Many UK Electronics engineers are doing nothing at work

[Discotech]

But, maybe from an economic point of view, they did the right thing ?

I'm pretty sure there's more to it than just a simple better quote, there's likely some form of unrelated trade deal behind the scenes that brings in more money for the UK

It's why we still send £98million a year to India as a bribe disguised as "aid" in order to get trade deals despite India being rich enough to afford a space program

[Simon]

Yes it is a complicated web of arrangements.

[cdev]

Military exemptions from trading rules may be challenged under a great many conditions. The 'exemptions' that some may think would reliably exempt large swaths of well connected industries could easily come under pressure in an organization such as the WTO if that country has commercialized them or traded with other foreign countries in 'like' services.

A web of international regulations set up strict requirements for government procurements of all kinds, involving trading partners. They may even require that countries privatize all sorts of things thought safe from globalization. 

Many countries are given special status "National Treatment" is one example, which means a country who enjoys this special status in a tradeable sector- their firms must be treated as if they are domestic, to the country, even if they are not. (with certain exceptions, this can be controversial - for example, with regard to whether a nation's domestic wage laws apply to companies whose presence is part of- as its seen as repayment of a sort of debt) a trade agreement)

"Most Favored Nation" is similar.

Countries have not been legally able to only source goods or services locally since before the creation of the WTO (January 1, 1995). A more recent agreement, the AGP or in the US, GPA, attempts to accelerate the process of creating a global common market by mandating e-bidding for goods and services via an e-portal.

These changes are supposed to add trillions to world GNP by reducing the costs of a plethora of newly tradable services, by means of increased competition. In order to bow out of these agreements, which severely restrict the amount of autonomy a nation has in anything involving its governments buying practices, a country would have to leave the WTO (or forgo joining it, but only a few countries have not joined the WTO mostly in the Middle East.) Many countries have to make huge sacrifices upon joining the WTO giving up public services in favor of private for-profit vendors. Oftentimes this has proven to be a huge mistake and the system is under criticism globally as illegitimate, especially by critics in developing countries, which can't afford to give up their social safety nets like the rich countries are demanding they do as a condition of trade. Military and national security is one of the only areas that is exempt from these rules, and even those exemptions rarely succeed if a country has contracted out any "like" services to any other country.

Yes, but America is that big that it can source only internally if it wishes, the UK i suppose may not have all of the desired expertise.

The UK is bigger than France, and a lot bigger than Sweden. Both those countries maintain a high level of autonomy in the supply of their military systems. Even back in the 70s and 80s the biggest push we saw for local supply in UK defence companies was to maintain the ability to sell to governments the US wouldn't let us supply their technology to. I was offered a couple of jobs back then, engineering out US parts to broaden the potential market for a weapon system.

[cdev]

Countries that can be qualified as 'least developed' (i.e. poorest) have a special LDC Services Waiver that lets them charge slightly more and still win bids.

Its the international trade equivalent of the minority and small business set asides that are still being relied upon in the US by many small businesses to steer work their way. (and seem intended to replace them)

But, maybe from an economic point of view, they did the right thing ?

I'm pretty sure there's more to it than just a simple better quote, there's likely some form of unrelated trade deal behind the scenes that brings in more money for the UK

It's why we still send £98million a year to India as a bribe disguised as "aid" in order to get trade deals despite India being rich enough to afford a space program

I think that Western countries shouldn't trade away the bird in the hand (jobs) for the bird in the bush (cheap labor and market access). India has not been growing in terms of key areas that would need to change in order for those trades to be worth it in terms of business. India is still such a backwards country in many ways and the infuriating thing is that its current government seems to want it to remain that way.
You cant have your cake, (low wages and high profits) and eat it too (have a thriving middle class and economic growth as consumers) India would need to invest more in its own peoples futures in a way that I don't see their elites doing, to become a market for western products at rates predicted. That elitism and greed and entitlement radiated by the upper class in India doesn't seem likely to change in the foreseeable future.

