Is the electronics hobby dead?

[Karel]

http://blog.fh-kaernten.at/ingmarsretro/2015/03/07/experimentierkasten-philips-ee/

[FuzzyOnion]

A lot of differing perspectives to digest.  I find those opinions of folks from different countries intriguing.  Growing up in the 1960s (born in the mid 50s) here in the US, I thought there was only one other country - USSR.  I had no idea there were other hobbyists like me elsewhere in the world - such was America at that time.  If you lived in the US and can remember when a 1 year subscription to Popular Electronics cost $3.00, it's clearly a generational thing.  Post WWII advances, booming economy, the space race - science and technology could solve anything.

As a kid I would read anything I could get my hands on that had to do with science and electronics.  I knew a couple of other kids who shared the same appetite.  It seemed almost infectious.  But as with all things, it changed.  One of the things I noticed most was how the level of precision changed.  Using 20% carbon resistors, 25% capacitors , etc just wasn't going to cut it anymore.  Projects got more complex, more precise, often requiring expertise outside of electronics to complete.  As these levels of precision and complexity increased, I found myself less and less engaged.  Surface mount just about killed it for me.  It didn't help that I was getting older and the parts kept getting tinier.

Given all the other changes -economics, education, policies, etc, the face and content of the hobby is entirely different than it was during my early years.  It has become quite wide, but not very deep.  I feel the frustration when trying to help younger folks - I'm always asking myself "how can they not know this?"  But I bite my tongue and press on.  Digging deep was what my generation of tinkers did, but not so much now.  Then again, it was a much smaller field to till.  I think that what we older gents experienced is essentially dead.  It was a time and place that won't be coming around again.  I think we have to realize that a new version of what we did has emerged - perhaps not as fascinating to us as what we did, but at least it still keeps the experimenter spirit alive.

So as an old guy, I will lament - because that what we do.  I still have a stockpile of 7400 TTL and 4000 series CMOS chips and somewhere in the house is a dog-eared copy of Forrest Mims' book - I can relive the glory days if I need too.

Anyway, the best to all and I enjoyed the previous comments.

[julian1]

I'm afraid that this also applies to modern industry. The large electronics/comms company I work for has introduced various H&S rules/restrictions along these lines. Basically, the modern corporate types have jumped on the bandwagon and introduced all kinds of rules and restrictions and I have to be trained for everything. I even had a (compulsory) 30 minute training session showing me how to safely operate the controls on my office chair so that I don't injure myself.

This may seem absurd but engineers are now not supposed to have any sharp objects in their toolkit anymore, (so no knives or scalpels, ESPECIALLY scalpels) and RF/HW engineers are not supposed to have a soldering iron on their workbench anymore. It all has to be carried out at a communal/safe workstation. The idea is that you do your soldering change/repair and then walk back to the bench to test the change. If you want anything cut you either get an approved technician to do it or you go for training and book out the tools to do it. You aren't allowed to keep the sharp tools and nobody is allowed to own or use a regular scalpel anymore. Only special/safe equivalents are allowed and only if you fill in a form and book it out for an allotted timeslot. PCB cleaning products and strong/smelly adhesives are also banned from ownership and this all has to be done by an approved operator using materials locked away in a secure cupboard.

Meanwhile jobs and entire industries get exported to China because of their superior economic  competitiveness. Not to say that all OHS is misplaced effort, but it feels like something has gone wrong with work and business culture.

[Synthetase]

... HIFI stuff ...

Haven't thoroughly read the whole thread, but I can tell you hobby hi-fi is very much alive and kicking. The fundamentals haven't really changed much in a long time and any hobbiest worth his/her salt can, with a relatively modest outlay, produce a hi-fi system that easily eclipses most commercial offerings. In fact, given that I don't have to be commercially competitive, I can over-engineer the crap out of my system (and have) so it will also last longer. No more transistors running at the ragged edge of their ratings because some bean counter told the engineer to scrimp on the heatsink. Extremely low ripple supplies; ultra fast, ultra low distortion opamps if that's ya poison; electronic crossovers with filters perfectly matched to the desired loudspeaker; clipping/distortion indicators (when was the last time you saw one of those on a commercial amp?) - all of these things can be yours.

