Author Topic: How is Chipageddon affecting you?  (Read 303501 times)

0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline YurkshireLad

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 365
  • Country: ca
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #500 on: January 28, 2022, 01:33:26 pm »
I wanted to pick up some ICS, specifically ATMega328Ps and perhaps ATTiny85s. They're either out of stock or crazy expensive compared to days of old. One site (I forget which site and which IC) was showing a lead time of 6+ months before they would be available. I should have picked them up a year ago when I started learning about them. Oh well.  :-//
 

Offline jrs45

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Country: us
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #501 on: January 28, 2022, 02:00:04 pm »
Analog Devices is specifying 2-year leadtimes on new orders.  And orders that were made 6 months ago, and promised delivery around now, were also pushed out, probably because they're selling them to their large customers instead.  Insanity.  We're strongly considering abandoning them for this nonsense.
 

Offline voltsandjolts

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2449
  • Country: gb
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #502 on: January 28, 2022, 02:00:29 pm »
Mouser, at least put an upper limit on some of their lines, in order to stop one PO buying up all of the stock.

Yes, I noticed that too.
It has the side effect of Mouser always charging low-quantity pricing and making more bucks out of us. To be fair to them, at least they aren't charging 6x normal prices. But if (like me) the scammers can just place multiple orders, then does it actually help this crappy situation?

I bet there is just a few of dozen well-funded scammers causing most of the damage here. I hope they burn.
 

Offline Alti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 404
  • Country: 00
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #503 on: January 28, 2022, 02:20:00 pm »
Interestingly, this whole topic represents only one side of the Chipageddon theatre, a passive audience.
But where are the actors, where are the those who pull the strings?
I'd like to listen to those who benefit from whole shortage situation.
The traders, scammers, whatever you people call them?

The speculators of silicon, where are you?
How is Chipageddon affecting you, I ask?
 

Offline b2theory

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #504 on: January 28, 2022, 03:46:58 pm »
Does anyone know any reputable brokers/resellers? Google searches on this topic make me very suspicious.
 

Offline Kasper

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 777
  • Country: ca
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #505 on: January 28, 2022, 03:59:26 pm »
Analog Devices is specifying 2-year leadtimes on new orders.  And orders that were made 6 months ago, and promised delivery around now, were also pushed out, probably because they're selling them to their large customers instead.  Insanity.  We're strongly considering abandoning them for this nonsense.

If manufacturers are being overly optimistic with their lead times maybe we should be overly optimistic with our EAU (estimated annual use). 

Normally manufacturers back off after I answer their question about EAU.  One time, my boss wanted prices for extra large quantities for projections.  The manufacturer was very friendly, offering FAEs to help with design and test dev kits for us. That lasted until they had a conversation with my boss and now I think we're back on their DNA (do not answer) list or worse.
 
The following users thanked this post: cdev, schmitt trigger

Offline b2theory

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #506 on: January 28, 2022, 04:18:04 pm »

Magically there always seems to be tens of thousands of stock on Winsource and similar sites though. Provided of course, you are able to budget for six times the normal price!.


Is Winsource reliable? We have a few parts where we kill to pay scalper's rates.
 

Offline jrs45

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 99
  • Country: us
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #507 on: January 28, 2022, 04:54:26 pm »
Is Winsource reliable? We have a few parts where we kill to pay scalper's rates.

I've had good success with Winsource, and from what I've been able to find out, they are legit overall.
 
The following users thanked this post: b2theory

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8550
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #508 on: January 28, 2022, 05:00:36 pm »
one of the untold reasons is the endless price pressure on parts and the dropping of orders at zero notice.

buyer negotiates hard to get cut-throat pricing from manufacturer
buyer loses his customer , or decreased product sales , jiffy market situation.
buyer panics , cancels running order.

