'Master' and 'slave': Tech terms face scrutiny amid anti-racism efforts

[nctnico]

There are many example  of  "soft policy" with the criminals,in example Barcelona.

I don't speak the language and am not very knowledgeable about the region so it's a bit hard for me to tell what's going on there. I'm wondering though how they would deal with the sort of violent, often armed criminals that are common in the USA. Or the repeat offenders, just a few months ago officials were fretting over what to do with a guy in Seattle who has been arrested >70 times for assaulting people and other crimes, they let him out yet again at one point and it was a matter of days before he attacked some random stranger. I'd love it if we didn't need the police but I've come to realize there are a significant number of people who are just determined to be problematic, they offend over and over and over and I have a hard time feeling sympathetic. I feel like my rights as a law-abiding citizen who minds my own business and doesn't go around harassing/attacking/victimizing my fellow citizens ought to be protected over those of a chronic offender who just refuses to be helped. I simply lack the patience to deal with people who refuse to get with the program no matter how many chances and how much help they are given.

Over here we put people which keep causing problems into a psychiatric hospital and get treatment until they are safe to release AFTER they have served their time in prison. Until safe to release may be never...

[coppice]

The people?

Yes, as in, not the government.

Just how many people? What percentage of the population are these people?

Enough people.

Damned authoritarians always love to claim you have enough support to justify your actions, absent of any solid supporting evidence. Even the largest mob in the street is a small part of the population.

I was responding to your claim that it was like in 1984 where the Party kept doing things to subjugate the people. In that book, the government clearly is not of, for, or by the people.

You are the type of person Orwell was criticising in 1984, and you don't even seem to recognise it.

[SkyMaster]

.... Leave the police for the real criminals.)

Please define what a real criminal is.

Is a person physically fighting against his arrest and trying to get the police officer weapon, a real criminal yet? How many seconds the police officer has to decide if the person is a real criminal?

If laws obedient citizens obey to the police, are all the other persons real criminals?


I am asking for a friend.

 

[magic]

As far as i see these "renames" are mainly pushed by those who are descendants of "enslavers nations".
Genius idea, if there is no word, then memory of this events will fade, everyone forgets their ancestors crimes and precise definition, so their dark and unpleasant pages of history are forgotten.
It seems mainly not those who suffered from slavery feel pain, but descendants of those, who commit this crime want to bleach their history.

Trust me, they aren't rational enough to even think about it that way.
But it could be a useful angle to piss 'em off nevertheless

dogs are all one species and there's no biological features or genetic features that allow one to tell breeds of dogs apart, that a particular dog is a particular breed is a subjective human aesthetic judgement

Except for size, strength, character, and all the morphological differences which create the aforementioned aesthetic judgement
And guess what, all of that is down to genetics unless you believe that dogs have souls which even many religions don't believe.
How can you even post such a thing?

[themadhippy]

How about dominatrix  and gimp instead  of master and slave.

[Zero999]

I can understand the black lives matter protests in the US, but the fact it's spread round the world is just silly. I can only speak about the UK.

Apart from the small minority of protesters who were following the rules, wearing masks and making some attempt at social distancing, the rest can fuck right off. They're scumbags, with nothing better to do. A good proportion of them have not being subject to any racism. They're just bored youngsters who are off work/university due to lockdown and have missed socialising with real people. If they really gave a fuck about racism in this county, they would have chosen to protest about something which actually happened in the UK, such as the Windrush scandal a couple of years ago, not wait until now.

All lives matter. If they really cared about black, or anyone's life for that matter, they wouldn't be forming huge crowds, in the middle of a pandemic. Thousands of people have died of COVID-19 and their relatives haven't been allowed to say goodbye, hold their hand as they slip away and give them a proper send off, due to the social distancing restrictions, which have also severely limited numbers of close relatives at funerals. They couldn't give a fuck about their lives, those of the doctors and nurses who've died and the people who they've infected who'll die in coming months. They're all a load of cunts who should be locked up for a long time. At the very least they should lose their furlough payments, be sacked from their jobs/kicked out of university.

