General Chat" section today to try and understand why other people have been saying that they don't feel comfortable in the EEVblog community and perceive the community as e.g. hostile to women and minorities. I'm taking them at their word that they are in fact offended by the way people talk here and I'm trying to understand their perspective.

Which "other people" "don't feel comfortable in the EEVblog community"?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tom66

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #134 on: June 12, 2020, 01:10:56 pm »
Its not really a skin colour issue anywhere. Through most of history people couldn't travel far enough to enslave people who looked significantly different, and were content to enslave people who looked just like themselves. The Slavic people got the raw end of the deal to surrounding people so often, they've ended up named after their sad past.

It's the other way around.  The word for slavery has origins with the Slav ethnic group, but Slavic does not mean to be a slave.
 

Offline pepelevamp

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #135 on: June 12, 2020, 01:11:15 pm »
I've actually delved into the "General Chat" section today to try and understand why other people have been saying that they don't feel comfortable in the EEVblog community and perceive the community as e.g. hostile to women and minorities. I'm taking them at their word that they are in fact offended by the way people talk here and I'm trying to understand their perspective.

me too actually. reminded me to come back & check on my posts. i am super conscious though about the tendancy for those who mean well to self-cull their own communities until there is nobody left. its very easy to swing the hammer at those who are 90% on your own side. there's no nazis here. i find those who dont intrinsically think-in-horrible-ways (well-meaning people) tend to not really know where to find the horrible people. or even identify the real horrible actors in society. they just dont think the same way.

the real horrible people out there (who to fuck with us well-meaning people) enjoy nothing more than watching communities turn in on each other and self-cull. there are real bad actors - and they are out there.

its better to have an army of people who-dont agree-on-everything but have their heart in the right place, rather than try to sanitize your soldiers into nothing.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 01:14:46 pm by pepelevamp »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #136 on: June 12, 2020, 01:22:24 pm »
I've actually delved into the "General Chat" section today to try and understand why other people have been saying that they don't feel comfortable in the EEVblog community and perceive the community as e.g. hostile to women and minorities. I'm taking them at their word that they are in fact offended by the way people talk here and I'm trying to understand their perspective.

Source?

I think the minorities that the forum is possibly hostile to is trolls, drunks and morons. And none of those are racial or gender identities.
 

Offline lukego

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2020, 01:23:43 pm »
Which "other people" "don't feel comfortable in the EEVblog community"?

I'm not sure how to respond to that. Are you literally asking me to name people who have told me that they don't feel comfortable in this community? Or are you implying that there are no such people and I am spinning a yarn because I have an axe to grind (if you'll excuse a mixed metaphor)?
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #138 on: June 12, 2020, 01:28:47 pm »
I think tggzzz is asking for something other than a faith argument. I certainly would.

The sky is green today here. Oh what you expect me to take a photo? I can't do that.

I was a mod on a considerably larger forum for a number of years. I've seen this exact thread diversion at least 15 times before.
 

Online coppice

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2020, 01:34:33 pm »
the real horrible people out there (who to fuck with us well-meaning people) enjoy nothing more than watching communities turn in on each other and self-cull. there are real bad actors - and they are out there.
The real bad actors ARE the ones tearing things apart from within. Anything you try to do online attracts a bunch of holier than thou parasites, who will tear things apart if you don't take a hard line with them. If you are doing something deeply technical you are usually free of this kind of thing for a while, but the moment discussions turn to something less niche the parasites descend to destroy things.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #140 on: June 12, 2020, 01:37:30 pm »
Which "other people" "don't feel comfortable in the EEVblog community"?

I'm not sure how to respond to that. Are you literally asking me to name people who have told me that they don't feel comfortable in this community?

Please don't! Don't embarrass users for what they have told you. Just summarize why they don't feel comfortable.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #141 on: June 12, 2020, 01:53:23 pm »
I've worked on products that used master/slave terminology. I'm bothered that those products have been sold in places where those terms have strong connotations like southern USA. I don't like the idea of (say) a black person in Georgia having to talk about "masters" and "slaves" in project management meetings with their white bosses. That just seems gratuitously unpleasant. That image in my mind is why I won't choose the terms master/slave when building things in the future.
Do you realize that when doing so, you're actually not eradicating racism, but perpetuating it?  You are not being thoughtful, you are just enforcing the association between slaves and black people.  Every time you carefully avoid using those terms, you are expressing the association between "black", "slave", and "master".

I agree, making this association actually emphasizes the matter.