the problem is that, in the semiconductor world , by the time the cancellation goes in, you have oodles of material in the line. a wafer takes 4 to 5 weeks from entering the fab to coming out ! so the manufacturer needs ot decide : do i ditch 4 weeks of material , or do i keep fabbing it hoping it will sell. or, do i ditch and shove something else in the line ( knowing that too will take 4 weeks to come out and be potentially cancelled by then )

so the semiconductor makers are pissed off ! the usual struggle for 'slots' to produce anything is now flipped to the struggle what to push in the line that will sell 4 weeks from now !. operating cost of a waferfab is hundreds f millions of dollars ( whether doing something or sitting idle. those machines cannot sit idle. if they have nothing to do the chemistry drifts so you need to keep running the cleanroom , gasses , chemicals personnel . To give you an example : a plasma etcher needs to run continuously. if it stops for 4 hours it needs a reactor clean that shots down the machine for 4 hours. the reaction byproducts start flaking off the reactor wall unless you keep 'coating' with new exhaust. so they actually take blank wafers, spend money sputtering aluminum on them , and send them through the machine to be etched. and then sputter again and etch again. after 1500 wafers the machine needs a reactor clean. that is barely 30 hours of work for a fast etcher. so every 30 hours of operation you have 4 hours of down time. don't operate it and after four hours you hit the downtime. due to these short intervals you want to keep cycling production wafers and not dummies.

what to do ? shove products in the line that are guaranteed to sell. sod the crap that is yes/no/yes/no/maybe/maybe next week/we don't know/our market collapsed/we're not sure.
and thus you end up where we are now : all the 'uncertain' parts are on hold and the fabs are full with 'certain' parts ( high-flyers / large or prepaid contracts)

yes there is a semiconductor shortage, but the fabs are full and bursting at the seams to get stuff made !

There is another thing at play right now : the running process nodes need a specific type of silicon wafer. ( diameter, doping ) . The nodes that are shut down use a different type. So the bare wafer makers have actually shut down those lines. there simply isn't any bare silicon for those products! running the smelters costs a lot of money. the rising cost of energy in europe (quadrupled) and the energy restriction in china (china is capping what you can use in a given year) has caused several wafer makers to simply shut down !

https://www.emarketer.com/content/european-silicon-output-expected-shrink-electricity-prices-quadruple
https://www.theregister.com/2022/01/22/eu_silicon_metals/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-01/silicon-s-300-surge-throws-another-price-shock-at-the-world

- the demand for wafers is larger than ever and outstrips the production capacity of wafers
- the production capacity of bare wafers is hampered by energy prices/ availability
- the fabs need to cover their butt

add all this up and you get : if you can get wafers (shortage) you want to make something that will sell (guaranteed sales). and you end up where we are now.

there's more pain coming down the pipe...
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 05:05:39 pm by free_electron »
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 
The following users thanked this post: rsjsouza, PlainName, spostma

Offline harerod

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 469
  • Country: de
  • ee - digital & analog
    • My services:
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #509 on: January 28, 2022, 05:37:21 pm »
At this point I have no polite words left when it comes to Mouser. I have to get 50 lab robots through production. Changes to the BOM are cost intensive. Anyway, we use 10 Panasonic OSCONs for one unit. Mouser was the only place where I found 1583 in stock, yesterday. I ordered one reel of 500 units and got the order confirmation yesterday, 1803h. Early this afternoon the order was still pending, subject to approval by customer service. At that point I called the Munich/Germany support line. I was informed that orders to non-American customers are subject to approval by the American mothership. I was told that a whole reel was too much for one German customer and they might approve a smaller fraction. A lower amount of which they might deem me worthy. I replied that not getting a complete reel would mean a production stop, plus possible redesign. The support person promised to forward this information to her American colleagues. This afternoon 1701h I got the information that the order had been cancelled completely by Mouser.

What I take from this sharade: that particular American company will cancel orders by non-American clients. This perception is shared by my business partners, e.g. electronic designers and at least one board assembly fab.

I attached the progress to this post. Note the change in tone from "Lieber Kunde" in German to an impersonal cancellation in American.


Update Jan, 29th: still over a thousand units in stock, price is still given from single unit to reels, see screenshot. So, what is wrong with that company? America first, as was hinted in that phone call to the hotline or pure greed? Whatever the reason - it cost us time and money to procure alternative components and change the layout.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 10:58:04 am by harerod »
 

Offline rsjsouza

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6067
  • Country: us
  • Eternally curious
    • Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #510 on: January 28, 2022, 05:39:53 pm »
Not only that but, in normal times, there is a pipeline of wafers being regularly manufactured that fulfill the warehouses where already manufactured wafers are sitting ready to be shipped for cutting/packaging/testing. In times like these of panic buying, wafers for popular parts are depleted faster than the forecast and the pipeline starts to starve. The only solution is increase in mfg capacity, which does not come cheap nor quick.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15393
  • Country: fr
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #511 on: January 28, 2022, 06:32:07 pm »
I'd like to listen to those who benefit from whole shortage situation.
The traders, scammers, whatever you people call them?

