How is Chipageddon affecting you?

[tom66]

Not the case in the UK. If you quote me a price, I place an order, a contract is formed. Even more so if you ack the order...

If it were as you state, all quotes and all purchase orders would have no commercial value.

No, it's not the case in the UK that a contract is formed by a quote alone; it is an Invitation to Treat.  If you accept an order on the basis of a quote, and the order is delivered, the supplier cannot charge more at that point, as that is a satisfied contract and the goods are now in your possession; however, up until that point, they are entitled to say "I want more money" with the remedy being that either party can cancel the order in such an instance.  And the "errors and omissions excepted" statement that practically every retailer includes will cover pricing errors and the like. 

At the end of the day, the distributor has no control over how much Microchip, etc. will charge in the future, so all backorders are made subject to availability and pricing, so they would never enter into an agreement which would guarantee price a year later.

It is possible to enter a contract that is binding upon the seller and buyer, which would be explicitly stated in the terms and conditions.  For instance, a contract relating to the supply of custom made-to-order items would prohibit the buyer from cancelling, as the items cannot be resold.  For construction materials, a contract for delivery might be entered upon which has a penalty for failure to supply within the terms, as it could have a meaningful impact upon project timing.  But these are explicit agreements, and no distributor would include such terms.

A purchase order usually includes additional T's&C's which are agreed between the two companies in advance, for buying from a distributor, these are almost unilaterally on the basis of the distributors terms. Try ordering from Farnell with your own T's&C's... good luck with that.

[peter-h]

it's not the case in the UK that a contract is formed by a quote alone

That bit is true. The rest is more complex.

The big change which the current bubble has brought is the despicable practice I described. It never happened before - and I've been in this business since 1978.

But they don't do it to big customers.

Lots of people have been taking the piss, and they will pay for it. Conversely those who have not will get good business.

[AndyC_772]

Must be Mouser, Farnell or Digikey...

Those are not distis. Those are firms serving hobbyists and prototype builders And at huge markups (often 2x to 3x) over disti pricing.

Compare like-for-like in terms of quantity, and I don't think you'll find too much difference between those companies and the likes of Arrow, Avnet and Future.

The only real difference is that they're better geared up for selling parts in small quantities, and of course they charge a premium for that. I don't blame them for a moment; none of the extra packaging or handling is free.

[AndyC_772]

Lots of people have been taking the piss, and they will pay for it. Conversely those who have not will get good business.

No suppliers have been what I'd call supportive throughout this whole situation, though there are companies *way* higher up my sh*t-list than the likes of Mouser and Digi-key.

[PlainName]

However, they can increase the price prior to delivery.

I think this is incorrect. It has nothing to do with the delivery, which is just them fulfilling their side of the contract. The contract is in place once the buyer has offered to buy the goods, and seller has accepted the payment. This is the main reason why nowadays the payment isn't taken until the goods are shipped. Previously, it would be taken when the buyer checks out, but then some high-profile companies got stiffed by making a pricing mistake, taking £2 for the goods worth £200 and then being obliged to complete the contract. No-one now takes the money until the goods are on the way out the door so they can cancel the sale without penalty if necessary.

I think in Peter's case the vendor is on dodgy ground because he has offered to buy the goods at one price and they have effectively declined and decided he should pay another price. He has not accepted that new price so the goods have been sent on spec and he is perfectly entitled to tell them he hasn't ordered them (he hasn't - he ordered a cheaper product) and that they should arrange collection at their cost. The T&C small print might be a fly in the ointment there - I don't know how that works for B2B but it seems pretty unfair even in that context.

[tom66]

However, they can increase the price prior to delivery.

I think this is incorrect. It has nothing to do with the delivery, which is just them fulfilling their side of the contract. The contract is in place once the buyer has offered to buy the goods, and seller has accepted the payment. This is the main reason why nowadays the payment isn't taken until the goods are shipped. Previously, it would be taken when the buyer checks out, but then some high-profile companies got stiffed by making a pricing mistake, taking £2 for the goods worth £200 and then being obliged to complete the contract. No-one now takes the money until the goods are on the way out the door so they can cancel the sale without penalty if necessary.

I think in Peter's case the vendor is on dodgy ground because he has offered to buy the goods at one price and they have effectively declined and decided he should pay another price. He has not accepted that new price so the goods have been sent on spec and he is perfectly entitled to tell them he hasn't ordered them (he hasn't - he ordered a cheaper product) and that they should arrange collection at their cost. The T&C small print might be a fly in the ointment there - I don't know how that works for B2B but it seems pretty unfair even in that context.