My system is built using through-hole parts on single sided boards and it sounds better because I made it myself

On a similar note, I built my guitar amplifier and all my effects units. My amplifier cost me a couple of hundred dollars to build and has features you won't see on models costing more than double that (how many cheap amps have Burr Brown opamps in them? ). It will also drive a four ohm load at full volume all day every day without melting.

[strangersound]

One area that still shows promise is the guitar amplifier sector. Guitar tone junkies all pretty much agree that the only way you can get the holy grail of guitar tone is from a hand crafted circuit using point to point wiring and typically tubes (valves). Guitar effects being the same, with 'boutique' products popping up all over the place. It's a seriously growing niche market.

I personally love point to point wiring and find it to be one the most beautiful art forms. Old Hammond organs and the like being examples of craftsmanship that are amazing to look at. Post Apocalyptic Inventor got hold of an old tube Tektronix 551 Dual Beam Oscilloscope and it's innards are incredible. I'm sure a lot of you have seen it, but if not take a look, it's worth your time:

[Red Squirrel]

Wow quite impressive.  Imagine the manual work that went into something like that. 

[strangersound]

Wow quite impressive.  Imagine the manual work that went into something like that.

Yeah...I was expecting to be impressed, but it exceeded any expectations by a long shot. I was also pleased to see it ended up in the hands of somebody that would appreciate it and that it didn't get scrapped, which would have been a travesty. The manual work is totally why I mentioned the old organs. Those things are mind blowing the first time you open one up. 

It's just amazing on both ends. The type of things they accomplished in the old days and the way they do the same things and so much more in unbelievably small footprints. It makes me think of the mechanical computers, which were amazing feats of mechanical engineering. It's like technology is always advancing to catch up with ideas.

Wikipedia has an article about a tide measurement device nicknamed Old Brass Brains, which was in service from 1910 to 1965, when it was replaced with an electronic computer. Never ceases to amaze me the type of things humans can come up with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide-Predicting_Machine_No._2

[Zero999]

No it's not dying, it's just changed.

As others have mentioned, a lot more people are using pre-built modules these days but a decent level of understanding is still required to make something.

People still experiment for educational purpose, for example I've built a discrete op-amp out of BJTs before, even though it has no practical use: even 30 years ago, an EE would have used an op-amp IC for that.

SPICE is good but it has its limitations and people will soon learn the hard way. See attached. Run it through SPICE and it works. Now try building it!

[timb]

In the quoted image it looks like they're trying out some new drugs or something. 

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[nick.theboatman]

So this is an old thread but I just wanted to share...
In the '70s I was a ardent self-taught hobbyist. I made stuff that sometimes worked. Sometimes it went bang You could do that then lol
In the '80s I did a degree in Electronic Engineering and got a 1st for my practical work (ok so I flunked field theory but whatever. Never did like capacitors..)
In the '90s I ran a telecomms company. We built good shit.
In the '00s I ran a renewables business. We needed stuff made. There were millions of ways of doing it and we got bogged down in the decision making.
Now I'm not exactly retired but I'm a volunteer advocate and a boat-builder. I make shit. It makes the welder work again. It makes lights flash and the £2000 compressor that came out of a skip has a new lease of life. I look at the stuff that comes at me via eBay - like computers for £1 and LEDs in packets of 100 for £1 (shit, everything is £1) and I think "so why do I bother making things?"
Because I can. Because it gives leverage again. Because if I didn't we wouldn't have a welder. It gives new options.
Most of all although it is so different to the '70s it still is happening  -  and between us we know how to do it.
Woe betide us for the engineers who fall away and disappear because they think that "doing shit" is  a waste of time. The tools may change (my first oscilloscope had valves - and they weren't small ones either; my logic analyser - agh it cost £1) and the methods of getting hardware are different but so what? They'll change again.

So keep "doing it" - make shit happen !!
I'll just leave this here

[duckduck]

What I've seen in my corner:

I have seen a great deal of growth in hobbyists building vacuum tube guitar amplifiers over the past 10-15 years. There used to just be a few web forums and retailers that cater to this crowd and now there are many. I would say that a significant portion of the builders couldn't write out an equation for Ohm's law, but the more people that pick up a soldering iron, the more that are going to end up reading The Art of Electronics.