Not only that, but I actually know very few black people who are offended by those words. They are offended when they are being insulted or belittled. Master and slave are not insults. If anything, many of them actually wouldn't want those words, and even more so, what they historically mean to disappear, as they certainly wouldn't want their past history to be forgotten.

But using the words isn't going to bring back slavery, not any more that not using them will ensure it will never come back. This is just completely off.
And as I said earlier, Newspeak is not going to help. Impoverishing language is never going to make the world any better. I'm not sure of much, but I'm pretty convinced of this one.
 

Offline pepelevamp

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #142 on: June 12, 2020, 02:08:33 pm »
But using the words isn't going to bring back slavery, not any more that not using them will ensure it will never come back. This is just completely off.
And as I said earlier, Newspeak is not going to help. Impoverishing language is never going to make the world any better. I'm not sure of much, but I'm pretty convinced of this one.

I think this is a second and equally valid perspective of what I tried to describe above. Looking at the master/slave jumpers on a SPI device and thinking 'gee I should hide these words' instead of thinking 'gee I should fix problems this reminds me of'.

I think our hearts are in the right place already. I'm sure your heart is in the right place already. This is kind of like looking at curved designed in the wallpaper when you're 14 and thinking it makes a pretty good set of boobs. There are problems in society and we should fix society. Then we can look at our SPI devices & not be concerned.

Our concerns are about the atrocities in society. Normalizing neonazis and fascism doens't come from SPI & ATA terminology. And it is certainly nowhere near what people should focus their efforts on if you are even slightly concerned about nazis. Anymore than crime being increased from the use of chroot jails.

If you want to fix nazis - go after fox news, trump, misinformation merchants, lying politicians, data mining platforms and gun-shows. Hate rallys are not full of semiconductor vendors.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #143 on: June 12, 2020, 02:13:57 pm »
Which "other people" "don't feel comfortable in the EEVblog community"?

I'm not sure how to respond to that. Are you literally asking me to name people who have told me that they don't feel comfortable in this community? Or are you implying that there are no such people and I am spinning a yarn because I have an axe to grind (if you'll excuse a mixed metaphor)?

Your statement about "other people" and "not feeling comfortable" surprises me. I have not noticed anything like that, except that which has already been commented upon and moderated appropriately (thanks!).

So, what evidence is there to support your statement ? If statements are public, you can provide links. If privately to you, then why you and what is the substance of their complaints?

Without that basic information nothing can be done and nothing should be done.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline lukego

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #144 on: June 12, 2020, 02:18:33 pm »
Without that basic information nothing can be done and nothing should be done.

I'm glad we settled this, then.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #145 on: June 12, 2020, 02:20:05 pm »
You forgot to quote the rest of the post with the context...
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #146 on: June 12, 2020, 02:30:33 pm »
Without that basic information nothing can be done and nothing should be done.

I'm glad we settled this, then.

I'm not comfortable with that response. It is a deliberate attempt to cast my statement in a bad light by omitting the relevant context. That kind of debating tactic is commonly used by people that want to foment unrest, and has no place in a public forum like this.

So, again, what is the substance behind your statement?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline lukego

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #147 on: June 12, 2020, 02:37:06 pm »
You forgot to quote the rest of the post with the context...

I'm opting out of this discussion because it seems like the reaction is very defensive. I could provide links to the discussions I'm talking about but the pattern here seems to be to "well actually" other people's points of view and I don't really see the value.

For my part I'm a bit disappointed. I see people saying they feel unwelcome on this forum, I see people here on this thread not believing that such people exist, I see Dave calling these people "toxic" without addressing what they say, and apparently Dave is even removing posts from the forum to shield them from criticism e.g. to avoid discussions about how EEVblog discusses the merit of women in electronics.

I suppose that's an "agree to disagree" situation.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #148 on: June 12, 2020, 02:41:28 pm »
Just because some feel uncomfortable in a community does not mean the community needs to change.

Not too long ago, Dave called me a troll.  That hurt, deep.  I may be weird, but one of my core ideas is that I refuse to knowingly take advantage of others, and try to be useful to others.  Calling me a troll is worse insult than calling me a fat cunt – or basically anything else.  "Something something useless" is the worst insult I can imagine.

Then, he mentioned that I was making an argument nobody else was talking about, and I realized that that was true.  I was the person bringing a bug collection to a birdwatching event.  There is a connection, an important one to me, one that causes problems in real life, but that connection was irrelevant in that context.  There was no malice either way, just frustration at the discussion not having a relevant point; the arguments never intersected, and thus no progress was made.

