'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[EEVblog]

My biggest problem with these apparently mild changes of words is when the books start to be burned. After all, a lot is already being done to erase history and, as Brett Weinstein mentioned in the latest Joe Rogan Podcast, this is a very sophisticated technique to change and convert your mind: instead of brute force, you start agreeing with the "perpetrator" in a few common ground topucs and, through the use of fallacy and false equivalency, you end up far long in the doctrine.

This is why you can't let it take hold, if you do it will eventually infest everything. They will not stop at one word, there are no lines, there are boundaries, they will keep pushing because they feel more empowered every time you cave in.
Rational people (in particular, leaders) have to take a stand and say no, this is stupid, it adds no value and is just disrupting society, go away.

[John B]

My biggest problem with these apparently mild changes of words is when the books start to be burned. After all, a lot is already being done to erase history and, as Brett Weinstein mentioned in the latest Joe Rogan Podcast, this is a very sophisticated technique to change and convert your mind: instead of brute force, you start agreeing with the "perpetrator" in a few common ground topucs and, through the use of fallacy and false equivalency, you end up far long in the doctrine.

This is why you can't let it take hold, if you do it will eventually infest everything. They will not stop at one word, there are no lines, there are boundaries, they will keep pushing because they feel more empowered every time you cave in.
Rational people (in particular, leaders) have to take a stand and say no, this is stupid, it adds no value and is just disrupting society, go away.

Yes, those who cannot control themselves will seek to control everyone and everything around them.

I cannot understand why anyone would think it's a good idea to take on the responsibility of maintaining and moderating the emotional state of those who are easily offended, but even in this community there are examples of people who have a perverse symbiosis with this way of thinking, ie the "white male saviour" type who speaks all the right platitudes and indulges the whims of the easily offended.  I guess that is how they fit into a group.

One thing to note is the subtle but important distinction in describing something as "offensive" vs noting that people are taking offense. One area to erect a solid boundary is not to assent to the idea that things are offensive, but rather that people are taking offense.

After all, some are more equal than others, and if you accept the notion of inherently offensive things, some people's offense will take precedent over, well, everything.

[SilverSolder]

We have to recognize that not everyone is a self confident alpha male...  while acknowledging that the problem isn't fixed by killing off all alpha males!

[tggzzz]

We have to recognize that not everyone is a self confident alpha male...  while acknowledging that the problem isn't fixed by killing off all alpha males!

Succinct, accurate, useful

[SparkyFX]

There are so many people out there who seem obsessed with white-knighting for groups of people they themselves do not even belong to and it drives me nuts.

The empathy of others drives you nuts? There is this "Golden Rule" which people that just try to get along usually live by, trying to vilify it as white-knighting is as good as trying to vilify off context terms like master and slave. If you prefer more scientific descriptions look up "mirror neurons".

And thats exactly what ICs do not possess, so it's kind of pointless to discuss ambiguity of language for technical devices, probably just the result of trying to roll etymology on its head (the use of these terms in slavery do describe it in already existing language, not the language enabled slavery) in a sensationalized form.

These connotations often do not cross language barriers as well, or have a completely different connotation in different languages, then the discussion even makes less sense.

[Simon]

There are so many people out there who seem obsessed with white-knighting for groups of people they themselves do not even belong to and it drives me nuts.

The empathy of others drives you nuts? There is this "Golden Rule" which people that just try to get along usually live by, trying to vilify it as white-knighting is as good as trying to vilify off context terms like master and slave. If you prefer more scientific descriptions look up "mirror neurons".

No the problem is people trying to find a problem to solve for someone else that did not ask for it to be solved. I did some first aid training once and the guy doing it told us of an incident where he was explaining to a group that included a black person that to check for some thing (can't remember what) look at skin colour of the face, if it's pale the patient is in trouble as there is no blood getting round. He pointed out that in the case of a black person where a slight change in skin colour is unlikely due to lack of blood circulation to check inside their mouth. A hite person took offense on behalf of the black person who was perfectly fine with the explanation which made sense and was to help saves someone life. But no stupid SJW are happy to let black people die in the event they need first aid because the nuances in training to help them best should not be allowed. This is where it becomes ridiculous.

[tggzzz]

Many things in life are ridiculous, most of them to do with Other People.

Somebody ought to have pithly introduced that warrior to the concepts of alligators, swamps, and civil engineering.

[bd139]

Many things in life are ridiculous, most of them to do with Other People.

