Author Topic: How is Chipageddon affecting you?  (Read 303662 times)

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Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #650 on: March 01, 2022, 06:20:50 am »
The problem with public money is who gets to pick the winners (those who get the public funds) and the losers (those who are deemed unsuitable)?

Well... It's public money, let the public decide, right?

The solution as with almost everything else in the political sphere: greater accountability and transparency.

There don't need to be losers, the world isn't a zero-sum game.  Lord knows the only thing that "trickles down" is sewage.

It's tiresome to see this [zero sum] trotted out by conservatives who think it is, and who think no one deserves any help but what they claw out of the earth themselves, and who think the government is incapable of accountability or transparency -- or of politicians being responsible and honest -- while simultaneously being the ones responsible for those very dysfunctions.

Not trying to cast aspersions, by the way.  Whether or not this was what you're angling at, just to say that these are common beliefs among conservatives generally, not you in particular.  (Or maybe I am; I don't know. One sentence is not usually much of a gauge of ones' beliefs. I'll certainly extend that benefit of a doubt!)

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Offline IDEngineer

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #651 on: March 01, 2022, 07:14:03 am »
There don't need to be losers, the world isn't a zero-sum game.... Not trying to cast aspersions, by the way.  Whether or not this was what you're angling at, just to say that these are common beliefs among conservatives generally, not you in particular.  (Or maybe I am; I don't know. One sentence is not usually much of a gauge of ones' beliefs. I'll certainly extend that benefit of a doubt!)
No offense taken, and I share your observations. I definitely don't subscribe to the zero sum theory, in fact I think history proves that economic leverage can yield a multiplicative effect. It's not guaranteed, of course.

My comments weren't aligned to any particular point of view, but were rather to say that "central planning" of economies is fraught with problems - another lesson taught by history. The first and most obvious is that no matter the intentions/transparency, it's almost impossible to avoid some bias to the allotment of public funds (even if only that some percentages are often diverted to "social balancing" and other off-topic tasks that have very little connection to the actual goal). The second and perhaps even more important problem is that regardless of the presence or absence of bias, predicting which ventures will be successful - especially those involving high technology - is very difficult.

As I referenced earlier in this thread, the (US) government has tried before to weigh in... specifically in the area of semiconductors! - with SEMATECH in the 80's. That's just one easy example, and the only significant difference then to now is that back then it was the growing Japanese dominance of IC fabrication that was used to rationalize the tax dollars. I'll leave it to the reader to see how much real effect it had, and how the "mission" has changed in the meantime. But one could argue that if SEMATECH had been successful we wouldn't be asking the same questions (and proposing the same "solutions") today.

Government has a role to play in large collective efforts. Examples might include the Louisiana Purchase and the Space Program, where the "project" could not jump-start itself and required a huge bolus of investment to get things rolling before the private sector could ramp up. But IC fabrication, while constantly advancing, is pretty much an established industry at this point. It's quite possible to budget and schedule a new fab with reasonable accuracy. It's no longer in the realm of "pushing the science" but simply on-shoring known technology.

The same could be done for metal foundries, many of which closed here in response to increased overseas capacity during the last several decades. I'm sure there are plenty more industries in similar situations, since offshoring isn't unique to semiconductors nor metal fabrication. Should we be on-shoring all those industries too? If there's not enough tax dollars to do all of them, which (entire!) industries does "the public" decide are worthy and which not? Isn't that picking winners and losers? It eventually gets called subsidizing, a dirty word used by those whose pet project/industry/cause isn't similarly funded.

I'm not saying I have a good answer here. Just that historically, trusting politicians of any/all stripes to dole out tax dollars to "select" entities often fails to achieve the stated goals. Except for those fortunate enough to be on the "inside" of such deals while the money keeps flowing, of course. Those folks often walk away having done just fine. And I suspect there is often far fewer than Kevin Bacon's six degrees of separation between them and the politicians who arranged the funding. But perhaps I'm just being cynical.

