Junk Science

[Sionyn]

it amaze me how easily fooled some people are, not this guy though
enjoy

[tyblu]

I'm gonna git a hologram tattoo on my forehead so i can be smarter!

[Simon]

good find, it's a pity about these mumbo jumbo things as they overshadow and cast doubt on so many genuine things

[Mechatrommer]

we call them "medicine seller" and they usually sell on the street. when i was a little kid, i onced become the test subject infront of audiences for the claimed to be "power oil". the seller ask me to lean/bend forward and my hands on my knees, he jump on top of my back and make pulsing pushes downward (like riding a horse) until i fall down, and then he put the "power oil" on the back of my knees and do it again, but this time he just sat steadily on top so i wont fall down. and then he demonstrated the power of his "power oil" to the audiences. they have this "jedi power" of very good communication skill and confidence to only a weak mind will believe them. everytime i saw a "medicine seller", reminds me of that sweet memory, and i never trust them ever since. the end.

ps: so my advice to kiddies, learn physics and science in school very well. so you wont be fooled by fool people.

[mikeselectricstuff]

"Frequency of what?" is exactly the question I want to see asked whenever fraudsters like these, or the hippy-dippy crystal-healing nutjobs start talking about "frequencies" or "vibrations"...

[Sionyn]

indeed you might like this too then

Part One
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7218293233140975017#

Part Two
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4720837385783230047#

[Sionyn]

good news just in time for xmas
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/12/24/power-balance-ordered-to-remove-misleading-statements/

[Ferroto]

My brother watched a presentation about cold fusion on youtube.

It was some guy in a basement with two electrodes in a glass of (heavy water) making an arc. I pointed out that it was a chemical reaction not a fusion reaction that was going on as the Hydrogen and oxygen was being seperated by the current. I also pointed out the law of diminishing returns and explained that the amount of usable energy produced by any given reaction could not exceed the energy used to produce said reaction. After making my point he continued to persist for weeks on end droning on a combination of junk science and actual science that he had no understanding of. I eventually conceded just to make him shut up about it.


The more I read about how companys such as Monster profit off of junk science the more I'm tempted to jump onto the gravy train.

[Longhair]

If anybody has one of those "tests" done, drop the magical object during the press and see what happens.

[qno]

This reminds me of dr. Richard Feinmann's Cargo Cult Science:

In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas--he's the controller--and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land.

The rest of this commencement address given in 1974 is available on the internet.
google for "Richard Feinmann Cargo Cult"

[Simon]

I have to say that although I agree with him on the whole. However there are a few things out there that have scant explanation and are not accepted by the medical world. For example there is a machine called the Skenar that was developed in Russia during the cold war for use in space. It is an advanced tens machine (infact to call it a tens machine is an insult) with feedback that will modify it's output based on the bodies reaction to it so that unlike a tens machine the patient does not become imune to it and the correct type of signal is given to the body according to the ailment.

The important principle about the Skenar is that IT DOES NOT CURE YOU, YOUR OWN IMMUNE SYSTEM DOES. All the skenar does is appropriately trigger the immune system to work for you. Believe it or not after years of drug we have dulled our immune system. Of course if you "decide" that the scenar does not work it won't as it is your own body doing the work.

Due to the threat it could pose to traditional medicine it has only been certified in the UK as a painkilling machine, basically they can be sold and used but no gov body will admit what it can do. Yes you can say that some of it is placebo but that's not all it is at all it is much more.

I've been around one since I was 15 and have seen it do wondrous things, I wonder what Mr. Dawkins would have to say about it though

[Psi]

Personally I think modern science as a whole is a bit arrogant.
There seems to be an assumption that our current level of knowledge is advanced enough to explain away new ideas or approaches to things just because they don't fit into modern science at present.  eg, "Modern science says that X treatment or idea cannot possibly work, so therefore it doesnt work"

I also agree with what Simon said that if you "decide" something isn't going to work then it probably wont, or wont work as well.
Which is an interesting concept, i think it applys to more areas than we think. I do wonder if modern science misses seeing links between things simply because the people looking don't have an open mind.

After all, if you think about "100% pure science" (for lack of a better term), its all about ordered experimentation and logic, there isn't any room for creativity or intuitive leaps. Obviously modern science isn't actually like that, people are creative and people make up the world of modern science adding their own creativity. But if science is based around this pure science idea then its limiting itself quite a bit by denying the value of a creative scientific mind.
All i mean is that i think creativity among other things are needed to make fast scientific progress and currently they doesn't really fit well in the science world which likes everything all logical and mathematical.

[Sionyn]

yep lets not forget the times

when red lead was used to colour sweets
or when radium was sold for its 'powers of rejuvenation'
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/offbeat-news/10-radioactive-products-that-people-actually-used/1388

truely a time when ignorance was bliss

[Mechatrommer]

The important principle about the Skenar is that IT DOES NOT CURE YOU, YOUR OWN IMMUNE SYSTEM DOES. All the skenar does is appropriately trigger the immune system to work for you.

i read this as Skenar DOES CURE YOU. another thing is placebo, some people may say it as a lie, but for me... it is a cure... for some people.