One reason I avoid them where possible.

[tom66]

I don't mind people getting upset or offended at something I said, that's ok. But once I explain to them the context and the intention, that should be that, end of discussion. But sadly in the vast majority of cases that doesn't happen, these people are simply incapable of understanding nuance and context. And it is impossible to hold any rational conversation with them.

This is the biggest problem for me.  There are certain words, like the N-word, which have no legitimate use.  They are purely racist slurs.  It is right to call people racist for using those terms against another, without valid context (historical accuracy for instance, when depicting a racist character.)

But words like retarded, stupid, idiot: these words are usually valid in some context, and should remain valid in these contexts.  Of course it is offensive to call a person retarded if they have a mental disability, and that is not OK, it is the same as bullying. But using the word itself, should not be offensive. And attempting to prescribe language like this is very 1984-esque.

[Simon]

I don't mind people getting upset or offended at something I said, that's ok. But once I explain to them the context and the intention, that should be that, end of discussion. But sadly in the vast majority of cases that doesn't happen, these people are simply incapable of understanding nuance and context. And it is impossible to hold any rational conversation with them.

This is the biggest problem for me.  There are certain words, like the N-word, which have no legitimate use.  They are purely racist slurs.  It is right to call people racist for using those terms against another, without valid context (historical accuracy for instance, when depicting a racist character.)

But words like retarded, stupid, idiot: these words are usually valid in some context, and should remain valid in other contexts.  Of course it is offensive to call a person retarded if they have a mental disability, and that is not OK, it is the same as bullying. But using the word itself, should not be offensive. And attempting to prescribe language like this is very 1984-esque.

But if the medical definition of a mental disability is retarded, which literally means slowed which is what a learning difficulty is, a retardation in mental development. But now it's offensive because someone decided and changed the word. Now they are special needs which is also the new slur.

Whilst black people call themselves niggers I struggle to understand how it can be considered racist although it's not a word I would use to refer to a black person. We had an incident here on the forum where someone posted a video of a black person referring to themselves as a nigger, someone else who was not aware of the, um.. context (stupidity) then went on to refer to the black person as a nigger at which point I get a report from someone outraged demanding their banning and oh how intolerable this was. Well I was confused as the user usually does not use such language so I back tracked a bit and found the video and realized what had happened.

[PlainName]

There are certain words, like the N-word, which have no legitimate use

It took 200 years for that to become a slur. It's not the word but the intent that causes problems, and if a particular word is particularly favoured as a slur then that too will end up be referred to only by its initial letter. Any of those insults you mention could end up that way - they are intended to be insulting, after all, even though they once weren't.

[Simon]

the problem is the usage of the word or the context of it's usage, if the word itself is the problem then we will be learning a new language every year.

[magic]

There are so many people out there who seem obsessed with white-knighting for groups of people they themselves do not even belong to and it drives me nuts.

First they come for the blacks, then for da joos, then it will be us. I've heard it so many times that it occurred to me they may really believe it and then left wing politics started to make a lot more sense to me.

Recently it was discussed at work that asking someone "where are you from" could be offensive and it was suggested instead to ask them "where is it that you call home". I'm genuinely confused because to me these statements mean exactly the same thing 

It will stop confusing you once you meet some pitch black "French" who is absolutely maddened by asking him "okay, you are French, but where are you really from?"
I think somebody already said it, it's a way for them to weasel out and say "I call this place right here my home". You see, race is a social construct and so is ethnicity, family, nationality and all of that. It really is irrelevant what somebody was born, only what they identify zerselves with and you are not allowed to question it any further.

Then there's the term "People Of Color", is that not the same as saying "Colored People"? The latter is considered offensive, the former to me sounds the same as the latter so I don't use either.

People get offended by you not going out of your way to remind yourself and everyone around how important social justice is to you.
Using the latest social justice fad terminology is a way you remind yourself and everyone around how important social justice is.

Once the effect wears out and a social justice term becomes a common noun and perhaps, oh horror, makes it into some racial government statistics (like African American already did) then a new term is invented for virtue signaling and the whole cycle starts anew. It will never end (until the 7+ billion people of the world become one unified Eurasian-Negroid race similar in appearance to Ancient Egyptians and the diversity of peoples is replaced with a diversity of individuals - I will wait ).

And in my personal experience there are more who don't want to be "represented" by the "allies".

