'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[magic]

dogs are all one species and there's no biological features or genetic features that allow one to tell breeds of dogs apart, that a particular dog is a particular breed is a subjective human aesthetic judgement

Except for size, strength, character, and all the morphological differences which create the aforementioned aesthetic judgement
And guess what, all of that is down to genetics unless you believe that dogs have souls which even many religions don't believe.
How can you even post such a thing?

Because it's true - ask any biologist. If they are not one species how come you can interbreed two different breeds of dog and what you get out is .... a dog and no matter how often you breed down that line you keep getting dogs. [...] Don't facepalm people when you're talking about something that you clearly know nothing about.

If all that matters to you is sex then yes, there are indeed no features that would allow you to tell dog breeds apart
But your statement as you wrote it is nonsense and no biologist would have difficulties telling dog breeds apart by features other than reproductive compatibility. Or even aesthetics.

It never cease to amaze me how people will sideline a conversation about one thing

You did by introducing a non-sequitur and insulting those who pointed it out.

(race is not a real biological phenomenon, it is a social invention, humans are one species) (dogs are all one species too).

Nobody cares if dogs or humans are one species, maybe you. And the fact that they are has nothing to do with races/breeds/subspecies which are all by definition classifications of discernible subpopulations within one species. Maybe go inform the biologists that they are wasting their time even thinking about such things and should better twiddle their thumbs until the populations diverge enough to become incompatible because the subject of their studies isn't a real natural phenomenon otherwise.

I also don't think anyone would have trouble telling human races apart based on biological features. If you think about it, the whole idea of race wouldn't even exist otherwise and we wouldn't be having a thread about racism here.

<total troll mode on>
Maybe nuclearcat is right and you are just pretending that race isn't real to obscure the reality that white people like you are racist

[tom66]

Someone pointed out something to me the other day.

If you compare the career and educational attainments of Irish Travellers to that of the general population, you'll find they are similarly behind in performance to the general BAME groups in the UK.  However, Irish Travellers are white.  There is no way to tell that someone is of such a background by just looking at their skin colour.  So you cannot be racist to these people without having strong knowledge of their background; and it would be nearly impossible to be "unconsciously racist".

So do these people suffer institutional racism?  Or are we looking at a problem more ingrained in society and community; these people don't have the best start in life, and it reduces their educational and career attainments?

And, more importantly, how do we fix this?  Society universally benefits when more people are on equal footing.

[bd139]

It's a good point. Some cultural ideologies and behaviours are simply self-destructive and not attached to race.

So we tried taking that one on with the whole drugs thing...

Human species is beyond help.

[tggzzz]

(race is not a real biological phenomenon, it is a social invention, humans are one species) (dogs are all one species too).

Nobody cares if dogs or humans are one species, maybe you. And the fact that they are has nothing to do with races/breeds/subspecies which are all by definition classifications of discernible subpopulations within one species. Maybe go inform the biologists that they are wasting their time even thinking about such things and should better twiddle their thumbs until the populations diverge enough to become incompatible because the subject of their studies isn't a real natural phenomenon otherwise.

I also don't think anyone would have trouble telling human races apart based on biological features. If you think about it, the whole idea of race wouldn't even exist otherwise and we wouldn't be having a thread about racism here.

Remarkably, every single statement there is wrong - there are strong counter-examples to every statement. Quite an achievement!

[paulca]

If you think this is bad for electronics.  All us software devs are going to hell.

This is not even a slightly contrived bit of code.

Code: [Select]

void terminateDisabledChildren( Element element ) {
  while( element.getChildren().hasNext() ) {
     Element child = element.getChildren().next();
     if( child.isDisabled() ) {
       element.getChildren().remove(child);
       child.terminate();
       child = null;
     }
}

Primary and secondary doesn't describe the roles each component actually plays in master/slave.

Authoritative and obedient ... maybe?  Even that has issues on both sides of the argument.

Enforcer and obeyer?

Demander and demanded?

Tell you what.  Lets go on strike and see how long these virtue signalling, SJW, woke fuck wits take to come crawling when they can no longer spew bullshit or project their own racism on the rest of us on social media.

"I'm sorry, but due to the popularist opinion that all software patterns and terms which reflect inequality even in inanimate objects should be removed, we are shutting down all software service until the extensive refactor can be carried out."

... PS... please remove the Master (or Slave) cylinders from your car and find a large hill.

[paulca]

a character who is clearly dullalli being a bit racist is not saying that what he says is right, it is an example of the crazily unacceptable things that even in the 70's were unacceptable that a dullalli old man might say.

But... the way modern media works is simple.  You make one media influence people's desire to consume some other media.  You make one product influence people's desire to buy another product.

They have created a very strong relationship between media, products and influencing people with them, so much so that they believe they must remove all content and all products that might influence people negatively.  This would harm their brands... and actually that is where we fight back.

"Brand" - an identifying mark burned on livestock or (especially in former times) criminals or slaves with a branding iron.