EDIT: Lest I be branded as only complaining without offering suggestions, how about this. It's a generally accepted economic premise that you get less of those things which are taxed. The corollary is that you get more of those things which are taxed less. If we want more domestic IC fabrication because we deem it in the public interest, how about we specifically exempt it from taxation? If necessary, THAT could be a zero-sum (aka "paygo") tax relationship ("investment" dollars which would have been spent could be made roughly equal to "tax revenue" dollars which instead go uncollected). This removes the politicians from making winner/loser decisions, and instead incentivizes existing entities to favor investing in domestic facilities. Just an idea, one that is much easier and less contentious to implement.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 07:23:21 am by IDEngineer »
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #652 on: March 01, 2022, 11:22:56 am »
As I referenced earlier in this thread, the (US) government has tried before to weigh in... specifically in the area of semiconductors! - with SEMATECH in the 80's. That's just one easy example, and the only significant difference then to now is that back then it was the growing Japanese dominance of IC fabrication that was used to rationalize the tax dollars. I'll leave it to the reader to see how much real effect it had, and how the "mission" has changed in the meantime. But one could argue that if SEMATECH had been successful we wouldn't be asking the same questions (and proposing the same "solutions") today.

I don't know about this situation specifically, but I'd put $5 on it that it got corrupted like most other public programs in the US do -- some combination of, too many hands in the pot, or some kind of unbalanced "public-private partnership" which ends up turning it into a for-profit venture and thus sucking it dry of whatever money it started with.  (If it turns out sustainably profitable, fine, I guess, but if not, liquidate all the assets post-haste, and cut and run before Congress can organize an investigation.  If they even care to.)

That Solyndra thing is kind of an example, IIRC, on the more blatantly exploitative side.  What I've heard about the infamous [housing] "Projects" is very much along these lines: sold to realtors with limited oversight (they were still public projects, so, had some oversight, but not nearly enough), and in the pursuit of profits of course maintenance was the first to go, so of course they turned into dumps, how couldn't they?  Or the perennial barrel of hog, military expenditures.  If it's related to military hardware, you better believe your ass it's split across as many congressional districts as humanly possible.  Who needs a functioning weapons platform? We'll just make the F35 instead, what's the worst that could happen...


Quote
Government has a role to play in large collective efforts. Examples might include the Louisiana Purchase and the Space Program, where the "project" could not jump-start itself and required a huge bolus of investment to get things rolling before the private sector could ramp up. But IC fabrication, while constantly advancing, is pretty much an established industry at this point. It's quite possible to budget and schedule a new fab with reasonable accuracy. It's no longer in the realm of "pushing the science" but simply on-shoring known technology.

One would hope, at least -- but given the above pressures, I would expect it to overrun in the usual way.

I suppose one odd option might be, if in the interests of security, the primary customers pitch in to support such a thing, in a more closed-off sort of way.  Example, maybe the military opens a lab specifically for this purpose, with the aims of developing worker skills, practices and procedures, and a goal of being able to produce almost anything they would need (under suitable license from domestic manufacturers -- which, what they would get in return, besides a 2nd-source fab, or other than license fees, I'm not sure), ramping up production within a reasonable time frame as might be needed.  Maybe it's foolish or redundant, as the military probably wouldn't need very much fab capacity to meet its own demand, and it would just end up a massive waste of money (but, not like they're exactly short in budget).  Maybe even then, in the search to make it reasonably practical, it would end up with too many hands in the pot and again succumb to the usual sorts of corruption (not to mention design-by-committee) fate.

Shrug, Idunno.  Anyway, that's just one example, and like you say, there's a zillion other markets that we'd still have to account for.

I mean, regarding that last bit -- it's a manifest truth these days, that everything and everyone is interconnected.  Local manufacture for any particular sort of thing isn't important; but strategic, economic partners and allies around the world, are paramount.  Investing in those relationships is a far more productive and beneficial strategy, for everyone.