Believe it or not after years of drug we have dulled our immune system. Of course if you "decide" that the scenar does not work it won't as it is your own body doing the work.

drug is a lie. yet it is certified by medical.

All i mean is that i think creativity among other things are needed to make fast scientific progress and currently they doesn't really fit well in the science world which likes everything all logical and mathematical.

let the sci-fi movies do the job so we can enjoy 2in1 purpose (harnessing creativity and enjoying the movie, other than bringging our girlfriend along), not for profit makers that claim its working, which in truth there is no scientific or statistical proof of it.

[Simon]

Drugs can be of help there is no denying that but they are not the only way, usually if I get a headache it is because I am worried about something or upset about something. I don't go and take a pill I try and sort out the problem, either that being physically sorting something or working out in my head what the matter is.

You read correctly Shafri, the scenar in itself does NOT cure you, you immune system does the work but the machine triggers it. Our bodies are rather complex and even science will admit we only know a fraction about how the brain works.

As an example after my operation to rebuilt my lip and open the airways through my pallet I broke out in a mouth full of ulcers, it was so painful that I could not eat or get a good nights sleep, I used the scenar and it eased the pain and allowed me to sleep, the pills I was given were not really helping a lot (and they cost me), or at least were not helping me sleep although probably having a long period effect in healing.

unfortunately it is hard to draw the line between having a little faith and putting stuff to rigorous examination based on the little we know, and the fraudsters and quacks make this task a lot harder. For example the same company that was marketing the skenar in england were also selling (made by another company) a computer program called "computer clear" that was supposed to stop all the bad radiations from computers. Now being of sane mind and technical background I though 1) the actual computer that works at low voltage anyhow and does not make powerful emissions is in a metal earthed case, so I call BS there, 2) the only thing that does cause harm is the CRT monitor but you cannot send any "good stuff" to the monitor to cancel it as that would affect the image unless you used the blank spots when the beam make a return. I wrote all of this to the company and the guy wrote back and said that he was unable to answer my questions that were of too technical a nature and he gave me the address of the program maker so that I could write to them. I did so and got.... NO REPLY, now the company marketing this were the same selling the skenar and many other "alternative stuff" but really the only thing they sold that I ever had faith and well judged trust was the skenar.

It pains me to know that i have a friend who only has the use of one arm: recently the other just went useless, she can feel in it but it is powerless, I could probably treat that or a more competent skenar practitioner could but I'd be worried about getting sued if her family decided I'd done her harm later if things got worse. All because profits get in the way of the medical community actually taking this device and giving it the merit it deserves. I have seen a similar problem cured when my grandmother went deaf in one ear because of a hictus, doctors told her she would never hear from it again. After a treatment with the skenar she was able to hear from it again, this was supposedly unrepairable nerve damage. She was also given 3 months to live due to a heart condition and died 5 years later after having a pacemaker for 1 that prevented the use of the skenar.......

[Mechatrommer]

drug will relax you but not cure you, thats why i call it a lie as a curer. headache will pass by, whether you use drug or not, but for cronic desease, it will get worse and you will not notice it due to the drug (painkiller). dont trust your doctor 100%, they know not everything, but dont deny them either.

[Zero999]

It's true that drugs don't cure you directly but they can help your immune system and body to deal with diseases. For example if you're vomiting all your food and water back up, the doctor may give you an anti-emetic drug to help you keep your food down. Without the drug or being placed on a drip you'll die from dehydration and your body will have no chance in fighting the virus, with it you'll keep your food and water down, giving you a fighting chance. So as far as the patient is concerned the anti-emetic drug is a cure because the feel better after having the injection.

[Simon]

drugs do have their place, to reject them entirely is as bad as those who will only place any merit in drugs

[cybergibbons]

Personally I think modern science as a whole is a bit arrogant.
There seems to be an assumption that our current level of knowledge is advanced enough to explain away new ideas or approaches to things just because they don't fit into modern science at present.  eg, "Modern science says that X treatment or idea cannot possibly work, so therefore it doesnt work"

I also agree with what Simon said that if you "decide" something isn't going to work then it probably wont, or wont work as well.
Which is an interesting concept, i think it applys to more areas than we think. I do wonder if modern science misses seeing links between things simply because the people looking don't have an open mind.

After all, if you think about "100% pure science" (for lack of a better term), its all about ordered experimentation and logic, there isn't any room for creativity or intuitive leaps. Obviously modern science isn't actually like that, people are creative and people make up the world of modern science adding their own creativity. But if science is based around this pure science idea then its limiting itself quite a bit by denying the value of a creative scientific mind.

I think this demonstrates a lack of understanding of what science and the scientific method are. Science doesn't need to explain why or how something happens, it can just show that something does or doesn't happen without attributing any explanation at all. It's got little to do with creativity or leaps - you can test any hypothesis you want, it's just that often people promoting quackery don't want to test them for a reason only known to themselves.

I'd be interested to see a decent study into this scenar thing mentioned by Simon, but it's looking dubious.