Yes - this is a good point and thanks for clarifying.  The dispute over a price here can only come about for a backorder and it's for that reason that pretty much every disti will not charge your card until despatch of the backorder (accepting payment for the in-stock items does not constitute acceptance of the rest of the order.)  It'd be pretty unusual for an in stock item to result in this type of dispute, but it could happen in the case of a pricing error. 

However, the contract can still be reversed up until the point the goods arrive at the customer's premises though, by cancelling the order and refunding the payment method.  At the point you accept the goods from the courier they enter into your possession and your risk, and you are under no obligation whatsoever to return them or to compensate the seller for a pricing error. 

A similar case has been tested in the past.  If you buy an item from a retail shop, up until the moment you check out, the item is in the store's possession and they are entitled to refuse to sell it to you.  However, once you have purchased the item, it is in your risk.  I believe there has been a legal case as to whether this occurs after you leave the premises of the store or at the moment of payment, I am not sure of the answer there.  But in the case of an online transaction, the contract is for delivery of goods to the customer's premises, and the contract isn't complete until the courier delivers the item.

I do agree that the disti has been naughty in charging more for the goods and still shipping them but I somehow doubt they made no effort at all to contact the customer before doing this.  If they did they are definitely in the wrong and they ought to make this right. 

[peter-h]

The legal situation is country dependent.

AFAIK whether you pay up front or on a credit account makes no difference to the contractual situation although of course if you are a credit customer then it is harder to get stiffed Especially with counterfeit goods!

he has offered to buy the goods at one price and they have effectively declined and decided he should pay another price

They quoted (no terms included - just a .xls attachment), I ordered, then they accepted the order (£12k value; not trivial) and sent through tons of small print (which I didn't read because with a 100M $ company if you argue, they will just tell you to f-off) but which contained a 14 day period during which you can reject their terms (upon which they would obviously back out of the whole thing i.e. you get no chips). Then some months later (the lead time was 12 months on this part) they upped the price a lot, which I rejected, and then some months later they shipped them. I got legal advice which was that we can return them, which we did.

I reckon they are reading EEVBLOG because in the last half an hour I got an email from a director there, offering to reverse everything, credit the excess, credit the interest, and unfreeze the account

So it pays to stand firm on these practices.

Funny thing is that Microchip have been selling this chip in the US for half the price and I bought a load But I am still honouring my original PO at the original price, because that was the contract I entered into. I will just have a lot of stock... enough for a number of years. It is on a LTB so worth either a lot or very little depending on the situation

I had a similar situation about a year ago for 500 x ST 32F417VGT6. Quoted, order placed, after a few months price went up a lot (but the disti failed to send out the email, and an employee made the cardinal error of telling me their email failed to go out ), goods arrived, a much bigger invoice, and after some months a director of the company agreed to revert to the original price. That was a different company; a much smaller UK outfit whose name I also won't mention. They did the right thing but probably only because of the inadvertent disclosure by their employee. OTOH had their email been sent out, I would have also refused the increase, but at a great risk to myself because they were already unobtainable then so they would probably not have delivered them. The company let us have 20 samples (for a new product) but only if we order 500. Those chips have since gone from £5 to about £20 so I am glad I got that stock.

[Nortek-Chris]

By the way, TI parts are returning to the market. No doubt, supply is increasing, but the prices remain relatively high.

Depends what you are looking for. I don't see any sign of LM2673SX-5.0/ NOPB coming into stock anytime soon. Mouser are quoting Feb 2024.

Fortunately I found some at Rochester, but at over 3 times the T.I price.

[peter-h]

I had this with the LM293M-5.0. Unobtainable... So I changed to a little known ST chip L5050STR. ST do loads of obscure chips which are great and cheap; I used one to design out (with much satisfaction) a Maxim chip. Different pinout but I have redesigned most boards to use either of these two. There is also a MIC5201 but that one got hit by the same scramble as the 2936.

Mouser are quoting Feb 2024.

They will - until the moment the overhang collapses

[peter-h]

I find this quite funny

Final-Recipient: rfc822;design-info@analog.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.10
Diagnostic-Code: smtp;550 5.1.10 RESOLVER.ADR.RecipientNotFound; Recipient not found by SMTP address lookup
X-Display-Name: Analog Devices


To: Analog Devices <design-info@analog.com>
Subject: Re: See the latest security, power, and ADC solutions from Analog Devices
From:
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 16:00:57 +0000

[External]

You could try to sort out the crappy outfit called Maxim who you took
over recently. Totally useless arrogant uncontactable lot. No email
contact, no phone contact. Only communicate via support tickets on
their website. Never known such a level of arrogance in 45 years in
this business. And charge silly prices - totally opportunistic and
exploitative. Everybody I know has designed out everything possible
made by Maxim.