I also know that even though I only want to be useful, I have my sharp corners, and rather often offend others, or they just develop a dislike to me – or rather, how I express things, as they don't know me, they only read my output here on the intarwebs.  That too is okay, and a big reason why I use a pseudonym and not my real name: it helps me not take it too personally.  This forum also has "ignore list" support, if there are members whose output irritates you; the forum does not force you to interact with everyone.

So, I am someone who has been offended and who has unintentionally offended others.  Does that mean I should change, or remove myself from here, or that the forum discussions should change so that such situations do not occur?

No.  Conflict cannot be avoided.  Conflict itself is not evil or bad, it is a fact of life.  Intentionally causing conflict is bad, but it is actually quite rare.

(I do know some former members here who were so unhappy about how conflicts are resolved here that they left.  That too is a valid choice.)

Fact is, especially online each individual is free to participate in whichever communities they like.  Their internal rules and "culture" evolve naturally, as their membership evolves.  Not everyone needs to feel welcome and to fit in every community, because that is impossible.

For example, I had to stop participating in Stack Overflow and StackExchange networks, because I am unable to grasp the intricacies of gender politics and the new requirements about how language should be used with relation to those.  Even in writing, where I can fix my errors if I detect them, I still occasionally miswrite him/her.  I just cannot convince my mind that gender or skin color is so important to some people that it must be taken into account whenever referring to that person or their output.  To me, that is just .. alien.  I was perfectly happy to use the singular 'they' and thus avoid the issue, until they changed the rules and labeled that too offensive (depending on whether the person involved accepts or finds it offensive).  And I'm more interested in helping with the problems people have than in people, so I am not going to try and retrain/rewire my brain for that: it's too violent.

If one does not feel comfortable in a community, there are three options:
1. Leave, and find/found somewhere else more comfortable.
2. Change how you interact with others, so you can feel comfortable.
3. Change the community or everyone else.

The third option is favourite for people, because it involves the least amount of personal effort.  It demands others accommodate oneself, because (emotions).

However, online, anyone can create a new community, based on whatever rules they want.  Because of the first point, if that community is better, you only need to make sure the word about it spreads, and it will grow naturally.  If it truly works better.  This makes the first point the most natural action!

Humans are imperfect.  I know I make errors, and even as adults, we can still grow: we can learn how to interact positively (not emotionally positively, but in a way that creates benefits for all participants) with just about anyone.  In the past, when we were still hunter-gatherers, we did that all the time, and not just with people, but with animals, too.  We even invented spirits and ghosts and elves and gods, because we decided that approach works well for interacting with the rest of the world too.
That means the second point is not, and should not, be about molding oneself to others' expectations, but to examine how one is interacting with others and exploring changing it – in different ways, directed by ones own mind, and not others' expectations – because it opens up new possibilities and new benefits to oneself.

All this leads to a simple conclusion: there is very little to be gained by demanding an online community changes or changes their rules because some feel uncomfortable there.  There are obvious exceptions, like biased conflict resolution and unlawful activity, and those do come up every now and then in every online community, but it's more about moderation and not the community in general.  Learning to co-operate, or leaving for somewhere else, perhaps even building a competing community, is always a better choice, because then there is the possibility of creating something positive – and not just changing something existing, and hoping the change is positive.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 02:46:04 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: 'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts
« Reply #149 on: June 12, 2020, 02:53:48 pm »
You forgot to quote the rest of the post with the context...

I'm opting out of this discussion because it seems like the reaction is very defensive.

That's a bizarre interpretation and reaction.

I'm trying to understand the points you are trying (and failing) to make. Without that how could I improve?

Quote
I could provide links to the discussions I'm talking about but the pattern here seems to be to "well actually" other people's points of view and I don't really see the value.

Point to where I have indicated that. Don't omit context.

Quote
For my part I'm a bit disappointed. I see people saying they feel unwelcome on this forum, I see people here on this thread not believing that such people exist,

There was a movie where the young protagonist said "I see dead people". Quite rightly that bald statement on its own wasn't believed!

Quote
I see Dave calling these people "toxic" without addressing what they say, and apparently Dave is even removing posts from the forum to shield them from criticism e.g. to avoid discussions about how EEVblog discusses the merit of women in electronics.

I suppose that's an "agree to disagree" situation.

Sometimes those with a lot of experience can spot developing situations long before inexperienced people. That's true of many topics, including technology, politics, relationships,...
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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