When you, the slave, wear your Nike trainers, at least today they don't use a hot iron to brand you.

Plenty of retort ammunition here:
http://www.understandingslavery.com/index.php-option=com_glossary&view=glossary&Itemid=89.html

[tom66]

I'd like to see social media peeps complain about slavery when they use an Apple iPhone, whose supply chain almost certainly involves some form of modern slavery, given China's treatment of the Uyghur Muslims.

I think modern day slavery is more important than something that happened 100 years ago and therefore the terms master/slave, are just so inconsequential it makes me wonder whether people's priorities are centred on improving the real world or just feeling good about making a change.

[daqq]

So many pages and I still haven't been given any explanation as to how a word that accurately describes a relationship between two entities, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity or anything, and is used on non-living objects is racist. Oh well.

[Simon]

So many pages and I still haven't been given any explanation as to how a word that accurately describes a relationship between two entities, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity or anything, and is used on non-living objects is racist. Oh well.

But that is the entire point! It's stupid.

[coppice]

The media in the UK are being so insensitive to the sense of self-worth of retail employees this week, describing most of them as non-essential. 

[magic]

Remarkably, every single statement there is wrong - there are strong counter-examples to every statement. Quite an achievement!

Unremarkably, no example is provided to back up this claim.

If you think this is bad for electronics.  All us software devs are going to hell.

This is not even a slightly contrived bit of code.

Code: [Select]

void terminateDisabledChildren( Element element ) {
  while( element.getChildren().hasNext() ) {
     Element child = element.getChildren().next();
     if( child.isDisabled() ) {
       element.getChildren().remove(child);
       child.terminate();
       child = null;
     }
}


This is just straightforward toxic masculinity and lack of sensitivity at play. It could be a freshman critical gender theory homework assignment to clean it up; here's a random solution:

Code: [Select]

void unloadDeactivatedSubcomponents( Component component ) {
  while( component.getSubcomponents().hasNext() ) {
     Component subcomponent = component.getSubcomponents().next();
     if( subcomponent.isDeactivated() ) {
       component.getSubcomponents().remove(subcomponent);
       subcomponent.unload();
       subcomponent = nothing;
     }
}

So many pages and I still haven't been given any explanation as to how a word that accurately describes a relationship between two entities, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity or anything, and is used on non-living objects is racist. Oh well.

I gave one. It traumatizes descendants of slavery victims and makes them unable to perform their work, which is as bad as outright discrimination.

[tom66]

I am unable to tell if @magic is being satirical here or not, when talking about toxic masculinity and code.

[nuclearcat]

I gave one. It traumatizes descendants of slavery victims and makes them unable to perform their work, which is as bad as outright discrimination.

Something tells me that they need assistance of a psychologist/psychotherapist, and not imitatation of help to them, by changing few words and letters.

[tooki]

Someone pointed out something to me the other day.

If you compare the career and educational attainments of Irish Travellers to that of the general population, you'll find they are similarly behind in performance to the general BAME groups in the UK.  However, Irish Travellers are white.  There is no way to tell that someone is of such a background by just looking at their skin colour.  So you cannot be racist to these people without having strong knowledge of their background; and it would be nearly impossible to be "unconsciously racist".

So do these people suffer institutional racism?  Or are we looking at a problem more ingrained in society and community; these people don't have the best start in life, and it reduces their educational and career attainments?

And, more importantly, how do we fix this?  Society universally benefits when more people are on equal footing.

Well, not racism, but definitely have some structural disadvantages. The poorest of white America is similarly poor to poor black America. Both of these groups suffer at the altar of the War on the Poor that’s actively occurring in USA.

I completely agree with you that society benefits from equality of opportunity (not of outcomes!). Alas, tons of Americans think poverty is the result of moral failings, not of shitty luck.

[tooki]

I'd like to see social media peeps complain about slavery when they use an Apple iPhone, whose supply chain almost certainly involves some form of modern slavery, given China's treatment of the Uyghur Muslims.

I think modern day slavery is more important than something that happened 100 years ago and therefore the terms master/slave, are just so inconsequential it makes me wonder whether people's priorities are centred on improving the real world or just feeling good about making a change.

At least Apple makes a sincere, concerted effort to eliminate any kind of slavery (as well as child labor and various other abuses, plus environmental friendliness) from its supply chain, which is more than can be said for the vast majority of companies.

[madires]

Are there any non-white forum members who would like to tell us what they think about this mess?

[tggzzz]

You'll be able to find any opinion you want, of course. You have to be particularly careful of those that will use any claim to avoid personal responsibilty for something, or to gain a pecuniary advantage, or just as flack.

Here's a 28s pithy take on it; fictional but as valid as any PoV that can be tainted as above

[Cerebus]

If you think this is bad for electronics.  All us software devs are going to hell.

This is not even a slightly contrived bit of code.