Yes, these are those who contact you In general, most of the "people of color" in the West are clearly some sort of liberal/libertarian/egalitarian/post-racist/etc because otherwise they wouldn't be living there in the first place (maybe with the exception of the latest wave of "just about anyone who has the legs to cross an unsecured border").
But there are others too who fuel the drama for having nothing better to do with their lives.

At any rate, I know software developers who avoided the master/slave terminology a few years ago to escape controversy (yes, it's that old). We know that Microsoft® GitHub™ announced they are "working on it", whatever that means. Google, Facebook etc probably are "sanitizing" their codebases behind the scenes as we speak. Those clowns will do it. It may not happen everywhere, there will be resistance etc, but it will be happening in many places. Just like "affirmative action" and all the other progress stuff.

America's problems can only be solved by Rocket Man at this point

[coppice]

Recently it was discussed at work that asking someone "where are you from" could be offensive and it was suggested instead to ask them "where is it that you call home". I'm genuinely confused because to me these statements mean exactly the same thing 

How are they the same? The place I call home is the house I own now. The place I am from was my parents house when I was born (even though I was born in a hospital a few kilometres from that house). That's a personal view, though. A lot of people see those terms differently, but I think few will see them as being the same. Some feel a strong connection to their roots. For me, wherever I lay my hat, that's my hat stand.

[Zero999]

What words are deemed to be offensive changes with time. In the medieval times insulting Christianity and monarchy were the most offensive things, as it was the main religion and the monarchy wanted to remain in tight control. Now things have shifted to insulting groups of people.

We have the euphemism treadmill, which means that new terms are continuously invented, as they start to be used as insults. For example, the words idiot and moron were originally used to refer to those with learning difficulties, but they were used as insults, so they invented a new term: mental retardation, but that started to be used as an insult so newer terms were invented. The most recent term I've heard is global developmental delay, which is difficult to remember for many with average intelligence. I volunteer at Riding of the Disabled where many of the clients have learning disabilities. I remember when one of the leaders read a client's file and they asked me what global developmental delay meant, so I used a more old fashioned term, which would now be regarded as offensive and they immediately understood, but weren't offended or angry with me, because they knew I wouldn't use it in front of them.

We'll never win, people with learning difficulties will always be the subject of ridicule by bullies and inventing new terms will not change anything.

[daqq]

One of the issues: If you are going to change terminology every time someone is offended, you'll end up doing massive changes to terminology once a month.

[engrguy42]

IMO, the biggest mistake with these kinds of discussions is when people try to apply logic to understand what people do and think. They assume people are operating with thought or knowledge or understanding or concern about actually solving problems.

BZZZTTT!!! WRONG!!!

People operate based on feelings and emotions. That's it. They do what feels good or right, and they do and believe what makes them feel good. They do things that boost their egos. They do things that make them feel good about THEMSELVES. For many, care for others is just a front that is disguising care for self and the need to feel good about yourself.

People believe what they WANT to believe. Facts are irrelevant. If it feels good, it's good. If it feels bad, it's bad. And anything that disagrees with them is bad and evil, cuz it hurts my FEELINGS. Facts are irrelevant.

The things most people do to combat a "social evil" are based on feelings and emotions, and the need to feel good about themselves. Most of the acts you see are irrelevant and useless, solely pretentious posturing by people who want others to "like" them.

We've had this since the beginning of time. But what I find really scary now is that the adults have left the room. Governments, corporations, parents, seem to all be caving to this childish nonsense that will ultimately only divide us further and accomplish nothing. We're in a very difficult time, and we should be working together to find a way out rather than playing childish, emotional games. We're ignoring the real issues, and instead focusing on the latest video or post on FB.

We're doomed. 

[Kjelt]

the problem is the usage of the word or the context of it's usage, if the word itself is the problem then we will be learning a new language every year.

As is prooven many times it is the n word itself that is exclusive for use claimed by the afroamerican people.
A dutch soccer coach was fired in the US because there was a rap song playing in the teams dressing room and he sang together with a few players three sentences and one of them had the n word. Another (aa) player filed a complaint with his union. This was a player that in the eyes of the coach was not performing optimal and he less selected less to play. So yeah things are becoming weird over there. No white man except Tarantino in his movies is allowed to use the n word. But if it is that heavy emotionally and historically loaded why not abandon it all together ?

Some words mean different things in different countries/cultures. In our country shit means too bad, in the sense of unfortunate. In the US it is a pretty heavy curse. But we use it all the time, the f word also, it has no special heavy meaning in our language it is just a cool word came into our culture thtough american movies. Cultures differ.