My macro prediction:

I think there is much more competition for kids' time nowadays, and I think that a lower percentage of kids in the USA will get into electronics than have in the past, but there will always be those that are compelled to know how things work, and see the possibilities of what they can build using electronics. I had the Radio Shack 200-in-1 electronics kit as a kid and played with it for hours, sitting on my bedroom floor connecting the wires to those annoying little springs. I can see that the good old days are gone, and that we are in the middle of a golden era for a new generation of hobbyists and future EEs. Shenzhen, the internet, and the increasing power of computing available to the average person all conspire to empower those with the thirst for knowledge. Perhaps the USA will fill up with lazy stupid brats that know only XBox, YouTube, and facebook, but I am raising my kid to know better. Everyone on this forum with kids is doing the same. Also, speaking of Shenzhen, there are bound to be millions of Chinese kids that are excited by what's going on there that learn about electronics.

TLDR; I predict that electronics won't be as popular a hobby in the West as it used to be. I predict that the center of the electronics hobby universe will continue to shift East, following electronics manufacturing.

[RJSV]

   I'm betting 'NO', That the hobby activities are not dead, just maybe sometimes grows, changes, shrinks, and then "BAMM..." Someone invents, or discovers some novel sh17t.
  In 1970 some folks provided me with a vacume tube radio, for experimenting with audio. Radio Shack sold me a microphone / pre-made cables, even, shock shock: The store sold me some 'actual' batteries!
I mean, didn't have to lift a finger, to build my own cabinet... Just plug 'n play; not like it was in 1899.
   These days, I buy my parts, mostly, but the information flow going on is more 2-way:
Way more bidirectional flow. Today, I can think and debate, virtually instantly check out the other person's source, and if I'm good can actually effect the other's concept, if correction needed.
So, no, hobby stuff is transformed, improved some, gone bad some, but overall very very better (compared with 1970.

[mindcrime]

I started doing this stuff (hobby electronics) when I was around 10 or so, so I've been at it for about 37 years now. My perspective is that while the nature of the hobby has evolved, it's actually more (much more) vibrant than ever in general. And I would argue that the same factors that make it seem like it's dying to some, are part of what's making it better than ever.

Some thoughts on that:

1. Yes, there's more focus on micro-controllers these days, more software, and less "build everything from NAND gates" type stuff. My feeling: "So what?" The range of capabilities of what you can do today is SO much greater than it was in the 80's when I was a kid. Holy %^^@# what I would have given then for something close to an Arduino Nano 33 IoT. So yeah, the nature of the hobby is changing. I get it. But "adapt and evolve, or get left behind" as far as I'm concerned.

2. Knowledge / information is SO much more available now thanks to the Internet. This very forum we are on? Youtube? Pirate e-book sites from which you can easily download any electronics textbook you ever dreamed of? That is, if you don't just buy it from Amazon legit, which is so much easier than when I was a kid and had to beg my parents to drive me 35 miles to a town big enough to have a bookstore... And what about online learning resources like Coursera, Udacity, EdX, Khan Academy, Udemy, the various Stack Exchange sites (electronics.stackexchange.com is pretty good), various subreddits (/r/electronics, etc.)? And so on...

3. Open source software: there's so much useful software out there now, a much of it is F/OSS. KiCad? Ngspice? Python? Octave? R? Linux? ROS? FreeRTOS?

4. Parts availability: while it's true than when I was a kid we had a Radio Shack store 5 miles away, and now I have nowhere to buy components at retail nearby, I will again say (mostly) "So what?" I can spend 50 bucks on Amazon, or Ebay or Aliexpress and have a mountain of components that I would never have dreamed of having in the past. And there are so many places to find components online - my list of potential shopping sites currently includes:

(yes, I literally keep a list in a text file)