And then, what form that takes, geopolitically speaking -- I have no idea.  It seems we can't all be friends.  To be sure, there is a sliding scale of friendship, economic relationships can be far finer-grained than interpersonal ones I would dare say; even US-Russia trade (until recently) was a thing, limited as it was.  I don't know what specifically it is, about a country's geography, weather, mineral resources, population and politics, that dictates whether they are likely to move one way or another, in terms of global alliances, trade partnerships, or even just democratic vs. autocratic rule.  It very much seems like something governed by a, potentially much simpler differential equation than we might expect given the sheer number of variables and inputs.  But I'm far from a political scientist, as well...


Quote
The same could be done for metal foundries, many of which closed here in response to increased overseas capacity during the last several decades. I'm sure there are plenty more industries in similar situations, since offshoring isn't unique to semiconductors nor metal fabrication. Should we be on-shoring all those industries too? If there's not enough tax dollars to do all of them, which (entire!) industries does "the public" decide are worthy and which not? Isn't that picking winners and losers? It eventually gets called subsidizing, a dirty word used by those whose pet project/industry/cause isn't similarly funded.

Subsidy is a nothingburger, at least as a technical matter, I think; what matters is who holds the cards.  Right now, oil holds the aces, so they get all the subsidy, no naughty words are ever aired about them by the media, and everything else gets demonized.  I don't know how much of that we can change based on public perception, but it's probably a bridge too far to ask for a little critical thought where it comes to the consumption of media.  Improved education would be wonderful, but far too slowly acting to be useful I'm afraid (so, necessary going forward, but not an immediate solution).  It'll take a push from on top, and there's nowhere near enough votes to get enough people in office to be able to do something like that (if they can successfully run at all; progressives have made only minor progress lately -- but some, which is encouraging).


Quote
EDIT: Lest I be branded as only complaining without offering suggestions, how about this. It's a generally accepted economic premise that you get less of those things which are taxed. The corollary is that you get more of those things which are taxed less. If we want more domestic IC fabrication because we deem it in the public interest, how about we specifically exempt it from taxation? If necessary, THAT could be a zero-sum (aka "paygo") tax relationship ("investment" dollars which would have been spent could be made roughly equal to "tax revenue" dollars which instead go uncollected). This removes the politicians from making winner/loser decisions, and instead incentivizes existing entities to favor investing in domestic facilities. Just an idea, one that is much easier and less contentious to implement.

Even that's not quite enough -- as long as you have politicians and their family/friends/cronies sharing knowledge of legislative action, and trading stocks and various other financial incentives, you don't even need direct public dollars as kickbacks.  It runs deep, and alas, I don't know enough about it to begin to strategize ways around it.  But, fortunately that's not my job; I know roughly what outcome I want, we just need a team to come up with a strategy to get there, and then implement it.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline Marco

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #653 on: March 01, 2022, 11:45:19 am »
Do you know how much the big OEMs are paying for their parts?
I suspect the reason they have jumped the queue is because they are willing to pay more.

Not every consumer electronics manufacturer is running losses, so they aren't paying scalper prices.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #654 on: March 01, 2022, 01:02:46 pm »
Do you know how much the big OEMs are paying for their parts?
I suspect the reason they have jumped the queue is because they are willing to pay more.

Not every consumer electronics manufacturer is running losses, so they aren't paying scalper prices.
Exactly. They have a contract, if the ICs are not delivered, lawyers are getting involved.
I told management, that the best way they can help the situations is with better contracts. And stopping with this JIT mentality.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #655 on: March 01, 2022, 01:43:58 pm »
Not every consumer electronics manufacturer is running losses, so they aren't paying scalper prices.

They probably aren't paying $30-40 for STM32's, or whatever the scalper price is... but I'll bet they'll be paying double the normal spot price.