Code: [Select]

void terminateDisabledChildren( Element element ) {
  while( element.getChildren().hasNext() ) {
     Element child = element.getChildren().next();
     if( child.isDisabled() ) {
       element.getChildren().remove(child);
       child.terminate();
       child = null;
     }
}

Primary and secondary doesn't describe the roles each component actually plays in master/slave.

Authoritative and obedient ... maybe?  Even that has issues on both sides of the argument.

Enforcer and obeyer?

Demander and demanded?

Tell you what.  Lets go on strike and see how long these virtue signalling, SJW, woke fuck wits take to come crawling when they can no longer spew bullshit or project their own racism on the rest of us on social media.

"I'm sorry, but due to the popularist opinion that all software patterns and terms which reflect inequality even in inanimate objects should be removed, we are shutting down all software service until the extensive refactor can be carried out."

... PS... please remove the Master (or Slave) cylinders from your car and find a large hill.

Paul I think you should consider removing your message. You're not wrong, it's just that some nutjob is going to see it and before you know it all us poor code-monkeys are going to be spending the next three decades with grep and sed sanitizing code bases wholesale.

This is how secret societies get started, you want to talk about something, you realise that discussing it publicly is going to make a lightning rod out of you, you go private and before you know it you have a secret handshake, shibboleth phrases as passwords, you start rolling your trouser legs up and someone starts calling themselves the great high poo-bar.

All  , for the more literal minded among you.

[Cerebus]

I am unable to tell if @magic is being satirical here or not, when talking about toxic masculinity and code.

Satirical? Probably not. Check his postings in general and you'll find he often enjoys stirring the shit.

[Cerebus]

I'd like to see social media peeps complain about slavery when they use an Apple iPhone, whose supply chain almost certainly involves some form of modern slavery, given China's treatment of the Uyghur Muslims.

I think modern day slavery is more important than something that happened 100 years ago and therefore the terms master/slave, are just so inconsequential it makes me wonder whether people's priorities are centred on improving the real world or just feeling good about making a change.

At least Apple makes a sincere, concerted effort to eliminate any kind of slavery (as well as child labor and various other abuses, plus environmental friendliness) from its supply chain, which is more than can be said for the vast majority of companies.

There's been evidence that they are not yet fully successful, but yes they do seen to have been making a genuine effort to do the right thing. Do you know who isn't? A lot of US corporations including McDonalds, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics and many others all use prison labour which, being paid a princely 23 cents an hour isn't strictly technically slavery but once you examine all the other conditions of it, and the coercion applied to make people take these 'jobs' it is slavery in all but name. When you further consider the massive racial imbalances in the prison population then it takes on a whole new colour (pun intended). Anyone who has any doubt about the veracity of this, google "modern slavery US prisons".

[TimFox]

The 13th Amendment to the US Constitution was the abolition of slavery in the US, but there is a loophole:
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
A good example of straightforward legal drafting, much better than the sloppy syntax in the 2nd Amendment.

[wraper]

A lot of US corporations including McDonalds, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics and many others all use prison labour which, being paid a princely 23 cents an hour isn't strictly technically slavery but once you examine all the other conditions of it, and the coercion applied to make people take these 'jobs' it is slavery in all but name. When you further consider the massive racial imbalances in the prison population then it takes on a whole new colour (pun intended). Anyone who has any doubt about the veracity of this, google "modern slavery US prisons".

It's a very good thing that prisoners get to work. First of all they need to pay for their imprisonment, not sit on taxpayer shoulders. Secondly, it's much better for prisoners themselves. It's easier to spend the time while working, rather than sitting in the cell all day, time passes faster. And on top of that prisoners learn how to work, and get rid of antisocial behavior by doing so.
You don't need to look far away to see what happens when people don't work. Shitheads sat on their ass doing nothing for a few months due to Covid, now they riot, loot, and destroy property of others due to their frustration.

[tom66]

Prison labourers earn <$2/hour, which means they compete against non-felon employees.   They also incentivise the state to keep prisoners in the cycle, and the private prisons get a kickback.  This creates all the wrong incentives.

Prisoners should be able to work in prison, but they should either be paid the normal minimum wage or the work should be strictly voluntary (i.e. laundry duty, library services within the prison.)

[wraper]

Prisoners should be able to work in prison, but they should either be paid the normal minimum wage

Who in the hell will want such troublesome workforce causing additional expenses and other issues for a normal minimum wage?

or the work should be strictly voluntary (i.e. laundry duty, library services within the prison.)

No it shouldn't. If you committed a crime, deal with it. Prisons are correctional facilities, not leisure parks.

[SiliconWizard]

Prisoners working is probably a good thing indeed, but largely underpaying the work is probably not.
If anyone thinks that actually "pays" for what they cost, just do the maths. It absolutely doesn't AFAIK. You may say it's better than nothing, but, and I'm no prison specialist whatsoever, I think working prisoners actually get paid some "pocket money" when they work (so they can actually buy extra stuff in prison, otherwise they just get the bare minimum?), so this money doesn't even help paying their imprisonment, or if it does, it's probably negligible.