Author Topic: Hiring a versatile person challenge  (Read 6927 times)

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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Hiring a versatile person challenge
« on: February 22, 2017, 09:32:53 pm »
I have started, built, and sold  a few small businesses in my career. Nothing huge, but enough to know that I will never have a large staff for my various endeavors.

The persistent challenge is to deal with the reality that I cannot hire highly specialized people since there is never enough work for a dedicated task. The need is usually for people that are interested, willing, and capable of wearing whatever hat they need to wear to get through the day. Over a 20 year time period, I have come across some gems, but of course they are rare. My current business is substantially different than the previous and I am trying to figure out where to look. This job is truly a catch-all that will span from setting up and operation of pick & place machine to organizing the lab and taking the trash out. Literally anything.

General job desription:
Be good at learning - if you cannot learn or do not like learning, you will be useless.
Any electronics assembly experience - including hobby type projects
  • Hand soldering SMD
  • organizing parts and assembly setups
  • organizing parts and assembly setups
Computer proficient - meaning actual, practical skills in Windows and Linux. Data management/organization (ie don't save everything to your desktop), networking, basic configuration, repair, troubleshooting.
Python, C, LabView skills are a huge bonus. Better than average Excel skills.

Good mechanical skills since we design, test, and assemble precision mechanical parts and systems. Many of these skills cannot be taught, they are skills that the person has to be interested in enough to figure it out on their own.

Must be organized (very organized). Bonus points for any photography, video, media, social media chops to help with various marketing efforts.

I was thinking of joining some local clubs that do robotics, electronics, programming, HAM etc to meet people. We are in Los Angeles area so there are a LOT of people, but I don't know a single potential applicant after 10 years here. A general all-call for resumes is like finding a needle in a Everest size haystack.

Anyone have some suggestions? Probably a younger person, but not necessarily. Pay is very competitive based on demonstrated skills and how much time I have to spend to get them productive.
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Online tautech

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2017, 09:50:11 pm »
Carlos, first put an ad here with a link to this discussion.:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/jobs/

Either end of the age spectrum is likely where you'll find your best candidate. Young....you'll have the opportunity to mold them to your needs and given the chance to grow could serve you well for decades.
Older....unless passionate like ourselves, might it be just another job in their career ?
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Online DimitriP

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2017, 10:13:53 pm »
My suggestion involves a cloning machine,  and if you come accross one , I need to borrow it.
A pessimist would say you have a better chance coming across a cloning machine :)

The idea of looking into clubs is a good one. Not fast, but good.
Best of luck.


   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Online DimitriP

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2017, 10:26:01 pm »
Here is a more optimistic suggestion.
The suggestion below comes as a result of a long story, which I'm not gonna share in print or in public but here it is:
Post a job for the bare, non-exciting minimum part of the job. "With room for advancement".
The perfect candidate's resume will stand out like a tube among transistors.
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline Assafl

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2017, 10:30:13 pm »
Out of school. Preferably get them as they are last year in school (otherwise they get snatched quickly by Intel and TI and Apple).

That is where we found people like this and they are rare. (another way is to troll people networks - people like this may have friends or know of others like them).
 

Offline Vtile

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2017, 10:33:55 pm »
Sounds like what my old industrial automation hang out place in uni used to clone.  ::)

Edit. I forgot the smiler.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 10:36:13 pm by Vtile »
 

Offline linux-works

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2017, 10:36:34 pm »
I don't know about so-cal - but in the sf bay area, you should be able to find lots of people who can do most of what you are looking for.

have you thought about moving up here?

your chances would be better, for that jack of all trades kind of person.

Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2017, 10:39:30 pm »
There are some people that hate a variety job and want to be focused on something specific. Others (like me) will go crazy if they do the same thing all the time.

The wording, if not done well, can scare off some of the best options if it sounds mundane or a false promise of advancement opportunities.

The ideal person would be one that stays after hours to make things for themselves. Machine a part, make a PCB. At least all the toys will be available. 'Normal' jobs usually don't allow employees to fiddle after hours to learn something.

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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2017, 10:40:48 pm »
Unfortunately, bay area is not possible with my complicated kids / ex-spouse situation.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2017, 11:56:29 pm »
My suggestion involves a cloning machine,  and if you come accross one , I need to borrow it.
A pessimist would say you have a better chance coming across a cloning machine :)

The idea of looking into clubs is a good one. Not fast, but good.
Best of luck.

Cloning could create some HR issues like the same person applying for insurance, taxes, etc. Better keep that option in it's box.

As for local clubs - I know of none in the area. A google search has not yet revealed much - but the effort was minimal so far. The good news is that I have time to look, no emergency so I can be careful and picky.

Any So-cal EEVbloggers know of any clubs that meet up? Maker spaces maybe?
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Offline HwAoRrDk

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2017, 02:24:37 am »
Man, I would love to have a job like that. Shame I'm thousands of miles away on another continent.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2017, 10:12:28 am »
I would kill for a job like that. (In fact I am looking for a job like that now, since my RSI problems mean I cannot have a desk job where I'm just sitting at a computer all day long.)

Around no here job listings are always super laser focused on a particular job, and they won't even look at your resume if you don't have a formal education in that specific laser focused specialization...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 10:14:06 am by tooki »
 

Offline Benta

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2017, 07:32:19 pm »
@rx8pilot:
You'll find these kind of people all over the world.

But your original post  hints at what might be the problem.

You write a lengthy post about about what YOU need, but you offer nothing (except "competitive pay").

Perhaps you should think about what might attract people to your job.
Pay, flexible working time, advancement possibilities, benefits, health insurance, empowerment, responsibility, the list is infinite.

Go from there, the right person will turn up if you try to put yourself in his/her place. Employer/employee relationship is a give-and-take relationship. The Walmart way won't work.
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2017, 07:59:42 pm »
Great points @Benta.

I'd be thinking about how you and the employee would fit together as a team - e.g. you want someone who is super-organised. Is it because you are disorganised and need someone to compliment you? Or is it because you are super organised and want someone who is the same as you?

Do you want someone who will turn up on time every day? What about someone who will work all night when you really need it to meet a deadline? Those two traits might not come together.

Perhaps the Myers Briggs personality tests might be useful. I've never used them in a work environment but perhaps others have.
https://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test
 

Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2017, 08:27:59 pm »
@rx8pilot:
You'll find these kind of people all over the world.

But your original post  hints at what might be the problem.

You write a lengthy post about about what YOU need, but you offer nothing (except "competitive pay").

Perhaps you should think about what might attract people to your job.
Pay, flexible working time, advancement possibilities, benefits, health insurance, empowerment, responsibility, the list is infinite.

Go from there, the right person will turn up if you try to put yourself in his/her place. Employer/employee relationship is a give-and-take relationship. The Walmart way won't work.

Totally.

The goal of this thread is not to be a job offer, but rather a discussion of exactly what you pointed out - how can I be attractive to the right people? If I looked back into my history, the two best people I ever had the pleasure of working with were total flukes.

The first one, had just moved into town and literally picked up a phone book and cold called various places that seemed interesting. I wasn't even looking at the time, but met with him and hired him the next day. He turned out to be so pivotal - he earned a piece of the sale price when I sold the business. Total rock star that came out of thin air.

The next one, was working a night shift near-by and saw that I was in the CNC shop late at night. He asked if I was looking for any new people and I responded that I only have an entry level position that I could offer, but during the day.

Both of these people had a built in interest to learn things and solve problems. I initially only offered a modest paycheck, but access to detailed training, equipment, software, business management, etc, etc. Both of them took the opportunity and moved vertically quickly, becoming indispensable.

For the 'intentional' hires over the years I managed to find mainly people that simply needed a job and were not so interested in moving up. Everyone wants a raise, few are interested in earning a raise of course. Agencies have provided the worst applicants. Job sites like Monster were somewhat better, but creates an enormously time consuming effort dealing with the noise.

Does it not make sense to spell out what the business needs first, find a person that has some level of fit, and then start sorting out what we can offer? For a sharply defined job at a larger company - the pay, benefits, schedule, etc are more known. In a very small business, it is very dynamic and risky to promise too much. I spoke with a friend last night that started with a new company a couple of years ago. They made all sorts of promises that the business could not support. It was not deception, the owners simply expected the business to do better and offer more to him. Needless to say, he is frustrated and looking to leave.