Many electronic products have risen in price due to the high demand and parts shortages. 
 

Offline madires

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #656 on: March 01, 2022, 02:42:56 pm »
You could ask Lefty the Salesman (https://muppet.fandom.com/wiki/Lefty_the_Salesman). ;D I expect things to become even more challenging with the current conflict in Ukraine. For example, Ukraine is the leading producer of neon.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #657 on: March 01, 2022, 07:00:34 pm »
Exactly. They have a contract, if the ICs are not delivered, lawyers are getting involved.
I told management, that the best way they can help the situations is with better contracts. And stopping with this JIT mentality.

But only the really big boys can contract directly with manufacturers, distributors and the people dependent on them get the dregs.

The inertia of the way manufacturers do business with customers of varying size is giving the bigger companies a huge advantage.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #658 on: March 01, 2022, 07:05:19 pm »
I expect things to become even more challenging with the current conflict in Ukraine. For example, Ukraine is the leading producer of neon.

The way Europe is treating the situation now, I could see them happily import Neon after Putler has bombed Ukraine into submission.

If Europe and the US do start really sanctioning natural resources from Putler, neon will be the least of the disruptions.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #659 on: March 01, 2022, 07:24:22 pm »
But only the really big boys can contract directly with manufacturers, distributors and the people dependent on them get the dregs.
That's generally true, but recently we established direct purchasing from Amphenol (connectors) when we learned their minimum order volume was just 500 pieces. Slashed our per-piece cost by ~40% too compared to DigiKey, Mouser, etc. at the same quantities. Granted manufacturers are often 20+ weeks out in scheduling but if you can plan your production (or just stock ahead of time for the $avings) it's well worth investigating a direct relationship. You never know.

I was especially happy about this new purchasing arrangement because I dislike connectors. They're often the single most expensive component on the board and most require manual labor (we don't use a lot of SMT connectors). Anything we can do to save money on connectors is a good move IMHO.
 
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Offline MathWizard

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #660 on: March 02, 2022, 01:47:42 am »
In terms of the GPU market, if GPU's are on 5nm nodes, they are are getting down to the limits of practical sized semi-conductor transistors as we know them, vs the cooling for the macro-sizes they will need. Me , I'd accept a CPU/GPU cooler the size of my desk for gaming, at least in the winter.

IDK what Nvidia and AMD are planning for in 10yrs, but I think they are making high level graphics, more and more a luxury item, that most people can't afford or justify anyways, when u could get a used car for them same.

 

Offline Marco

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #661 on: March 02, 2022, 03:55:29 pm »
That's generally true, but recently we established direct purchasing from Amphenol (connectors) when we learned their minimum order volume was just 500 pieces. Slashed our per-piece cost by ~40% too compared to DigiKey, Mouser, etc. at the same quantities.

Even then, for the really big customers without long term supply contracts who got into trouble there will have been some back and forth planning using rationing. They don't want those customers to go bankrupt, nor do they want to be known as profiteers, so more centralised planning is the solution. For customers of those size, scalpers simply couldn't get in between and at least part of the demand will have short supply times.

Even if they allow smaller orders, there will be no rationing for smaller customers and perhaps not even checking to see if the customer isn't a scalper, just assignment to back of the queue. Near the end of the queue they will ration some dregs to distributors, because they don't really want their small customers to go bankrupt either, but there the scalpers can get in between.