The speculators of silicon, where are you?
How is Chipageddon affecting you, I ask?

They will probably want to keep quiet. =)

But some figures are public, at least. For instance, the stock value of TSMC has almost tripled since the Covid-19 crisis. You'd think this would be the same for most major foundries? Nope. GlobalFoundries, which is one of the largest after TSMC, is declining.

 
The following users thanked this post: Alti

Offline KE5FX

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2013
  • Country: us
    • KE5FX.COM
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #512 on: January 28, 2022, 08:02:13 pm »
I attached the progress to this post. Note the change in tone from "Lieber Kunde" in German to an impersonal cancellation in American.

Mouser has been acting oddly with regard to domestic orders as well, implementing 'soft' allocation policies that they aren't disclosing.  I needed 400 of a particular part for a production run recently.  Mouser had more in stock than any other domestic distributor, but only 110 pieces.  So it looked like I'd need to order 110 from them, maybe a few more from somebody else, and get the rest from brokers.  Strangely, however, they still showed 110 after I ordered.  I waited 24 hours and ordered 110 more, then did the same thing two more times over the next couple of days.  All four packages arrived as ordered... but at this point they really do seem to be out of stock.

I guess that's their defense against the scalpers.  A good thing, in the sense that their policy enabled me to buy the required parts at the standard retail price, but a bad thing in the sense that undisclosed purchasing limits and inventory levels make planning impossible.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28050
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #513 on: January 28, 2022, 08:04:25 pm »
I attached the progress to this post. Note the change in tone from "Lieber Kunde" in German to an impersonal cancellation in American.

Mouser has been acting oddly with regard to domestic orders as well, implementing 'soft' allocation policies that they aren't disclosing.  I needed 400 of a particular part for a production run recently.  Mouser had more in stock than any other domestic distributor, but only 110 pieces.  So it looked like I'd need to order 110 from them and get the rest from brokers.  Strangely, however, they still showed 110 after I ordered.  I waited 24 hours and ordered 110 more, then did the same thing two more times over the next couple of days.  All four packages arrived as ordered... but at this point they really do seem to be out of stock.
I've heard similar stories about another distributor that puts smaller lots on their website. But they appearantly cancel repeat orders that go to the same shipping address. It may hint towards some distributors wanting to spread parts amongst their customers and not sell everything in 1 big lot.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7492
  • Country: ca
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #514 on: January 28, 2022, 08:07:19 pm »
After the MCU's went out of stock- imagine venerable Mega328 almost 500,000 on order with delivery dates Feb. 2023, I like watching the stock of LM555's declining and hope it hits zero. Digi-Key has a few massively overpriced ones- but can you imagine this staple out of stock? I think this is a trade war, sorry huawei/CCP for hitting the brakes on you. No shortages of Espressif.

We have nothing but ourselves to blame outsourcing fab and packaging to countries building their industry with aggressive grants and tax concessions. It's the only reason, lacking nationalism, to build things onshore. Years ago it was Duties and Tariffs that prevented other countries from dumping products to wipe out local companies. And here we are, no capacity to make semi's other than paying scalpers for the short term.

Intel just chose Ohio as the location for their $20B fab, Wisconsin was #2 but who would want to go near the place after Foxconn soiled the waters, and "environmental credits" were a concern. It's going to be 3-5 years to get that up and running.
Chipageddon continues to worsen but there's no industry insiders saying a peep, so who knows the real situation?
 

Online Howardlong

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5410
  • Country: gb
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #515 on: January 28, 2022, 08:18:40 pm »
Is Winsource reliable? We have a few parts where we kill to pay scalper's rates.

I've had good success with Winsource, and from what I've been able to find out, they are legit overall.

Winsource are piss takers. They advertise one price, take your money, then come back to you five days later with an excuse "they didn't test well, but we have these at 3x the price". It's happened three times to me now.

They do deliver, but take the piss: not to be trusted.

Considering they were nowhere two years ago, I consider them to be nothing more than professional scalpers.

See the thread here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/win-source/
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 08:20:13 pm by Howardlong »
 

Online schmitt trigger

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2354
  • Country: mx
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #516 on: January 28, 2022, 08:19:56 pm »
I had read the term “silicon squatters”, as the term for those speculators which purchase from legitimate distributors, to only have them sit in a warehouse to be re-sold at double or triple prices.
 