[MK14]

But, maybe from an economic point of view, they did the right thing ?

I'm pretty sure there's more to it than just a simple better quote, there's likely some form of unrelated trade deal behind the scenes that brings in more money for the UK

It's why we still send £98million a year to India as a bribe disguised as "aid" in order to get trade deals despite India being rich enough to afford a space program

You're right. Without knowing the real/full facts, it is very easy to be a "back seat driver", and get the wrong end of the stick.

For obvious reasons, they probably can't or won't release, anything like the full story. In-fact, they may need to be quiet about the details, because the bid process needs to have significant elements of secrecy. Otherwise, the bidders could "cheat", and charge higher prices.

[tom66]

There's a culture of presenteeism in the UK -- it's also common in other countries, but particularly strong here.

I've been present for a number of months at my employer while not doing any work. I would not say I was working.  I was mostly browsing the internet and EEVblog, because nothing had been assigned to me, despite me continuously asking for more work to do.

But, I can't go home either.  I have to be in the office.  And attend a meeting once in a while.   I still get paid whether or not I have work assigned, so of course I'll come in, with a 12 mile drive,  even though I have nothing to do.

[MK14]

Countries that can be qualified as 'least developed' (i.e. poorest) have a special LDC Services Waiver that lets them charge slightly more and still win bids.

Its the international trade equivalent of the minority and small business set asides that are still being relied upon in the US by many small businesses to steer work their way. (and seem intended to replace them)

I see. I'd not heard about that, thanks!

It makes a lot of sense. As, it helps weaker partners/countries/businesses, to progress and become bigger and more useful, in the future.

This is beginning to get rather complicated.

I suppose business stuff (and politics), can be harder for people to understand, compared to more down to earth things, like electronics and schematic diagrams.

[Simon]

There's a culture of presenteeism in the UK -- it's also common in other countries, but particularly strong here.

I've been present for a number of months at my employer while not doing any work. I would not say I was working.  I was mostly browsing the internet and EEVblog, because nothing had been assigned to me, despite me continuously asking for more work to do.

But, I can't go home either.  I have to be in the office.  And attend a meeting once in a while.   I still get paid whether or not I have work assigned, so of course I'll come in, with a 12 mile drive,  even though I have nothing to do.

So is this incompetence on your employers part or a conspiracy theory?

[cdev]

I hear a lot about Africa, I think their plan is to sign a lot of deals with Africa -which has the cheapest labor in the world, (whomever does gets the entitlements to win the work under WTO-GATS etc) and an elite who in many cases have been educated at the top schools, who need jobs. So companies in places like India are hoping to be able to broker consultants from African front firms - in essence act as brokers and get in on the ground floor of a huge services explosion as those low cost services are marketed around the world.

This is going to start with the highest value services and work downward. Licensing has to be cross-recognized and 'disciplines on domestic regulation' established in professions to facilitate cross border trade. Any regulations that stand in the way, including visa regulations like have been preventing this in the US will likely be pushed aside one way or another.  So much effort has been put into this that they will just keep rehashing these schemes again and again in one form or another until they do it.

The only alternatives would be a race to the top instead of bottom with rising living and work standards for everybody. (Basically what the middle class in many countries still naively thinks is supposed to happen, and politicians of all kinds feed that hope shamelessly by making the most outrageous promises, promises that clearly violate all the trade rules, as if they didn't exist, just to get elected. Of course they are totally BSing people..)

But anyway, the kinds of changes that people everywhere want conflict directly with capitalism and the global supply chains/comparative advantage / services liberalization agenda, which basically feels entitled to a race to the bottom on wages as automation kicks in, with a massive concentration of wealth upward.

The idea of rising labor standards, shorter work weeks and hours (after all there is less work to do as machines do more and more) they see as an existential threat to their entire means of survival, it scares them all so much that an alliance now clearly exists between groups of oligarchs everywhere.