Amazon -
Adafruit -
Jameco -
Sparkfun -
Digikey -
Mouser -
Newark -
SeedStudio -
DFRobot -
Ebay -
Aliexpress -
Futurlec -
RadioShack -
All Electronics -
Alltronics -
Allied Electronics -
Arrow -
RS Electronics -
Northern Tool -
Harbor Freight -
Electronics Goldmine -
Future Electronics -
Makershed -
Information Unlimited -
BG Electronics -
Microcenter -
Best Buy -
Summit Electronics -
Cheapham.com -
Robotshop.com -
Rossen Robotics -
Super Droid Robotics -
Pololu -
Robot Marketplace -
Active Robots -
Servo City -
FANUC America -
Motoman -
Zagros Robotics -

Compared to decades ago, it's trivially easy now for me to jump online and order up components from halfway on the other side of the world, including weird and scary places like Australia! And I have, I believe. Aren't Futurlec headquartered in Australia? Anyway...


5. The growth of "associated" hobbies - 3d printing, drones, robotics, desktop cnc machining, etc. This goes back to the point about how the nature of the hobby has changed, but that's OK. If kids today are hacking on their desktop CNC mill or 3D printer, is that any worse than if they were hacking on a ham radio? I say "no".  Maybe the primary goal for some of these folks isn't "electronics qua electronics", but I don't see that as a problem. If they're drawn to learn some electronics to get their drone working, that's great.

6. China, etc. - alluded to above indirectly, but there's something quite amazing about the availability of tools, parts, test equipment (!), etc. for the prices this stuff is available at, and that's largely driven by Asian manufacturing. And sure, I get that some people resent seeing the Rigol's and Owon's and Siglent's of the world seemingly displace the HP and Tek and Rohde & Schwarz's to some extent. And sure, some of the stuff you buy off of Aliexpress is crap. But on balance, I'll take the ability to buy a cheap but fantastically useful oscilloscope from a company like Rigol.

7. There's probably more that could be said about this, but why  it? I think electronics is thriving, and that the existence of Adafruit, Sparkfun, Seedstudio, etc. alone is pretty good evidence of that. I mean, somebody is buying their stuff.  You just have to look at it from a perspective that the hobby has evolved since some of us where whippersnappers. And that's probably a good thing.

(1) Chemicals and materials are harder to get, more expensive to obtain.

Can't agree. That big bottle of MG Chemicals 99.99% IPA in the lab? The one labeled "for professional use only"? Yeah... when I was coming up, I had nowhere near me to get something like that, and if I had, they wouldn't have sold it to me. Now, I jump on amazon, click a button, and 2 days later it's on my doorstep. Fantastic.

(2) More and more designs require the use of SMD components. That practically means that DIY pcbs are not an option anymore (e.g. throughhole plating and solder mask).

That's a fair point, but you can machine a PCB with a $200 desktop mill that works with SMD components. Or if you can wait a few days to get your board, you can have it made by OSH Park, JLCPCB, etc. Other services that didn't exist in the past, that make this a golden era for hobby electronics in my mind. And soldering? You can often get by with just hot-air, or if you want a reflow oven you can buy a cheap T962 for not a lot of money, or do what I'm doing, and build your own reflow oven from a Black and Decker convection oven.

And nobody with a sane mind would nowadays even think of selling his products (be it kits or assembled boards) due to the endless regulations like CE, WEEE, ROHS and whatnot...

And yet Kickstarter is loaded with stuff you can "buy". Another way to look at it? Here's a business opportunity for some enterprising type - start the "OSH Park of certification and compliance testing". Find a way to make money helping small scale hobbyists get set up for manufacturing.

There is no purpose in building something for yourself (e.g. own power supply) otherwise an educational one. It might easily not even reach the performance of even entry-level products (e.g. homemade DSO).

Again - the nature of the hobby has changed, yes. But why should we care that the "thing to build" is no longer an oscilloscope or power supply? Who mandated that the way things were years ago have to be the way they remain forever? And personally I am building something myself for my lab - a reflow oven. I'm doing it partly for didactic purposes, but based on the experience of a friend of mine, I believe I'll be able to build something that both outperforms something like a T962, and costs me less overall $$$.

And it is not only about the electronics design itself. It is also about the skills and practices applied. E.g.. it becomes more and more difficult and questionable to etch your own boards.

Personally I always thought that at-home board etching was a huge PITA and something to be avoided. I'm glad we live in an era where I can buy a desktop CNC mill for $200 and machine my PCB's that way, or wait a couple of days and have my board fabbed in a professional fab and mailed to me.