Rationing for the big customers, dog eat dog for the rest. It's a natural consequence of the existing market structure.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #662 on: March 02, 2022, 06:15:55 pm »
These supply "contracts" are a nothingburger. It's just to make life easy for the chip maker to know how much to produce.
NXP did not honour existing (pre-pandemic) supply contracts, then forced customers to take a new contract, upped prices and still won't commit to anything other than "niceness" to supplying automotive MCUs.
Volkswagen, Continental, Bosch etc. were fully ready to sue NXP for their failure to manage their supply chain and fulfill existing contracts. Not sure if it will still happen or not.
Because the available silicon is going somewhere else...
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #663 on: March 02, 2022, 06:21:28 pm »
Volkswagen, Continental, Bosch etc. were fully ready to sue NXP for their failure to manage their supply chain and fulfill existing contracts. Not sure if it will still happen or not.
Probably because they're single source parts. Do they really want to sue the only guy that can make the parts they need? Never forget the Number One Rule:

"A monopoly means never having to say you're sorry."
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #664 on: March 02, 2022, 06:28:16 pm »
There was at least one lawsuit against NXP, but it was denied in a US Federal Court.  The judge accepted NXP's argument that there were no chips to deliver.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/stellantis-supplier-seeks-court-order-compel-chip-supply-jeep-plant-2021-04-16/
 

Offline Marco

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #665 on: March 02, 2022, 06:40:54 pm »
NXP did not honour existing (pre-pandemic) supply contracts, then forced customers to take a new contract, upped prices and still won't commit to anything other than "niceness" to supplying automotive MCUs.

If the car manufacturers had to deal with scalpers for a while they'd appreciate how nice NXP really is to them. Force majeure might have cut into the existing contracts, but they still get best effort treatment ... smaller players don't.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #666 on: March 02, 2022, 07:36:50 pm »
It's ugly with chipmakers playing favorites.
Thousands Of ‘Unfinished’ Ford Bronco Pile Up, Can’t Be Delivered Due To Chip Shortage
Ford's approach is to keep building and advise customers "just 3 more months"... which is nothing in semiconductor fab times.
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #667 on: March 02, 2022, 07:45:59 pm »
"No chips to deliver"... because we already shipped the ones we had to better/more valuable customers, Your Honor.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #668 on: March 02, 2022, 09:04:04 pm »
Having witnessed both sides of the coin, I agree that supply contracts are a nothingburger. Last-minute order cancellations, refusal of delivery, poor strategic planning on high volume parts and so on also plague the manufacturer's side. In times of crisis it is each to its own, unfortunately.
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #669 on: March 02, 2022, 11:07:54 pm »

According to free market hypotheses, it should pay someone to step up to the plate and supply the demand...    Why isn't that happening?
 

Offline IDEngineer

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #670 on: March 02, 2022, 11:44:45 pm »
Because the wavelength of building a new fab is typically longer than the wavelength of these economic cycles.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #671 on: March 03, 2022, 01:29:44 pm »

According to free market hypotheses, it should pay someone to step up to the plate and supply the demand...    Why isn't that happening?

Have you not seen the billions Intel, TSMC, GlobalFoundries etc are throwing into building new fabs?
These things take time...
 

Offline jrs45

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #672 on: March 03, 2022, 03:17:47 pm »

According to free market hypotheses, it should pay someone to step up to the plate and supply the demand...    Why isn't that happening?

They are, the semi manufacturers are investing in new fabs, and expanding capabilities.  It takes a while though, those are big complicated things.

The other free-market event that's happening is that speculators are holding stock and increasing prices to take advantage of scarcity.  However irritating, it's fair game.  And they take a risk that the stock will lose value eventually.

And engineers are redesigning products to accommodate more alternatives, and to be more flexible with supply chain issues.
 

Offline peter-h

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #673 on: March 03, 2022, 03:19:14 pm »
Quote
engineers are redesigning products to accommodate more alternatives

Designing-out anything from Maxim is a good start ;)
Z80 Z180 Z280 Z8 S8 8031 8051 H8/300 H8/500 80x86 90S1200 32F417
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #674 on: March 03, 2022, 03:54:36 pm »
Quote
engineers are redesigning products to accommodate more alternatives

Designing-out anything from Maxim is a good start ;)

That has been the standard advice for my entire career as an EE! And I'm old enough to have seen REM in small clubs.

Though I guess they're part of Analog Devices now so maybe that advice needs to be revisited.
 


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