Our police force are also a load of wimps. Over the last couple of weeks, they failed to prevent people breaking the law, smashing things up and rioting, because they were worried about being deemed to be racist. This is nothing new, a few years ago, they didn't to deal with paedophile gangs, abusing numerous innocent children, pimping them out as prostitutes. Why did the police not deal with these cunts? Because they were British-Pakistani men and the police didn't want to be seen as racist. On the other hand, they'll stop and search a black person, for no other reason than the colour of their skin! Then there are the numerous politicians who have encouraged people to attend protests, when the government advice is to avoid large crowns are dispersal orders in place to break up groups, who should be fired.

The police force needs to change. There's no point in so-called positive discrimination. We need the best people for the job, whether they be black/white/brown whatever. The only thing which could be done is to encourage under-represented ethnic minorities to join, but the problem is many won't, as they hate the police. We need to end stop and search, which at the moment can be performed with out any good reason. People should only be searched if there's a valid reason to do so. If they're innocent, then there should be a risk the officer gets into trouble for misconduct, depending on the circumstances.

[thinkfat]

Call it anyway you like, as long as I can send out those electrons to work in my electric fields.

[karamba]

I suggest we start with male/female connectors as being sexist.

[Monkeh]

Just as dogs are all one species and there's no biological features or genetic features that allow one to tell breeds of dogs apart

Uhm, so you're suggesting two St. Bernards could just pop out a Chihuahua randomly? Because they won't, and you can tell the difference from their DNA..

[themadhippy]

they failed to prevent people breaking the law, smashing things up

mindless vandalism as boris,ex bullingdon club member,put it

they didn't to deal with paedophile gangs

just like they didnt investigate,hushed up  or  lost the paper work when very prominent white upper class figures were accused.

[Zero999]

they failed to prevent people breaking the law, smashing things up

mindless vandalism as boris,ex bullingdon club member,put it

they didn't to deal with paedophile gangs

just like they didnt investigate,hushed up  or  lost the paper work when very prominent white upper class figures were accused.

Then there was Operation Midland, when the police believed that paedophile Carl Beech, ruining numbers lives.

In an aside, as someone with a biological background, there is no such thing as 'race' objectively. Just as dogs are all one species and there's no biological features or genetic features that allow one to tell breeds of dogs apart, that a particular dog is a particular breed is a subjective human aesthetic judgement, so too the species "human" and its concomitant breeds. Further fuel for the contention that all racism is ultimately stupid.

Race/genetics is mostly bullshit anyway, especially when dealing with people of African origin.

Skin colour is a very small part of the genetic differences between human populations. It depends on sun exposure and vitamin D intake. There are plenty of other adaptations, such as the ability to live at high altitudes and disease resistance.

Africa, being the cradle of humanity has a huge diversity in the genome of humans who live there, much more so than the rest of the world and they're not even the same colour, with those living in the north being a much lighter shade of brown, than the almost jet back of the populations in arid regions, near the equator. Someone from Pakistan is probably genetically more similar to me, a white English man, compared to people from the Ivory Cost vs Zambia.

[tooki]

The people?

Yes, as in, not the government.

Just how many people? What percentage of the population are these people?

Enough people.

Damned authoritarians always love to claim you have enough support to justify your actions, absent of any solid supporting evidence. Even the largest mob in the street is a small part of the population.

I was responding to your claim that it was like in 1984 where the Party kept doing things to subjugate the people. In that book, the government clearly is not of, for, or by the people.

You are the type of person Orwell was criticising in 1984, and you don't even seem to recognise it.

Authoritarian? Me? You clearly don’t know me even one bit.  Did you miss the whole thing about me wanting to dismantle the police? I am someone who has extraordinarily little respect for “authority”, in the sense of deference. I am law abiding, but have mostly contempt for authority. It’s why I suck at office politics and other situations where sucking up is expected.

I think maybe you’re not understanding what authoritarianism is, since you’re also confusing what 1984 was about. At no point have I suggested that the government force people to do anything.

If the people choose to do something because they feel it’s right, and I describe that situation, how is that authoritarian? 

[tooki]

.... Leave the police for the real criminals.)

Please define what a real criminal is.

Is a person physically fighting against his arrest and trying to get the police officer weapon, a real criminal yet? How many seconds the police officer has to decide if the person is a real criminal?

If laws obedient citizens obey to the police, are all the other persons real criminals?


I am asking for a friend.