[magic]

One of the issues: If you are going to change terminology every time someone is offended, you'll end up doing massive changes to terminology once a month.

It's not about us, my fellow white people. That's a small price to pay for ending stereotypes and prejudice.

All these brave tech companies already took a hard stance on racism. Why is your name not on this list yet?
https://www.zdnet.com/article/github-to-replace-master-with-alternative-term-to-avoid-slavery-references/

I told you they will do it

[Zero999]

the problem is the usage of the word or the context of it's usage, if the word itself is the problem then we will be learning a new language every year.

As is prooven many times it is the n word itself that is exclusive for use claimed by the afroamerican people.
A dutch soccer coach was fired in the US because there was a rap song playing in the teams dressing room and he sang together with a few players three sentences and one of them had the n word. Another (aa) player filed a complaint with his union. This was a player that in the eyes of the coach was not performing optimal and he less selected less to play. So yeah things are becoming weird over there. No white man except Tarantino in his movies is allowed to use the n word. But if it is that heavy emotionally and historically loaded why not abandon it all together ?

Some words mean different things in different countries/cultures. In our country shit means too bad, in the sense of unfortunate. In the US it is a pretty heavy curse. But we use it all the time, the f word also, it has no special heavy meaning in our language it is just a cool word came into our culture thtough american movies. Cultures differ.

What did the other players say? One would hope that if the coach was just singing along and wasn't being racist, they would have leapt to his defence.

A few months ago someone of colour left the company where I work because they had a disagreement with some white colleagues. I've heard rumours he's now making accusations of racism and is trying to sue. I think he's making it up to get money. I know the people he's accusing aren't racist and there are other people of colour who have worked with the accused and don't believe them either.

One thing I've noticed is most people, of any colour, hate false accusations of racism. They feel it undermines everyone fighting for equality and there should be consequencies for anyone making false, malicious allegations. I think falsely accusing someone of racism, is a form of racism in itself and deserves a similar punishment.

[Kjelt]

What did the other players say? One would hope that if the coach was just singing along and wasn't being racist, they would have leapt to his defence.

it was handled behind closed doors, probably nda and financial compensation because the Coach did not disclose much afterwards besides that he was shocked and disapointed.
Lets keep it to big cultural differences between what is ok and what is not. Scary.

I don't know how this exactly is going down in the US but I feel that if a person has such an accusation brought against him and it hits the news, everyone involved steps back and drops him as bad news. So much for innocent until found guilty.

[james_s]

How are they the same? The place I call home is the house I own now. The place I am from was my parents house when I was born (even though I was born in a hospital a few kilometres from that house). That's a personal view, though. A lot of people see those terms differently, but I think few will see them as being the same. Some feel a strong connection to their roots. For me, wherever I lay my hat, that's my hat stand.

Because what I'm curious to know is where somebody grew up before immigrating to my country, not so I can judge them but so that I can form a connection, so I know something fundamental about them. If I ask that question in a different way it's still the same question, just worded differently. If people really don't want to tell others where they originated that's fine, but just say so, don't tell us to ask the question differently.

[DimitriP]

One of the issues: If you are going to change terminology every time someone is offended, you'll end up doing massive changes to terminology once a month.

It's not about us, my fellow white people. That's a small price to pay for ending stereotypes and prejudice.

All these brave tech companies already took a hard stance on racism. Why is your name not on this list yet?
https://www.zdnet.com/article/github-to-replace-master-with-alternative-term-to-avoid-slavery-references/

I told you they will do it

Support in public, fund in private:  (I wonder what the "approved" word to describe this would be )

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/18/police-foundations-nonprofits-amazon-target-microsoft

[DimitriP]

One of the issues: If you are going to change terminology every time someone is offended, you'll end up doing massive changes to terminology once a month.

It doesn't have to be once a month.
It's the few months before an election that carry all the weight.

[james_s]

One thing I've noticed is most people, of any colour, hate false accusations of racism. They feel it undermines everyone fighting for equality and there should be consequencies for anyone making false, malicious allegations. I think falsely accusing someone of racism, is a form of racism in itself and deserves a similar punishment.

It's the same as accusing someone of being a witch, except that at least racism is a real thing and some people actually are racist. In both cases it's a serious accusation by which one is guilty until proven innocent and it is impossible to prove innocence. It's a convenient way to silence someone with which one disagrees.