[CatalinaWOW]

It is funny watching complaints about the demise of through hole PCBs.  In earlier eras the complaints were:

A.  The demise of making your own inductors, capacitors and resistors.

B.  The demise of breadboards with fahnstock clips and a literal breadboard.

C.  The demise of point to point wiring with terminal strips.

D.  The demise of wire wrap.

In my mind the only way that we have changed from the goldenest age of hobby electronics is that it is now difficult to build common equipment that is cost and performance competitive with what you can purchase.  So the hobby has become about learning, niche applications and systems made of commercial modules with a bit of electronic glue to fasten them together.

Sometimes those niche applications become commercial.  The $20 transistor tester and microVNA being prime examples.

[M0HZH]

We have the most affordable test equipment in history, excellent free software, cheap PCB services, unrestricted access to resources and the largest hobby-oriented communities.

This is the Golden Age of electronics.

[SilverSolder]

I agree with @M0HZH and other posters, This is the golden age of electronics.

To me, a good hobby project is where you make something that you can't just go out and buy - special stuff that is not available for $5 from Asia...

That, and building "test" circuits to learn something from.

When all is said and done, if you think what you're doing is interesting, keep doing it...   if not, why are you doing it? 

[SilverSolder]

(2) More and more designs require the use of SMD components. That practically means that DIY pcbs are not an option anymore (e.g. throughhole plating and solder mask).

That's a fair point, but you can machine a PCB with a $200 desktop mill that works with SMD components. Or if you can wait a few days to get your board, you can have it made by OSH Park, JLCPCB, etc. Other services that didn't exist in the past, that make this a golden era for hobby electronics in my mind. And soldering? You can often get by with just hot-air, or if you want a reflow oven you can buy a cheap T962 for not a lot of money, or do what I'm doing, and build your own reflow oven from a Black and Decker convection oven.
[...]

That is one area where modern electronics is definitely harder to do:  the small size of components makes it harder to work with.

I still hand solder all SMD components, using a fine point iron.  I only start up the hot air station if there is a chip in play that doesn't have exposed leads (there is usually a package available with exposed leads).  Overall, this is time-competitive with other methods unless you have a pick&place machine.   

I'm not saying this is the recommended or best way, I'm saying you don't need special equipment to work with it, if you play your cards wisely - like don't go with smaller than 0603 sized SMT components.

It is still completely realistic to etch your own PCBs at home, using toner transfer or photographic methods.  But why would you bother, unless you are in a hurry, or doing a very large PCB which can still become quite expensive with Osh Park, JLCPCB et al?

[Sal Ammoniac]

(1) Chemicals and materials are harder to get, more expensive to obtain.

Can't agree. That big bottle of MG Chemicals 99.99% IPA in the lab? The one labeled "for professional use only"? Yeah... when I was coming up, I had nowhere near me to get something like that, and if I had, they wouldn't have sold it to me. Now, I jump on amazon, click a button, and 2 days later it's on my doorstep. Fantastic.

There is much truth to the claim that chemicals are harder to get now. Sure, you can order IPA easily, but other chemicals? Not so much. When I was a kid I was interested in chemistry and could go down to the local drug store and buy a wide variety of chemicals. If they didn't have it, they could get it for me. They had no problem selling chemicals to a 12-year-old.

Today the situation is very different. Drug stores still sell IPA, but that's about it. Nearly everything else is off limits. Commercial chemical and scientific suppliers won't sell chemicals to private individuals at all--you have to be a business or an educational institution. These companies assume that private individuals buying this stuff are either terrorists building a bomb, or drug dealers running a meth lab. In some states in the U.S. private individuals can't even buy glassware like beakers and flasks.

[marcelogadotti]

In Brazil the electronics hobby isn't dead. There are a lot of stores selling cheap components, Ham Radio increase the number of licenses and digital modes like DMR and FT8. Near my home and work, there are more than 3 electronics store selling PTH components and it's very easy to buy components from China.

I grew up in a TV repair service and I agree that this area has disappeared, however, the hobby is still very much alive.
Now, I am working with the development of embedded systems, which reduced my interest in the hobby in the free time.