 

We don’t need police arresting people for jaywalking, selling individual cigarettes, etc. We don’t need police intervening with the mentally ill, who need mental health specialists, not cops. This is all pretty basic stuff...

[Cerebus]

As far as i see these "renames" are mainly pushed by those who are descendants of "enslavers nations".
Genius idea, if there is no word, then memory of this events will fade, everyone forgets their ancestors crimes and precise definition, so their dark and unpleasant pages of history are forgotten.
It seems mainly not those who suffered from slavery feel pain, but descendants of those, who commit this crime want to bleach their history.

Trust me, they aren't rational enough to even think about it that way.
But it could be a useful angle to piss 'em off nevertheless

dogs are all one species and there's no biological features or genetic features that allow one to tell breeds of dogs apart, that a particular dog is a particular breed is a subjective human aesthetic judgement

Except for size, strength, character, and all the morphological differences which create the aforementioned aesthetic judgement
And guess what, all of that is down to genetics unless you believe that dogs have souls which even many religions don't believe.
How can you even post such a thing?

Because it's true - ask any biologist. If they are not one species how come you can interbreed two different breeds of dog and what you get out is .... a dog and no matter how often you breed down that line you keep getting dogs. That is not true for different species. Cross an elephant with a giraffe and you get ... nothing. Even if you use one of the rare species that can interbreed, for example a horse and a donkey you don't get a horse or a donkey, you get a mule or a hinny, which is almost always sterile and cannot breed further. Being able to interbreed and breed true is the classic definition of what makes a species a species (the modern definition of species is slightly more complex and nuanced). Don't facepalm people when you're talking about something that you clearly know nothing about.

[tooki]

Species ≠ race

Nobody is disputing that all dogs are one species, and that all humans are one species.

[SiliconWizard]

Species ≠ race

Nobody is disputing that all dogs are one species, and that all humans are one species.

Yes.

And, I didn't really follow this, but there seems to be some misunderstandings, or at least incomplete knowledge.
Although the usual classification as species defines one as being able to breed, and the frontier between species the unability of interbreeding, this is not completely as clear cut as this.
Some different species can indeed interbreed - this is called hybridisation. We still have examples of that on Earth. Usually between species that are "close enough" that reproduction will work, and will yield individuals that are fully functional. Often, hybrids are indeed sterile, but I don't think it's a general fact. Some hybrids have been known to be able to breed. We are an example of that, as the human species as it is now is now largely thought as being the result of several hybridisations in our past history.

[Cerebus]

Just as dogs are all one species and there's no biological features or genetic features that allow one to tell breeds of dogs apart

Uhm, so you're suggesting two St. Bernards could just pop out a Chihuahua randomly? Because they won't, and you can tell the difference from their DNA..

No, I never said that. They will produce another dog, as will a St Bernard and a Chihuahua and so on. Go and check out what constitutes a species in biology.

As to DNA, FFS you can tell individual dogs apart from DNA; of course you can perform some sort of genetics that might differentiate breeds on what set of what alleles of genes they have, but you'll always find alleles of dog genes, not genes that only appear in lizards or bacteria. The gene that says say hair=long or hair=short  is common to all dogs, so a St Bernard and a Setter will both have the same gene for hair length (long), ditto a doberman and a dalmatian (short). Having DNA that roughly breeds conservatively is a feature of all species - if you have two blue eyed parents you will have blue eyes (if you haven't you're a bastard, were adopted or have a very rare genetic mutation, blue eyes is a recessive trait). That inbred dogs, like inbred villagers all look similar should not be a surprise, neither should the tendency of both groups to suffer genetically linked health problems (Haemophilia in 18th C. German Royals, hip dysplasia in German Shepherds).

It never cease to amaze me how people will sideline a conversation about one thing (race is not a real biological phenomenon, it is a social invention, humans are one species) by picking at an example (dogs are all one species too).

[Monkeh]

Just as dogs are all one species and there's no biological features or genetic features that allow one to tell breeds of dogs apart

Uhm, so you're suggesting two St. Bernards could just pop out a Chihuahua randomly? Because they won't, and you can tell the difference from their DNA..

No, I never said that. They will produce another dog, as will a St Bernard and a Chihuahua and so on. Go and check out what constitutes a species in biology.