[Simon]

I'd be interested to see a decent study into this scenar thing mentioned by Simon, but it's looking dubious.

Then I suggest you ask the powers at be, I'd be only too happy to see a study done, when the machine was designed 20-30 years ago it was a serious matter of Russian military/space program because they did not want to take the weight of lots of pills into space and didn't want to contaminate the water as getting drug chemical out is difficult and in space water is recycled, remember it was cold war time and the aim was to conquer space.

I have seen result of a study they did at the time it released where it was stated the illness, the number of people treated and the proportion cured, improved or not helped at all, over 90% (I think 98-99% but can't remember) benefited from the treatment program, at least 80% were cured, i think cancer maybe was less than 80% but that is hardly surprising.

I'm sure there are many practitioners out there making absurd claims about it and talking a lot of mumbo jumbo to sell it or sessions using it. There are also a number of versions now available. I have in my possession one of the original machine made in Russia and as a family we ended up owning another 3 that were made in the Netherlands by a company called Ritmedic who obtained a license to manufacture them making availability and repair less of a problem, these are a slight upgrade to the original machine although fundamentally the same. Later followed a couple of "self help" versions I never liked as they relied on a few leds to give indication of the treatment instead of the display of figures the original one and it's upgrade had. Now you can get them with bigger displays that are more graphical, I don't know if the program has been changed at all or if it is just "added graphics".

The actual device is quite simple, it relies of 2 atmel MCU's and a handful of discrete parts with a couple of logic gate chips, I would guess that one MCU runs the display and the other generates the signals.

As for me, I've seen it in action for over 10 years and the help and cures it has offered my family cannot be explained away with placebo, of course as it triggers the brain to make you immune system work if you dead set against it working, well: that's you loss

[cybergibbons]

It's an odd one, I'll give you that. I can only find one study that is of very low quality, and I can only infer from the way it is written that the writers were looking for a positive outcome (not saying that the study is biased though). The principle hasn't attracted the same level of dispute as homeopathy, which I find strange as there are a lot of clearly biased (in the positive direction) websites about it.

[Simon]

science is essentially based on observing to start with and of what we don;t know forming theories and then trying to validate those theories with experimentation or further more specific observation

[Simon]

It's an odd one, I'll give you that. I can only find one study that is of very low quality, and I can only infer from the way it is written that the writers were looking for a positive outcome (not saying that the study is biased though). The principle hasn't attracted the same level of dispute as homeopathy, which I find strange as there are a lot of clearly biased (in the positive direction) websites about it.

The main problem is that after the project was abandoned by the Russian government (they wanted to make it water proof that proved hard and then funds were cut) and went commercial it lost full support. The machine I have is actually poorly made for something that cost £1500 in it's day although it has worked fine for 10 years and they have a life expectancy of 4 years. Translation of the documentation and related information has been patchy and of poor quality, the official English manual is not that easy to understand as the interpreter was obviously not fluent in English and so made a bit too much of a direct translation versus a proper interpretation of it. I think for this reason there may now be a fair bit of "cult stuff" out there that is a bit dubious. Being a government thing it was tested by the Russians but because no European country will do a test and validate it it remains in limbo. I wonder how many government ministers in each European country have a lot of interest in pharmaceutical companies, if it became main stream (the actual electronics in it only have a value of about £20 so they could be cheaply mass produced) the drug industry would take a serious hit and that's a fact !

[Psi]

I think this demonstrates a lack of understanding of what science and the scientific method are.

Not really, i understand scientific methods, well.. I understand them enough.  I'm not claiming to be an expert.
I'll try and to put what I was trying to say another way... The framework of modern science is quite slanted towards the left side of the brain, if you look at all the things someone applying a scientific approach might do in their work you can see that a large percentage are left brain functions.  All I'm saying is that I think science should be a balance between the left side and the right side-(which is creative and intuitive). I think the current state of relying more on the left side is resulting in ideas and concepts being rejected, analysed or proved/disproved incorrectly.

Basically, what science should be, and what it is, aren't the same, and it's limiting us.
(in my opinion, obviously your free to disagree)

Science doesn't need to explain why or how something happens, it can just show that something does or doesn't happen without attributing any explanation at all.

Without a little understanding in the particular field of science where the effect lies you can't really design a proper test for it. When these effects lie in a field of science that doesn't exist yet then things get dismissed as being fake just because they fail tests, tests that can't follow any standards for a field of science because it doesn't exist yet.

[Time]

What ideas and concepts are you talking about that are being rejected?  Its not like a bunch of people get together and vote how science works.  This "slant"ing is just part of the natural order of things.  If you think creativity and abstract thinking is not plentiful when talking about the cutting-edge-brink-of-our-knowledge (i.e. theoretical physics) than you simply know nothing about what is cutting-edge-brink-of-our-knowledge.  If there is anything hindering the scientific research community its bureaucratic systems and financial issues.  Its definitely not the mindset of the scientific community.

You guys are throwing around this very generalized term, "science".  Theoretical thinking is much different than the rigorous methodology that is experimentation.