[Alex Eisenhut]

It's certainly true that the old-school "build this two-tone siren with a 556" projects are long gone... and who cares.

OTOH working on zombie 1960s electronics like my Tektronix scope beasts is so much easier now with instant access to all manuals and schematics, and in some cases even engineers that created them.

Seems to me that whatever level you pick, it's still a great time to play around with it.

[mindcrime]

(1) Chemicals and materials are harder to get, more expensive to obtain.

Can't agree. That big bottle of MG Chemicals 99.99% IPA in the lab? The one labeled "for professional use only"? Yeah... when I was coming up, I had nowhere near me to get something like that, and if I had, they wouldn't have sold it to me. Now, I jump on amazon, click a button, and 2 days later it's on my doorstep. Fantastic.

There is much truth to the claim that chemicals are harder to get now. Sure, you can order IPA easily, but other chemicals? Not so much. When I was a kid I was interested in chemistry and could go down to the local drug store and buy a wide variety of chemicals. If they didn't have it, they could get it for me. They had no problem selling chemicals to a 12-year-old.

Today the situation is very different. Drug stores still sell IPA, but that's about it. Nearly everything else is off limits. Commercial chemical and scientific suppliers won't sell chemicals to private individuals at all--you have to be a business or an educational institution. These companies assume that private individuals buying this stuff are either terrorists building a bomb, or drug dealers running a meth lab. In some states in the U.S. private individuals can't even buy glassware like beakers and flasks.

That's a fair point, although it sounds like more of a concern for people practicing "hobby chemistry" than "hobby electronics". Still, you have a point about the terrorism point, and all the "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN???" paranoia. Shit, where I live you're even limited in how much allergy medicine (with pseudoephedrine) you can buy, because the people who make meth (or something) extract the pseudoephedrine from it to use. :-(

All of that said, the flip-side is, if you want to start a company to make the process of buying chemicals easier, it's pretty cheap and easy to start an LLC (at least here in NC, in the US), and getting a business banking account is pretty trivial here as well. One challenge though, is that some places won't ship to an address that's listed as a "residential" address, even if you run your company from home.  Obviously a lot of this stuff will vary from country to country due to differing regulations.

The one other angle on getting chemicals, is that you can sometimes get certain chemicals from China (where else?) that you otherwise couldn't get, by having the seller label them as "research chemicals" (or something like that) which clear customs with less problems (or so I hear). I have not personally tried this, but it's something I've heard a lot about. It seems to be more in the context of "designer drugs", but if you could make the right contact with the chemistry equivalent of Shenzhen, I bet you could get them to sell you just about anything. 

[RichC]

Having recently gotten back into electronics I'm actually quite enjoying making little smt boards at home.

My cheap Chinese cnc will cut 8 mil traces without any problems and will do 6 mil with a little care. I've even done double sided boards on it using small nails for alignment.

For reflow I'm using a little ptc hotplate off ebay. For the price ($10) it's hard to beat and because I bought a DC model I can run it off a bench supply and ramp the temperature up slowly. Feels easier and probably quicker for me than hand soldering.

[Alex Eisenhut]

They had no problem selling chemicals to a 12-year-old.

Same here. I would regularly raid the pharmacy down my street as a kid for all the strike anywhere matches, saltpeter, and sulfur they had and no one raised an eyebrow... Hilarious times!

Now I can't even get a small vial of harmless oxalic acid anymore to clean rust off ceramics, etc

[CatalinaWOW]

They had no problem selling chemicals to a 12-year-old.

Same here. I would regularly raid the pharmacy down my street as a kid for all the strike anywhere matches, saltpeter, and sulfur they had and no one raised an eyebrow... Hilarious times!

Now I can't even get a small vial of harmless oxalic acid anymore to clean rust off ceramics, etc

The rules are sort of random.  Here in the US oxalic acid is hard to get most places, but readily available in hardware and building supply stores.  Other materials show similar foibles.  Hydrochloric acid is hard to find except at pool supply stores. 

[eti]

Not one bit. Ardweeeenos are everywhere, and you can now buy a special device to flash an LED called a Raspberry Pi.