And I never said they weren't the same species. Clearly, you have a particular definition of 'genetic features', perhaps you should be more careful with your terminology, because what you said amounts, to the layperson, to "there is nothing in the genetic makeup of a dog to identify its breed".

Sidelining over, better thought out examples please.

[SkyMaster]

We don’t need police arresting people for jaywalking, selling individual cigarettes, etc. We don’t need police intervening with the mentally ill, who need mental health specialists, not cops. This is all pretty basic stuff...

It is pretty basic stuff for arm chair police officer.

 

[DimitriP]

At no point have I suggested that the government force people to do anything.

If the people choose to do something because they feel it’s right, and I describe that situation, how is that authoritarian?

When "the pople" feel something "is right" just around the corner from an election, it will be very hard to convince anyone there isn't a "certain force" pushing them on the streets and fueling the fire. In some cases litteraly.

You are right though in this present situation, it's not the current government that is forcing them to do anything.
It's the hopeful next government pulling the strings. Now. Not last year, not the year before , not during the previous presidency but now. 

Almost as if by miracle the outrage of "the people" was kept in a jar or a Genie bottle to be unleashed at the most usefull moment in time. 

Is it time for this thread to be sent to a mental hospital yet?

[james_s]

We don’t need police arresting people for jaywalking, selling individual cigarettes, etc. We don’t need police intervening with the mentally ill, who need mental health specialists, not cops. This is all pretty basic stuff...

It is pretty basic stuff for arm chair police officer.

 

If you don't want people arrested for jaywalking (does that even happen? I thought it was a ticket) or selling cigarettes (no idea of the laws around those, I don't smoke) don't blame the police, change the laws. The police exist to enforce the laws, they don't write them. Don't shoot the messenger, go and get the message changed. Changes don't happen quickly enough for some people but that's life. The system responds slowly to input by design, like any control loop it has to be critically damped or it slams from one extreme to another which is precisely what we're seeing start to happen in recent years.

[DimitriP]

don't blame the police, change the laws. The police exist to enforce the laws, they don't write them. Don't shoot the messenger, go and get the message changed.

The message cannot be changed.  Each message is crafted to keep people either supportinve or angry, upset and polarized so they can keep supporting and contributing to the change of the message.
About half the people don't like message A and the other half don't like message B,
and round and round we go.
Slaming from one side to the other.

[james_s]

The message cannot be changed.  Each message is crafted to keep people either supportinve or angry, upset and polarized so they can keep supporting and contributing to the change of the message.
About half the people don't like message A and the other half don't like message B,
and round and round we go.
Slaming from one side to the other.

That's not quite what I was referring to. By "message" I meant the law. If you don't like the law then get the law changed, don't blame the police for enforcing the law. Changing the law is not easy and it's not fast, but there is a process by which it to do it and the process works. No matter what is done it's not possible to please everyone, the best we can do is compromise in a way that a majority are content with.

[Jeroen3]

O, 5 new pages overnight. That I can't keep up with.

[tooki]

We don’t need police arresting people for jaywalking, selling individual cigarettes, etc. We don’t need police intervening with the mentally ill, who need mental health specialists, not cops. This is all pretty basic stuff...

It is pretty basic stuff for arm chair police officer.

 

If you don't want people arrested for jaywalking (does that even happen? I thought it was a ticket) or selling cigarettes (no idea of the laws around those, I don't smoke) don't blame the police, change the laws. The police exist to enforce the laws, they don't write them. Don't shoot the messenger, go and get the message changed. Changes don't happen quickly enough for some people but that's life. The system responds slowly to input by design, like any control loop it has to be critically damped or it slams from one extreme to another which is precisely what we're seeing start to happen in recent years.

Well, they end up getting arrested or shot for jaywalking because of the ensuing interaction with the police, not the actual jaywalking itself. Sorry, I wasn’t clear on that.

I do agree on needing to change laws. But I disagree on the police being the sole enforcers of laws. We don’t send police to write parking tickets. We don’t send police to enforce unpaid bills. There are gazillions of laws that are enforced by other means, and what the “defund the police” people are saying is that we need to reduce the police (both in their size, but also in their scope of responsibilities) and provide better ways to enforce the rules that aren’t violent crimes.