[tom66]

Maxim has been one of the best suppliers throughout this shortage!  Certainly not my experience they are uncontactable either.

[AndyC_772]

Agreed, I don't use many Maxim parts, but those I do have been readily available without fail over the last few years - and I can't think of anyone else I can say that about.

Looking you squarely in the eyes again, TI.

[peter-h]

Maxim just upped their prices several times, so that's ok

Maxim has been one of the best suppliers throughout this shortage!  Certainly not my experience they are uncontactable either.

I'd like to have an email address, please I've just checked - all means of contact removed, except website support tickets.

[tom66]

I'd like to have an email address, please I've just checked - all means of contact removed, except website support tickets.

You go through a FAE or representative like everyone else.  We have one we've been in contact with through a main distributor.  Certainly not the most responsive company, but usually get a response back within a week or so.  The best companies to deal with so far have been MaxLinear and MPS, they turn around responses in under a day in some cases.

Email addresses have been removed from many big companies for some time due to spam. 

[peter-h]

I think we have wires crossed. I have a direct account with Maxim. If you buy 10k+ you can get it.

For small volumes you can buy their parts from loads of resellers, sure, but then you aren't talking to Maxim.

Every proper distributor has email contact. That is how I do 99% of purchasing. Email their sales contact, which I have from previous contact. Maxim (Ireland) terminated those.

Buying Maxim parts via e.g. Mouser means you pay 2x more straight away. But Maxim themselves jacked up the prices ~2x when covid came and everyone went crazy hoarding chips.

[ifonlyeverything]

Has anyone seen GD32E505 in LQFP100 or LQFP144 in stock lately? I could have sworn LCSC had some in stock a few months ago, but now they are completely gone.

[AndyC_772]

What do Findchips or Octopart have to say?

[KE5FX]

Octopart deserves a rant thread all its own.  Brokers with random names and equally-random invalid prices have taken the site over, presumably because they can pay for placement in the search results. 

[tom66]

Octopart deserves a rant thread all its own.  Brokers with random names and equally-random invalid prices have taken the site over, presumably because they can pay for placement in the search results. 

I just ignore anything on Octopart that's not a main distributor but yeah, they need some kind of "honesty survey" to see how many of these brokers legitimately have these parts.

[SiliconWizard]

Must be Mouser, Farnell or Digikey...

Those are not distis. Those are firms serving hobbyists and prototype builders And at huge markups (often 2x to 3x) over disti pricing.

Uh yeah, sure.

[Mangozac]

Octopart deserves a rant thread all its own.  Brokers with random names and equally-random invalid prices have taken the site over, presumably because they can pay for placement in the search results. 

I just ignore anything on Octopart that's not a main distributor but yeah, they need some kind of "honesty survey" to see how many of these brokers legitimately have these parts.

Or just some persistent setting to allow you to permanently filter only the sources you want.

[KE5FX]

Or just some persistent setting to allow you to permanently filter only the sources you want.

That's what I asked them for.  Save your bandwidth, they don't care.

[exe]

I'm curious how hard could it be to create an alternative search engine for parts. I'd like to try making that, but that needs either cooperation with distributors (so that they are willing to provide their inventory, say, at least once a day), or find another way to source the data.

An alternative could be to grab data from websites, but that's far less reliable (they can, e.g., block requests).

[AndyC_772]

From speaking to distributors, I'm led to believe that quite a bit of money changes hands each time you click on a link from Findchips to a distributor's listing.

I'm still bemused at how it is that RS seem to have become so bad at showing what they have in stock. When you search even on their own web site, it's impossible to filter by stock level. Yet the information is clearly there - you just have to find the product page for each order code, and only then do you get the little red banner that says "Ha! Fooled you, of course we don't actually have this part!".

[tom66]

I'm still bemused at how it is that RS seem to have become so bad at showing what they have in stock. When you search even on their own web site, it's impossible to filter by stock level. Yet the information is clearly there - you just have to find the product page for each order code, and only then do you get the little red banner that says "Ha! Fooled you, of course we don't actually have this part!".

Even worse;  I'm relatively close to an RS trade counter, yet there is absolutely no way to filter on their websites, "Items at <X> trade counter for collection today".  I was at one of the trade counters, and I went through about 20 parts and they had 1 in stock, but you couldn't tell unless you'd asked the chap there whether they had 123-4567 in stock. 

I'm actually amazed they keep the trade counters open, given I've never seen more than one other car in the car park.  They could definitely make them more useful for same day electronics for nearby assembly houses and R&D and the like, but they don't keep much actual electronic components in stock.