The following users thanked this post: Howardlong, tooki

Offline VK3DRBTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2261
  • Country: au
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #517 on: January 29, 2022, 01:06:07 pm »
... No shortages of Espressif....

Chipageddon continues to worsen but there's no industry insiders saying a peep, so who knows the real situation?

There was a critical shortage of the ESP32C3-MINI. So I paid 5X the price to get some on a board made in China where LCSC was price gouging, just a couple of months ago. (They used to be $1.) I now see there are some in the US at 2X the old price.

I suspect the reason companies are quiet is they want to protect their share price. I have read TI's stock exchange announcements and annual reports. Nowhere do they say "In the medium to long term, sales may be impacted because engineers are designing using alternative parts because we don't bother supporting the small guy with parts in the early design phase." It is also somewhat frustrating when companies advertise their new and wonderful parts with emails and yet they are clearly NIL STOCK everywhere.

As for Analog Devices, I was on an AD webinar and the host said they will support design engineers with small quantities even though the lead time might be a year - but you need to contact them directly. If they do this, that is terrific. Their parts are very good, but relatively expensive.
 

Offline IDEngineer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1941
  • Country: us
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #518 on: January 29, 2022, 05:32:28 pm »
As for Analog Devices, I was on an AD webinar and the host said they will support design engineers with small quantities even though the lead time might be a year - but you need to contact them directly. If they do this, that is terrific.
That might work for new designs that are 12+ months away from production. For those who are scrambling to redesign something to replace impossible-to-find parts, that is no solution. I'm not throwing rocks at AD - I love them - but their solution doesn't work for everyone.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28050
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #519 on: January 29, 2022, 06:35:42 pm »
... No shortages of Espressif....

Chipageddon continues to worsen but there's no industry insiders saying a peep, so who knows the real situation?
I suspect the reason companies are quiet is they want to protect their share price. I have read TI's stock exchange announcements and annual reports. Nowhere do they say "In the medium to long term, sales may be impacted because engineers are designing using alternative parts because we don't bother supporting the small guy with parts in the early design phase." It is also somewhat frustrating when companies advertise their new and wonderful parts with emails and yet they are clearly NIL STOCK everywhere.
Not only that, but how many design-ins did TI lose because of the shortage? I have removed quite a few TI chips from my designs in order to have the designs produced in a reasonable time frame. I'm not going to design the TI chips back in at any point if the product works.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8550
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #520 on: January 29, 2022, 06:54:04 pm »
"they didn't test well

test ? TEST ? TEST ? s in "we opened the package and measured them ? "
that is bullshit at so many levels.
1) you don;t have the ability to do factory testing
2) if you touched them , de-reeled them , put em in sockets and re-reeled them  i don't want anything to do with it. esd ? humidity ? proper handling ? solder contamination ?

what a load of craptrap
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline rob77

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: sk
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #521 on: January 29, 2022, 07:12:55 pm »
if someone would telling me 2 years ago that in near future the only way how to get some atmega32u4 micros in small quantities would be to salvage them from Lilypad clone boards... i would not believe him  :-DD
 

Offline DC1MC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1887
  • Country: de
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #522 on: January 30, 2022, 09:52:48 am »
if someone would telling me 2 years ago that in near future the only way how to get some atmega32u4 micros in small quantities would be to salvage them from Lilypad clone boards... i would not believe him  :-DD

What is wrong with Digikey, too expensive  :-// ?
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/microchip-technology/ATMEGA32U4RC-MUR/2774249?utm_campaign=buynow

 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #523 on: January 30, 2022, 01:47:48 pm »
No worries...  as soon as "they" have created the inflation they feel they need, Chipageddon will magically disappear and everything will be available again...   at a new, improved, higher price level, blamed on the shortages!   >:D
 

Offline rob77

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: sk
Re: How is Chipageddon affecting you?
« Reply #524 on: January 30, 2022, 05:07:05 pm »
if someone would telling me 2 years ago that in near future the only way how to get some atmega32u4 micros in small quantities would be to salvage them from Lilypad clone boards... i would not believe him  :-DD

What is wrong with Digikey, too expensive  :-// ?
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/detail/microchip-technology/ATMEGA32U4RC-MUR/2774249?utm_campaign=buynow

most probably the fact that they have only the RC version ? ... RC has a internal calibrated RC oscillator, no option for external XTAL.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf