How is Chipageddon affecting you?

[james_s]

Bans can't work in free societies. Review the 18th Amendment in the USA for a perfect example. Prohibition (the ban of liquor) was backed by a Constitutional Amendment, the strongest expression of law in the United States system of government. Yet all it did was drive the liquor industry underground, create a huge black market, empower and enlarge criminal enterprise, and drive up street violence. It got so bad that another Constitutional Amendment, the 21st, was required to undo the damage.

Similarly, the USA has had an outright ban on most recreational drugs for decades. How's that working out? Drugs seem readily available to those who seek them, and just like Prohibition this "ban" has created a huge international black market and empowered drug cartels and gangs resulting in endless violence and innocent casualities. I note that recently there's been some movement to acknowledge this and ease up on "lightweight" drugs such as marijuana. It's the 18th vs. 21st Amendment all over again.

I'm reminded of this cycle every single time someone wants to "ban" guns in the USA. Abortions bans are another one. Such people are utterly ignorant of history.

When considering the passage of a law, it's important to consider what enforcement would be required to make it work. Bans require enforcement that is not compatible with a free society. This is how otherwise fundamental liberties are swept away under the guise of "security" and "safety". There are a lot of people in USA prisons this very minute due to convenient interpretations of things like anti-drug laws (bans). Is that something people want to perpetuate, and indeed expand, with more "ban in name only" efforts against the boogieman d'jour?

Are periodic government inspections of your computing devices in the name of crypto enforcement really worth it? What sort of enforcement would be required for a gun ban? Or how about - wait for it - an abortion ban?

Freedom or bans: Choose one. But be darned careful of the secondary effects of your choice.

Nonsense. All kinds of things are banned, and I am generally not a proponent of banning things in general because you are absolutely right about the secondary effects, but there are secondary effects both ways. Cryptocurrency is a very new concept and one that adds nothing necessary to society, also it is one with enormous costs. Banning the use of cryptocurrency would be little different than say banning insider trading or banning gambling. The world is not black & white, no society can ever be 100% free because people in general do what is in their own best interest, ignoring any cost to people they don't know and this necessitates some rules. It's always a balance and it's a constant challenge to find that ideal balance between too much freedom and too much restriction.

I see absolutely no value to cryptocurrency though and cannot think of anything legal that an individual can do with it that they couldn't do with existing currency. What secondary effects are you worried about if it was banned? The ability for people to make money gambling on the volatile values? The ability to buy illegal weapons and drugs? The ability to pay ransoms? People are wasting vast resources on this stupid fad and it needs to stop.

[james_s]

Criminal activities include but aren't limited to ordering leaded solder and basic organic reagents or mineral acids, working below whatever the government considers minimum wage this day, bypassing over 100% taxation on vodka and so on. An American might be surprised how widespread criminal activity is in "big government" states

Well, those things are illegal, so yes, people circumventing the laws are by definition criminals. Perhaps a better move would be to change the laws that society finds too restrictive rather than circumvent them. There are a lot of laws on the books I think are stupid, that doesn't mean I think we shouldn't enforce laws.

[IDEngineer]

I see absolutely no value to cryptocurrency though and cannot think of anything legal that an individual can do with it that they couldn't do with existing currency. People are wasting vast resources on this stupid fad and it needs to stop.

Great! Can I pick a loser that gets outlawed too?

I personally think golf courses are "wasting vast resources on this stupid fad and it needs to stop". Acres of prime real estate, literal tons of artificial fertilizer, absolutely enormous amounts of fresh water, etc. "Absolutely no value", people can go for walks in forests or public sidewalks. Utterly unnecessary and we should stop the vast waste of all those resources.

See, the problem is different people have different priorities. I, for one, do not seek to impose my standards on other people. I might inform them of my opinions and my reasons for them, but if I expect to make my own decisions then I must also tolerate others doing the same even if their decisions are different from mine.

Crypto is no different. It's a new thing, in many ways it hasn't found its niche and become integrated into daily life, but I see more evidence of that every day. I was amazed when I saw a Bitcoin ATM in NYC, but then I was gobsmacked by seeing one in Couer d'Alene Idaho! You say it's a "stupid fad" but that's how the IMSAI 8080 and Apple II seemed when they were released too. I'm sure back then someone claimed "having all that private computing power will enable criminal enterprises" but would maybe preventing that be worth missing the electronics industry we live in today?

The point is that we cannot predict how new technologies will work out. Might be a net positive, might be a net negative. What we do know from history is that cavalierly and pre-emptorily picking winners and losers based on OUR definition of what's "right" or "wasteful" or "potentially bad" is a dice roll at best. If we're going to start doing that, there's a VERY long list of things we should ban long before crypto gets anywhere near the top of the list.

Personally, I prefer to watch for extreme exceptions but otherwise let things play out. I openly admit my crystal ball is rather hazy... who are we to decide that crypto, or golf courses, are inherently bad if others wish to pursue them?

[Kleinstein]

There is no need to ban crypto-curencies. One should however stop producing new bit coins or similar at high energy consumption - just stop the rewards or make sure a large part (e.g. 70% range) of the money paid for mined new bitcoins will be taxes. I see no real need for getting more bitcoins - there are plenty already and it seems to work to use small fractions.

[T3sl4co1l]

Relevant:

[NiHaoMike]

I see absolutely no value to cryptocurrency though and cannot think of anything legal that an individual can do with it that they couldn't do with existing currency.

What about make a profit operating equipment at home with minimal manual intervention? Ideally, it would incur either minimal operating costs or it would do something useful to justify it. Swagbucks is an example of the former, Curecoin/Foldingcoin is an example of the latter.

There is no need to ban crypto-curencies. One should however stop producing new bit coins or similar at high energy consumption - just stop the rewards or make sure a large part (e.g. 70% range) of the money paid for mined new bitcoins will be taxes. I see no real need for getting more bitcoins - there are plenty already and it seems to work to use small fractions.

Or make energy costs progressive, in that for a given area, those who use a lot more energy than average get to pay a lot more for their usage. To be more fair, we could apply that only to peak times in order to encourage more use when there would be a surplus. The intended effect is that it will encourage improvements in energy efficiency in general, not just cryptocurrency.

[tszaboo]

I see absolutely no value to cryptocurrency though and cannot think of anything legal that an individual can do with it that they couldn't do with existing currency.

What about make a profit operating equipment at home with minimal manual intervention? Ideally, it would incur either minimal operating costs or it would do something useful to justify it. Swagbucks is an example of the former, Curecoin/Foldingcoin is an example of the latter.

There is no need to ban crypto-curencies. One should however stop producing new bit coins or similar at high energy consumption - just stop the rewards or make sure a large part (e.g. 70% range) of the money paid for mined new bitcoins will be taxes. I see no real need for getting more bitcoins - there are plenty already and it seems to work to use small fractions.

Or make energy costs progressive, in that for a given area, those who use a lot more energy than average get to pay a lot more for their usage. To be more fair, we could apply that only to peak times in order to encourage more use when there would be a surplus. The intended effect is that it will encourage improvements in energy efficiency in general, not just cryptocurrency.

You keep bringing up this shitcoin that you mine with your phone.
The entire concept is bad, and I really dont know why you keep pushing this.
POS cryptos have yearly APR in the range of 5%-120% depending on the network.

The issue with BTC is that it costs around 5000 USD in electricity to mine one BTC, which is traded at 36000 USD at the moment. Its not possible to change the mining rate, its all hardcoded. For the next 4 years, it will be like this, and then it halves the mining rewards, increasing the electricity cost. Its on autopilot, and economic powers who dont care about the environment will keep mining it if it is profitable. 65% of mining is in China.

[NiHaoMike]

You keep bringing up this shitcoin that you mine with your phone.
The entire concept is bad, and I really dont know why you keep pushing this.

It might not be a very good cryptocurrency, but it makes a lot of profit for the energy used even though the difficulty is pretty high at this point. It uses about 22c of electricity per month to make about $10 per month, or about 45 times. That means it's over 6 times as efficient as mining Bitcoin and doesn't need hardware specifically designed for mining. And that it's profitable at a small scale means it's very easy to power from solar.

I'm going to keep mining it until it no longer makes enough to make it worthwhile to run.

[magic]

I see absolutely no value to cryptocurrency though and cannot think of anything legal that an individual can do with it that they couldn't do with existing currency.

Ordering a bag of 2N3904 online without a dozen companies which are not parties to the trade needing to know about it.

What secondary effects are you worried about if it was banned? The ability for people to make money gambling on the volatile values? The ability to buy illegal weapons and drugs? The ability to pay ransoms? People are wasting vast resources on this stupid fad and it needs to stop.

The whack-a-mole war against something that will continue existing because it serves a useful purpose, including but not limited to trade of undocumented firearms or simply paying for undocumented labor if governments continue their push to eliminate cash. I would like to remind you that you are writing this post from a country which would collapse economically if the undocumented labor of the estimated 3% of its undocumented population disappeared overnight

In Poland, between 10% and 20% of the GDP is estimated to be produced by undocumented economy. Those things are huge

[SilverSolder]

[...] if governments continue their push to eliminate cash. [...]

They can't/won't do that, because "cash substitutes" will pop up in their place...  anything from vouchers to goods/services being bartered...   governments would have even less control than they do with cash!

[nctnico]

[...] if governments continue their push to eliminate cash. [...]

They can't/won't do that, because "cash substitutes" will pop up in their place...  anything from vouchers to goods/services being bartered...   governments would have even less control than they do with cash!

Vouchers? In which cave do you live? Never heard of a bank account and NFC payments? I rarely use cash. Not even to pay to use the toilet at a gas station.

[tszaboo]

I see absolutely no value to cryptocurrency though and cannot think of anything legal that an individual can do with it that they couldn't do with existing currency.

Ordering a bag of 2N3904 online without a dozen companies which are not parties to the trade needing to know about it.

What secondary effects are you worried about if it was banned? The ability for people to make money gambling on the volatile values? The ability to buy illegal weapons and drugs? The ability to pay ransoms? People are wasting vast resources on this stupid fad and it needs to stop.

The whack-a-mole war against something that will continue existing because it serves a useful purpose, including but not limited to trade of undocumented firearms or simply paying for undocumented labor if governments continue their push to eliminate cash. I would like to remind you that you are writing this post from a country which would collapse economically if the undocumented labor of the estimated 3% of its undocumented population disappeared overnight

In Poland, between 10% and 20% of the GDP is estimated to be produced by undocumented economy. Those things are huge

Nah, cripto hasn't been about illegal activities for a long time. I mean sure, in 2015 one of the main application was buying weed (which they sell two corners away in the shops here, legally, if anyone wants it), black market and that sort of things. 2017-2018 was about financial manipulations already, capital gains and a big bubble with not much behind it. 2021 is different, there are finiancial products behind it, lending, trading, digital arts, digital trustless notaries, and payment systems. I can order a Visa card that pays from a crypto wallet, and I can pay taxes after all this. Banks will soon look like the post offices today, after the email was invented.

[bdunham7]

Crypto is no different. It's a new thing, in many ways it hasn't found its niche and become integrated into daily life, but I see more evidence of that every day.

Oh but it is different.  It's primary functions today are illicit criminal transactions and unregulated, manipulable speculation.  I mined and used Bitcoin (and others) in the early days and I thought it was interesting, but IMO it has metastasized into something else.  Governments will catch up and are unlikely to let it threaten their fiat currencies or their tax base.  Already the IRS requires you to report your cryptocurrency holdings just like they do a foreign bank account. 

[IDEngineer]

Already the IRS requires you to report your cryptocurrency holdings just like they do a foreign bank account.

Tax authorities recognizing and trying to tax a thing is one indication (admission?) that they expect that thing is here to stay.

[nctnico]

Already the IRS requires you to report your cryptocurrency holdings just like they do a foreign bank account.

Tax authorities recognizing and trying to tax a thing is one indication (admission?) that they expect that thing is here to stay.

No. Just collecting taxes on valuable assets like shares. Which can also drop to a value of zero but that isn't the tax collector's concern.

[bdunham7]

Tax authorities recognizing and trying to tax a thing is one indication (admission?) that they expect that thing is here to stay.

No, they are acknowledging that it is here now and the want to tax people's profits and prevent money laundering.  If I had a billion dollars worth of gold certificates in some new bank in Somalia, they'd want to know about it.  They certainly aren't rendering any opinion about the stability of my certificates or the safety of the Somalian bank--they just want their money.  Current tax law would require paying income tax of one sort or another--typically capital gains--on the sale of any Bitcoin.  That is not new and you could be prosecuted for not reporting those gains at any point in Bitcoin history. What is new is the specific reporting requirements.  And what is going to eventually cause some trouble is that transferring crypto from one form to another--a favorite money-laundering technique--is a taxable and reportable event--and always has been, in theory.

I predict that what will happen is that just like cash and the $10,000 reporting threshold, they will go after the medium and big fish and leave the illegal immigrant gardeners and cleaning ladies alone.  If you have 1000BTC in Coinbase and it has been there for 5 years or was transferred in from you own wallet, you may now have to explain where you got it. 

[duckduck]

I personally think golf courses are "wasting vast resources on this stupid fad and it needs to stop". Acres of prime real estate, literal tons of artificial fertilizer, absolutely enormous amounts of fresh water, etc. "Absolutely no value", people can go for walks in forests or public sidewalks. Utterly unnecessary and we should stop the vast waste of all those resources.

I strongly agree. Like I always say, "a golf course is a waste of a perfectly good motocross track." 

[james_s]

I personally think golf courses are "wasting vast resources on this stupid fad and it needs to stop". Acres of prime real estate, literal tons of artificial fertilizer, absolutely enormous amounts of fresh water, etc. "Absolutely no value", people can go for walks in forests or public sidewalks. Utterly unnecessary and we should stop the vast waste of all those resources.

I strongly agree. Like I always say, "a golf course is a waste of a perfectly good motocross track." 

Nothing is wasted, the land is still there, it's just used for something else for the time being, and in most cases eventually it probably will turn into housing as soon as economics dictate so. You can't say that about fossil fuels that are burned up to doing useless busy work. Those are gone, that resource that took millions of years to create is literally up in smoke, 100 or 1,000 years in the future it will still be gone, and people will look back and wonder what the hell anyone was thinking.

I'm not a golfer, but I'd much rather live next to a golf course than a bunch of houses or condos and all the crowding they bring. It's quiet and nice green open space is pleasant to be around.

[SilverSolder]

[...] if governments continue their push to eliminate cash. [...]

They can't/won't do that, because "cash substitutes" will pop up in their place...  anything from vouchers to goods/services being bartered...   governments would have even less control than they do with cash!

Vouchers? In which cave do you live? Never heard of a bank account and NFC payments? I rarely use cash. Not even to pay to use the toilet at a gas station.

What do you use to pay a prostitute or a drug dealer?

[nctnico]

[...] if governments continue their push to eliminate cash. [...]

They can't/won't do that, because "cash substitutes" will pop up in their place...  anything from vouchers to goods/services being bartered...   governments would have even less control than they do with cash!

Vouchers? In which cave do you live? Never heard of a bank account and NFC payments? I rarely use cash. Not even to pay to use the toilet at a gas station.

What do you use to pay a prostitute or a drug dealer?

They both likely have a NFC payment device because most people don't carry cash around here but I'm not going to check for you. Feel free to visit Amsterdam and try it yourself.

[IDEngineer]

What do you use to pay a prostitute or a drug dealer?

I'm so good, they pay me. 

[SilverSolder]

[...] if governments continue their push to eliminate cash. [...]

They can't/won't do that, because "cash substitutes" will pop up in their place...  anything from vouchers to goods/services being bartered...   governments would have even less control than they do with cash!

Vouchers? In which cave do you live? Never heard of a bank account and NFC payments? I rarely use cash. Not even to pay to use the toilet at a gas station.

What do you use to pay a prostitute or a drug dealer?

They both likely have a NFC payment device because most people don't carry cash around here but I'm not going to check for you. Feel free to visit Amsterdam and try it yourself.

We do have them locally, it is a fairly well established profession in most countries...   Here, they only accept cash...    Considering that in 70% of households it is the woman that manages the finances, most men probably wouldn't want "Special Massage Treatment" as a line item on their credit card statement!   

Maybe the industry has found workarounds for this, like charging for a car wash or other service, with extra benefits?

(Note, for the avoidance of doubt, I prefer female company that takes their payment in classier ways in the form of love and affection, dinners, movies, that kind of thing!)

[NiHaoMike]

You can't say that about fossil fuels that are burned up to doing useless busy work. Those are gone, that resource that took millions of years to create is literally up in smoke, 100 or 1,000 years in the future it will still be gone, and people will look back and wonder what the hell anyone was thinking.

In other words, stuff like auto racing is just a waste of energy if the rules only allow the use of outdated technology or otherwise prevents innovation. But if the rules instead encourage innovation, it wouldn't be as much of a waste anymore. Hence why I push for useful work altcoins like Curecoin and Foldingcoin - they use energy just like Bitcoin does, but the primary purpose of that energy use is solving real problems like cancer and even COVID-19.

[tszaboo]

What do you use to pay a prostitute or a drug dealer?

EUR, I would imagine. They would give you a invoice (if you ask for it) and pay taxes.

[SilverSolder]

What do you use to pay a prostitute or a drug dealer?

EUR, I would imagine. They would give you a invoice (if you ask for it) and pay taxes.

Not all countries are equally relaxed about the fact that we are mammals...