Much of the talk about trade is best understood as setting up proxy disputes which are really ways of signaling on other disputes they cant discuss publicly because they speak to this sort of global coup in the form of trade agreements (which do an end run around democracy) which the oligarchs everywhere want to keep under the radar.

Because the changes that they want to make threaten the very existence of a middle class. (Which they see as sort of a temporary phenomenon forced on them by the situation that existed in the 20th century when they needed large numbers of highly skilled people to man the labor intensive machines of industry.)

Now they agree that wages should be falling. A situation which would put much more of the worlds wealth into their hands and indeed that is exactly what is happening in a nutshell.

Countries that can be qualified as 'least developed' (i.e. poorest) have a special LDC Services Waiver that lets them charge slightly more and still win bids.

Its the international trade equivalent of the minority and small business set asides that are still being relied upon in the US by many small businesses to steer work their way. (and seem intended to replace them)

I see. I'd not heard about that, thanks!

It makes a lot of sense. As, it helps weaker partners/countries/businesses, to progress and become bigger and more useful, in the future.

This is beginning to get rather complicated.

I suppose business stuff (and politics), can be harder for people to understand, compared to more down to earth things, like electronics and schematic diagrams.

Some want to funnel the jobs to the children of elites in developing countries in order to keep their friendly governments in power. If there aren't enough jobs to go around, they want those jobs to go to the 'right people' whomever they want to get them. Otherwise those people.  would press harder for changes like real democracy, around the world, which they really don't want.

So oligarchs set up a completely amoral 'rules based' trading system to replace all the values shared by western society in a very stealthy way. You can see how stealthy in the EU Bolkelstein Directive, for example, which is a good example of this ideology's sort of Doppelganger or evil twin approach.

Everything it says it is, it pretty much is the opposite. Which is really to say its 'extrinsic fraud'. And everybody who tries to point this out gets attacked from all sides. This is because both right and left wing parties all around the world have been 'captured' at this point by a sort of cult. Thats really what it is, a sort of doomsday cult, which is a very specific thing.

One that wants to tear down the society we had/have and replace it with something else where the wealthy are even more powerful than they are today and the poor are even less powerful, because the vote wont have any meaning in a world where all real change is blocked by entanglements created via democracy superseding 'trade policy'. The international 'trade' aspect is the pretext by which they emasculate the vote and democracy.

[coppice]

There's a culture of presenteeism in the UK -- it's also common in other countries, but particularly strong here.

The culture is so strong in the UK that it amazes me every time I hear of someone allowed to work from home.

[cdev]

Another world is possible, and ironically, it would not just be possible, it would be incredibly productive and wealth enhancing for all humanity.

Because commerce is not a zero sum game.

But I suppose when you're on top its quite possible that you see all change as a threat when it really isn't.

There's a culture of presenteeism in the UK -- it's also common in other countries, but particularly strong here.

The culture is so strong in the UK that it amazes me every time I hear of someone allowed to work from home.

[Simon]

calm down cdev, if this goes political it will be locked.

[IanB]

calm down cdev, if this goes political it will be locked.

When cdev writes such long posts it becomes a significant effort to scroll past them and ignore them 

[MrMobodies]

There's a culture of presenteeism in the UK -- it's also common in other countries, but particularly strong here.

The culture is so strong in the UK that it amazes me every time I hear of someone allowed to work from home.

I know of a rise in sub contractors who have more freedom on where and how they work and are not always checked up on until there is a problem but they have to meet targets and tight deadlines of what is expected of them.

[tom66]

There's a culture of presenteeism in the UK -- it's also common in other countries, but particularly strong here.

I've been present for a number of months at my employer while not doing any work. I would not say I was working.  I was mostly browsing the internet and EEVblog, because nothing had been assigned to me, despite me continuously asking for more work to do.

But, I can't go home either.  I have to be in the office.  And attend a meeting once in a while.   I still get paid whether or not I have work assigned, so of course I'll come in, with a 12 mile drive,  even though I have nothing to do.

So is this incompetence on your employers part or a conspiracy theory?

No conspiracy.  Incompetence, poor planning and poor management.

[Simon]

There's a culture of presenteeism in the UK -- it's also common in other countries, but particularly strong here.

I've been present for a number of months at my employer while not doing any work. I would not say I was working.  I was mostly browsing the internet and EEVblog, because nothing had been assigned to me, despite me continuously asking for more work to do.

But, I can't go home either.  I have to be in the office.  And attend a meeting once in a while.   I still get paid whether or not I have work assigned, so of course I'll come in, with a 12 mile drive,  even though I have nothing to do.

So is this incompetence on your employers part or a conspiracy theory?

No conspiracy.  Incompetence, poor planning and poor management.

So same where i work but the other way around. They live in denial that electrical products now make up a major part of what we supply and attitudes change to suit the moment and given that no one tells anyone what the latest feeling is about things there is no policy as such.

[bd139]

Having worked for no less than 12 companies this year I see two observations:

1. Most companies don’t have any idea what they are doing or where they are going.
2. A lot of companies are just convenient social gatherings for incumbent staff and management haven’t noticed yet.

This leads to people being able to disappear into the noise.

If you’re sitting there doing nothing and not taking initiative, be prepared to not be needed suddenly one day. Many a person has got that surprise I have known. And it has never been me.

[Simon]

Indeed, professional managers that do not actually understand the nitty gritty of their own industry. I usually am the one to try and take initiative but they don't like that either. When I started in the office I was told we have subcontractors for electronics and i was told off when I tried to help. Then I pulled them out of the smelly stuff having let them simmer for a week and my help was gladly accepted. 4 years on I am now designing PCB's and writing the software but still paid like an apprentice with now more work than i can handle and they don't understand how much there is to do.

[bd139]

That's exactly how you win at work.

When you get pissed off with that, tell the next company you signed a salary NDA and take a job for 3x the salary

[Simon]

sadly the lack of qualifications bars me from working anywhere else. We still live in a world where how much you spent being given good marks for writing your name on an exam sheet makes a difference.

[bd139]

Indeed. That is a bugbear of mine. Everyone should hire based on aptitude and capability which rarely correlates to a qualification. Aptitude is something you can only find out through actually working with someone for a bit.

I have fought valiantly against many an HR team on this front to the point of getting rid of a few HR staff for discrimination 

[Ice-Tea]

Everyone should hire based on aptitude and capability...

If only the was some kind of test to determine this. Like, I don't know, an exam or something 

*runs*

[IanMacdonald]

Well, at least they get to do nothing, which is better than spending all day running round the building scribbling dates, times and serial numbers into ledger books. Which seems to be the way things have gotten in big business, thanks to 'accountability' and ass-covering. 

[Simon]

Everyone should hire based on aptitude and capability...

If only the was some kind of test to determine this. Like, I don't know, an exam or something 

*runs*

Sure, give me an IQ test any day. Universities do not quantify your IQ, only your ability to bullshit your way through an exam which in this country seems to amount to being able to write you name and second guess which bit of the poorly written module your poorly written do it at home question is aimed at and copy. Yes in my current HNC course the only way to answer one question was to copy and paste. I gave credit to the course material of course so that i was not accused of plagiarism.

[AndyC_772]

Sure, give me an IQ test any day. Universities do not quantify your IQ, only your ability to bullshit your way through an exam which in this country seems to amount to being able to write you name and second guess which bit of the poorly written module your poorly written do it at home question is aimed at and copy

Which specific universities are you referring to here?

You're certainly not describing any university exam I ever recall. Mine were incredibly demanding of the ability to understand technical questions and solve them by applying cold, hard science in an objectively correct way.