LED Makers' Old Paper Catalogs Research/Scan Help Wanted

[Scotophor]

Hi,

This is a request for review, and perhaps scans, of the Light Bars sections of printed catalogs from Kingbright, SunLED and possibly other LED manufacturers from 1980 or earlier through 2002; pre-1991 preferred. I'm looking for the LED light bar shown as "Version 1" in the image attached, but not "Version 2" which is similar but smaller, and is currently offered by several makers. In Kingbright and SunLED .PDF catalogs from 2003 and later available online, Light Bars are usually combined with Bar Graph Arrays. In some issues Bar Graph Arrays & Light Bars are in their own catalog, sometimes they have their own chapter of a master catalog, and sometimes in master catalogs they're in subsections of Through-Hole Displays (numeric, alphanumeric & dot matrix). I hope this info makes it easier for anyone who has access to any of the catalogs I'm interested in to find the section I want to know about.

Background:
I'm trying to discover the manufacturer and their part number of an old LED light bar that I believe was probably made by Kingbright or SunLED. The reason I think this is, a retail distributor who packaged the LED I'm interested in, Cal West Supply Inc., later replaced that LED with a similar but smaller one, Kingbright # L-835/2YDT (= SunLED # XEUY22D), without changing their retail package part number (CP-60). This later version part is a rectangular light bar with two dice spaced 6 mm center-to-center, 5 mm X 10 mm in frontal dimension. The original version's dice were 7 mm center-to-center, and it was 7 mm X 14 mm in frontal dimension. I believe that a manufacturer such as Kingbright would not change a part's size so significantly without changing their part number. To confirm or refute my hunch, I seek knowledge of old Kingbright and SunLED catalogs, to try to find the part number of the original, larger version. Kingbright was established in 1980 and SunLED was established in 1989. As of early 2005, the Cal West Supply/CAL-PAK LED catalog consisted of over 60 LED styles, of which two were SunLED parts and the remainder were Kingbright. Even the two styles Cal West claimed to have sourced from SunLED, had Kingbright equivalents. The part I'm looking for was first made some time before 1991, and was apparently discontinued some time before 2003. I'm hoping that knowing the part number and manufacturer, if they differ from the modern smaller version, might help me to locate more of these parts.

Other possible makers, IMO less likely to have made the part I'm interested in:
LEDtronics, Litronix, Lumex, Wintech, Dialight, Everlight, Toshiba, Nichia, Stanley, Avago/Hewlett-Packard, Lite-On, General Instrument, Monsanto, Rohm, Siemens, Fairchild, Vishay

Thanks in advance for your help!


EDIT: I will keep this post updated with catalogs that have been checked.
The list of successes--
none yet!


... and failures--
AEG Telefunken Optoelectronic Devices Data Book, 1981/82
Everlight Optoelectronic Components Catalogues, all editions from 2011-2015
Fairchild Full Line Condensed Catalog, 1975, 1978
Fairchild Optoelectronics Data Books, 1978, 1980
Fairchild Semiconductor catalog, Optoelectronics section, 2004
Ferranti Semiconductors Optoelectronic Devices, 1981
General Electric Semiconductor Data Handbook, 1977
General Instrument (Monsanto) Catalogs of Optoelectronic Products, 1980, 1985
Hewlett-Packard Solid State Devices, 1969 (no LEDs)
Hewlett-Packard Solid State Display and Optoelectronics Designers Catalog, 1973
Hewlett-Packard Optoelectronics Designers Catalogs, 1977-1980, 1983, 1986, 1988-1989, 1991-1992, 1993, 1996
Kingbright Catalogs, Light Bars & Bar Graph Arrays, all editions from 2003-2015
Litronix (Siemens) Optoelectronics Catalog, 1982
Monsanto Solid State Optoelectronics Catalog, 1977
Motorola Optoelectronic Data Book, 1981-82 (no LEDs)
Motorola Optoelectronics Device Data DL118 Rev 5 - 1995 (no LEDs)
National Semiconductor Optoelectronics Handbook, 1979
NEC Optoelectronic Products, 1985
ROHM LED data book (Pub. No. 95-041.1), 1995
Siemens Optoelectronics Semiconductors Data Book, 1975/76
SunLED Corporation Optoelectronic Components, 2011-2013
SunLED Optoelectronic Components Catalogue, 2014-2015
Texas Instruments Optoelectronics Data Book, 1983
Toshiba Optoelectronic Semiconductors, 1984
TRW Optron Products Optoelectronics Data Book, 1982 (no LEDs)
Xciton Optoelectronics, 1978, 1983

[Ian.M]

Noone is likely to scan and post 20-30 pages of bulk data unless they are obsessive about LEDs, so you'll just have to trust those of us who have a databook handy to check for likely candidates.  If anyone finds a good one, a one page photo/scan doesn't take long to do/post.

Nothing matching in 1995 ROHM LED data book (Pub. No. 95-041.1).  ROHM call the lightbar section "LED flat displays".

Note the diffuser layer at the face of the CP-60 encapsulation.

[Scotophor]

Thank you for checking!

The Kingbright catalogs' light bars sections are typically much smaller than that, for example the 2003-2004 Light Bars and Bar Graph Arrays chapter is only three pages of light bars and one page of bar graphs -- this is a sales catalog, not a comprehensive data book. You're right, of course, that I don't need scans of everything, so I edited my first post. I'll have to trust anyone who has something to contribute to make the appropriate decision.

Thanks, also, for identifying the alternative terminology found in the Rohm catalog, it might ease the search for some folks.

Yes I did notice the optical diffusion layer at the front of both versions of the CP-60 in the image I posted (made from my own photo), but it didn't seem important to answer my question. In fact I would be just as happy to get the part number for, or stock of, undiffused parts of the same specs. The diffusion layer isn't as visible in the image of version 2 because in that part its bottom transition is indistinct... it sort of "fades out" over about half the height of the package from fully diffuse at the top surface to fully transparent midway down.

[Scotophor]

I found nothing matching my request in:
Litronix (Siemens) Optoelectronics Catalog, 1982
General Instrument (Monsanto) Catalog of Optoelectronics Products, 1980
Hewlett-Packard Optoelectronics Designers Catalog, 1980

[miguelvp]

Other than where I pointed you back in November I got nothing:

Way back machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20050212195105/http://www.hallbar.com/CalPak/square2.html

-------------------
5 x 16mm
QTY: 1 $14.88
QTY: 100 $0.62
-------------------
CP-56   Red Diffused
Light Emitting Diode (LED)
Kingbright Part # L845/3IDT

CP-57   Green Diffused
Light Emitting Diode (LED)5 x 16mm
Kingbright Part # L845/3GDT

-------------------
5 x 10mm
QTY: 1 $10.80
QTY: 100 $0.45
-------------------
CP-58   Red Diffused
Light Emitting Diode (LED)
Kingbright Part # L835-2IDT

CP-59   Green Diffused
Light Emitting Diode (LED)
Kingbright Part # L835/2GDT

CP-60   Yellow Diffused
Light Emitting Diode (LED)
Kingbright Part # L835/2YDT


Searching on the web "l835 5x10":
http://www.reichelt.com/Panel-LEDs/2/index.html?&GROUPID=3015

Other links were found as well, but at least you have the kingbright part numbers now

Edit: farnel has them in europe as well:
http://uk.farnell.com/kingbright/l-835-2gdt/light-bar-green-8mm-x-5mm/dp/2099206

I did try kingbrightusa.com but it's not in their current offers so you got to hunt for distributors that have them

maybe www.findchips.com and www.octoparts.com will give you better results.

http://octopart.com/partsearch#!?q=kingbright%20L-835&start=0&limit=10

http://www.findchips.com/search/L-835%20kingbright/1540-Onlinecomponents.com

Edit again: element 14 (Newark) has some

http://www.newark.com/kingbright/l-835-2ydt/light-bar-yellow-8mm-x-5mm/dp/93T1628?CMP=AFC-OP

Bonanza at Element14 (page 3) page 4 has other ones as well.
They do have inventory (less than 100 each) so unless someone gets them before you do, there should be plenty for your project (I hope)
http://www.newark.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15003&langId=-1&storeId=10194&categoryId=800000005557&mf=100074&pageSize=25&beginIndex=3&showResults=true

[Scotophor]

Thanks for trying, miguelvp. However, those all appear to be references to the current Kingbright product, version 2 in my image in post #1. I'm looking for version 1, which may or may not have been made by Kingbright, and was apparently discontinued over 10 years ago. Even if it was made by Kingbright, I don't know whether it used the same L-835/2YDT part number. I strongly suspect that it did not, because if Kingbright had prior manufacturing customers, the change in size and lead spacing could have severe repercussions.

Since Kingbright's digital catalog offerings currently available online begin with the 2003-2004 edition, and I seek info from earlier editions, that's why I asked for review of paper catalogs rather than internet searches. I'm currently doing online searches myself for digital versions of pre-2003 catalogs from other LED makers, but I really don't expect to have any positive results -- there are just too few old catalogs available online; I've only found four so far that are within my target parameters.

[Scotophor]

More rejects:
Fairchild Optoelectronics Data Book, 1978
Fairchild Semiconductor catalog, Optoelectronics section, 2004
General Instrument (Monsanto) Catalog of Optoelectronics Products, 1985
Hewlett-Packard Solid State Display and Optoelectronics Designers Catalog, 1973
Hewlett-Packard Optoelectronics Designers Catalog, 1978
Motorola Optoelectronics Device Data DL118 Rev 5 - 1995 (no LEDs)
National Semiconductor Optoelectronics Handbook, 1979
NEC Optoelectronic Products, 1985
Texas Instruments Optoelectronics Data Book, 1983
TRW Optron Products Optoelectronics Data Book, 1982 (no LEDs)

[RickBrant]

So this thing is what? Just two LEDs in a common diffuser package? And it has to be the exact size shown in the first example, or you're not interested?

[amyk]

Have you tried actually asking Kingbright about it?

[Scotophor]

So this thing is what? Just two LEDs in a common diffuser package? And it has to be the exact size shown in the first example, or you're not interested?

Yes, and yes. They were used to make a prop from a sci-fi TV show that I want to replicate, so appearance is everything. The LEDs were fully exposed, and the prop was shown from many angles and occasionally in close-up, so substituting those LEDs with something else isn't likely to be satisfactory.

Have you tried actually asking Kingbright about it?

Yes. They didn't reply.

[TerraHertz]

Yes. They were used to make a prop from a sci-fi TV show that I want to replicate, so appearance is everything. The LEDs were fully exposed, and the prop was shown from many angles and occasionally in close-up, so substituting those LEDs with something else isn't likely to be satisfactory.

I don't suppose you'd care to post a link to pics/video? I'm curious.
Have you considered making replica LEDs? Do you want to make just one of the replica props, or mass produce them?

I suspect even if you do find the original manufacturer & part number, you won't find any magical 'new in box' supply source. That's a long time ago,and a part that probably was never made in large quantities.

[Scotophor]

I don't suppose you'd care to post a link to pics/video? I'm curious.
Have you considered making replica LEDs? Do you want to make just one of the replica props, or mass produce them?

I suspect even if you do find the original manufacturer & part number, you won't find any magical 'new in box' supply source. That's a long time ago,and a part that probably was never made in large quantities.

I have considered making replica LEDs and am slowly working toward doing so. The number of prop replicas I make will depend upon my degree of success at obtaining or replicating these LEDs and perhaps a few other LED styles used in the prop. By my count there are six styles of LED that were used to make the props: two which are still reasonably readily available, three which are still available in slightly different form, and these, which are practically nonexistent. I doubt that even given a limitless supply of the correct LEDs that I would make more than a couple dozen replicas of the prop. Each prop needs approximately 54-70 LEDs, depending on the exact version of the prop and styles of LEDs used.

Regarding a 'magical' supply source, I know it's a shot in the dark, but there are many suppliers online who hoard obsolete electronic components. Most have little or no more info about their inventory other than part numbers, so finding an obscure part without that info is an exercise in futility. Maybe finding this part will be impossible even with the part number, but if no one ever tries, we'll never know, right?

Reference images attached. First is a photo of one of the "hero" copies of the prop taken during the show's run. Second is a screenshot from the show. Sharp-eyed viewers may notice slight differences; they are not the same prop.

[TerraHertz]

Intriguing.  I have no idea what show that was, even considering your image file names.

But, in those pics I don't see any of the LEDs you showed? None of the LED blocks have that diffuser layer shown in your earlier pic - or did I miss it?

It all looks like leds embedded in tinted clear epoxy, with lots of thin enamelled wire hand-done interconnects. And bits of colored perspex. Some of the LED blocks you are going to have to make by casting anyway, right?

Seeing long ago conceptions of what future-tech would look like, is always sidesplitting.
Can you imaging trying to shove that thing in your back pocket? Though I suppose at least it wouldn't break in half if you sat on it. Take note, Apple.

[Scotophor]

The show is Quantum Leap. This prop appeared several episodes in to season 3, and was then used through the series finale.

The optical diffusion layer was most likely ground and polished off the LEDs by the prop makers, though there is a possibility that non-diffused versions of some of the LEDs may have been available. The original props did not use any scratch-built cast LEDs; all were commercially produced. I have at least one example of every style.

The character that carried this prop usually carried it in an outside or inside coat pocket. Funny you should mention its durability... actor Dean Stockwell was notorious among the show's crew for breaking the props! In fact, there is some evidence that one particular part of these props was either broken off and left unrepaired, or deliberately omitted due to fragility, on some versions of the prop. Look at the blue perspex/acrylic square at the top left in both the above photos. Adjacent to its lower left corner is a small square clear area. Early versions of the prop had what appears to be half of one of these CP-60 LEDs in that location (not because Dean broke the LED, but because the prop makers chose to modify it). However, most closeups in the show and the one surviving example of the original props that has been exhibited publicly, show no LED there, but a routed channel that would have contained the wiring for one.

[Tomorokoshi]

I did find the Kingbright datasheet of the L-835/2YDT LED, and it seems to be the source of the dimensional drawing of the 5mm x 10mm LED.

Where did the dimensional drawing of the 7mm x 14mm LED come from? The line style is the same as the "new" LED. Any documents associated with that?

I looked up the known Kingbright part number up in a parametric database, and readily found it. I couldn't find anything that matched the larger one.

[Scotophor]

I hacked the L-835/2YDT drawing to match the measurements of the larger part. So no, I don't have any real documents for it.

BTW, I found a few more scanned catalogs online to reject:
Monsanto Solid State Optoelectronics Catalog, 1977
Xciton Optoelectronics, 1978, 1983

[TerraHertz]

The show is Quantum Leap. This prop appeared several episodes in to season 3, and was then used through the series finale.

That explains why I didn't recognize it. Have never seen Quantum Leap.

The diffusion layer was most likely ground and polished off the LEDs by the prop makers, though there is a possibility that non-diffused versions of some of the LEDs may have been available. The original props did not use any scratch-built cast LEDs; all were commercially produced. I have at least one example of every style.

So, even if you find stock of the originals, you're going to have to hand modify each LED?
I think it would be easier to make them from scratch. Standard small 3mm LEDs in clear bodies, held in place in a mold while pouring in tinted epoxy. Make the molds using flexible silicone rubber poured around original LEDs to get the size and surface finish. If you want to make more than a couple it would be vastly simpler to do the back wiring with a PCB, either flexible or standard, if that can be possible without making it look non-authentic. Maybe the PCB could have two-color silkscreen artwork on the front, to make it look like the hand wired stuff?

[Scotophor]

The diffusion layer was most likely ground and polished off the LEDs by the prop makers, though there is a possibility that non-diffused versions of some of the LEDs may have been available. The original props did not use any scratch-built cast LEDs; all were commercially produced. I have at least one example of every style.

So, even if you find stock of the originals, you're going to have to hand modify each LED?
I think it would be easier to make them from scratch. Standard small 3mm LEDs in clear bodies, held in place in a mold while pouring in tinted epoxy. Make the molds using flexible silicone rubber poured around original LEDs to get the size and surface finish.

Easier? I don't think so, I've done a bit of mold making and casting. A minute or two on a disc or belt sander (using an appropriate progression of grits) per LED would be sufficient for grinding and polishing. Another possibility, which was probably done by the original prop makers, would be to assemble the prop first, then grind & polish the whole thing as one unit. This might explain why some of the other LEDs in the original props retain their diffusion layers; they're shorter!

You're very close to my ideas about casting replica LEDs, though. One difference is that I would start with larger LEDs, due to the large lead frame size of the originals. I'd also use LEDs that have epoxy tints as close as possible to the originals, which are quite pale. Then I'd grind their lenses down as small as practical (polishing not needed), so as to minimize visibility of any artifacts from tint, diffusion and/or refractive index mismatches.

If you want to make more than a couple it would be vastly simpler to do the back wiring with a PCB, either flexible or standard, if that can be possible without making it look non-authentic. Maybe the PCB could have two-color silkscreen artwork on the front, to make it look like the hand wired stuff?

Take another look at the photo with the blue background. The prop is largely transparent. I don't know where to get transparent PCBs made.

[amyk]

The... diffusion layer? I don't think polishing that off a LED would leave it functional.

[ResR]

The... diffusion layer? I don't think polishing that off a LED would leave it functional.

Good eye, mate. If you grind the LED that far, then it doesn't work indeed. 
You can polish the epoxy case as far as it doesn't damage the bonding wires. I have filed the 5mm LED to 3x3mm square long time ago and it worked fine after that abuse.

[Scotophor]

Amyk, look at the "Version 1" photo in my image in post #1 and imagine it as a slice of cake. The lighter-colored "frosting" is the diffusion layer. Notice how much clear yellow epoxy there is between that layer and the metal leadframes, where the actual light-emitting chips are. There are extremely thin bonding wires that connect the tops of the chips to the "post" leadframes, but they only loop up to about 1-2 mm above the reflectors. So one can carefully grind down the top of any rigidly-encapsulated LED as far as ~3 mm above the reflector and it will continue to light. What the "beam pattern" will look like after such abuse is another story, but for this prop the pattern is not important; it was only meant to show points of light.

Another batch of catalog rejects:
Fairchild Full Line Condensed Catalog, 1975, 1978
Fairchild Optoelectronics Data Book, 1980
Hewlett-Packard Solid State Devices, 1969 (no LEDs)
Hewlett-Packard Optoelectronics Designers Catalogs, 1977, 1979, 1983

[amyk]

Are you sure the dimensions are exactly 7mm x 14mm? Kingbright has 7.5 x 14 ones.

The lighter-colored "frosting" is the diffusion layer.

That is the encapsulation; usually "diffusion layer" means something on the IC die itself.

[Ian.M]

There is a considerable difference between an optical diffuser layer in the encapsulation and a diffusion layer that is part of semiconductor die!

[Scotophor]

Are you sure the dimensions are exactly 7mm x 14mm? Kingbright has 7.5 x 14 ones.

Do they look like the photo of Version 1 in post #1? No, they don't.

The lighter-colored "frosting" is the diffusion layer.

That is the encapsulation; usually "diffusion layer" means something on the IC die itself.

An LED is not an IC. As Ian.M wrote, there's a difference between optical diffusion and semiconductor diffusion. Sorry I confused you by using a phrase with more than one meaning. Actually, to continue my analogy, the entire slice of "cake" including the frosting, but not including the metal and light-emitting bits inside, comprises the encapsulation. For these LEDs the (optical) diffusion layer is only part of the encapsulation. Most "diffused" LEDs have the diffusion uniformly incorporated throughout the entire encapsulation and lack any distinct "layer", so that may be another reason you were confused.

[TerraHertz]

..making your own...

Easier? I don't think so, I've done a bit of mold making and casting. A minute or two on a disc or belt sander (using an appropriate progression of grits) per LED would be sufficient for grinding and polishing. Another possibility, which was probably done by the original prop makers, would be to assemble the prop first, then grind & polish the whole thing as one unit. This might explain why some of the other LEDs in the original props retain their diffusion layers; they're shorter!

But, with casting, and a sensible jig you can do dozens at once, no further work required.
Anyway, no point arguing that. You're either going to find a supplier, or be forced to make them yourself. Good luck!
Have you considered going someplace like Shenzen, and seeing if you can find a factory to make you a few hundred custom LEDs?

Take another look at the photo with the blue background. The prop is largely transparent. I don't know where to get transparent PCBs made.

Oh yeah, now I notice that. Man, you sure picked something that's going to be a pain in the arse to reproduce, if you want exact reproduction.