With all that said:
In general, I rarely keep a regular schedule and have rarely needed employees to keep regular hours either. If they want to avoid traffic - come in at 10A. If they have a kid in school, go pick them up. We have a couple of hot times of the year where vacations are discouraged - but other than that, the schedule is flexible. Need Monday off? Make it up on Saturday. I keep snacks and coffee available and regularly provide lunch. I spend a LOT of my time offering paid skill building training, but expect some off-line effort to move up to the next level.
Industrial design, mechanical engineering, 5 axis CNC machining, electrical engineering, PCB layout, automation, programming, test and validation, marketing, back office management, and more are all up for participation. Most people will lean toward 1-2 of those things, but some will also be able to switch gears and enjoy tackling a little of all of those challenges.

As an example: Shipping finished pieces. It is no small feat to design and implement an efficient shipping system, both conceptually and physically. It involves software, API's to FedEx/UPS, special printers, the right materials, a physical flow to minimize the time needed to ship, a way to capture mistakes and adjust to process to fix them, a set of metrics to understand if the system is working well. Even for a small business, it is a challenge and critical to do it well. We cannot bring in a specialty automation company like Amazon might do, we have to sort it out internally. There are dozens of short term projects that essentially boil down to internal infrastructure. If I hired someone that leans toward engineering, but cannot be bothered to design the shipping system first - busted. It would end up being all on me nights and weekends.

I try to assign a value to specific skills when possible. For example, if someone learns to setup and run the pick & place machine - that is worth real money that is likely paid out as a bonus. Once you have a skill, nothing can take that skill away. It goes on your resume so I have to continue to make the pay appropriate as the skills grow so that I don't lose this person after investing enormous effort training them. That is why I work hard to ensure any employee knows that I recognize and appreciate personal progress - hopefully continuing to progress.

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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2017, 08:37:30 pm »
Great points @Benta.

I'd be thinking about how you and the employee would fit together as a team - e.g. you want someone who is super-organised. Is it because you are disorganised and need someone to compliment you? Or is it because you are super organised and want someone who is the same as you?

Do you want someone who will turn up on time every day? What about someone who will work all night when you really need it to meet a deadline? Those two traits might not come together.

I would say that I am very organized, but am overwhelmed to the point where I cannot maintain organization. I have spent a lot of time working out organizational schemes, but they still need to implemented. There are some areas that don't even have a plan yet and the ideal person would be able to recognize chaos, build a plan to organize it, and then follow through. It does NOT have to be my way as long as they can explain it to me and it makes sense. If it is something that I personally have to deal with every day, I will have more opinions. If it is something that only the employee deals with most of the time, I have far fewer opinions as long as it works reliably and safely.

Having someone so dedicated to stay all night to hit a deadline is a great dream - but not a real expectation. Our work does some in waves but I have learned to avoid tsunami's the majority of the time which is good for everyone. Go back 10 years and it was a real roller coaster cluster f'ck crazy. Today, not so insane. In 2007 I worked continuously for about 55 hours. Stupid. Crazy.
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Offline snarkysparky

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2017, 01:43:06 pm »
I would say you are looking for something impossible.  The job description sounds more like a business partner than an employee.  You want someone to be invested in making your business a success in all aspects but the salary /  hourly pay scheme tends to encourage a different attitude in people. Of course it is not impossible because you have had people like this before but as you say they were flukes.

Anyway good luck.
 
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2017, 06:01:05 pm »
I would say you are looking for something impossible.  The job description sounds more like a business partner than an employee.  You want someone to be invested in making your business a success in all aspects but the salary /  hourly pay scheme tends to encourage a different attitude in people. Of course it is not impossible because you have had people like this before but as you say they were flukes.

Anyway good luck.

There is no question it is a tall order. Here is the difference between what I am asking for and a partner.....

A partner already has most of the skills prescribed. If they don't, they expect to learn them on their own without leaning on everyone else (slowing them down). A partner gets paid zero until the operation is actually working. A partner, in general, has a their own investment of time/money in the business. If the business fails, they lose all of what they put in.

The employee that I am looking for is one that simply has potential and interest and they get paid regardless of how well the business does. They are the first to get paid ahead of owners and partners. They build skills over a considerable amount of time and take up my own personal time to make that happen. This employee may be a good partner a few years down the road, but not likely on day 1.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 06:05:50 pm by rx8pilot »
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Offline tooki

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2017, 11:34:11 am »
I would say you are looking for something impossible.  The job description sounds more like a business partner than an employee.
Nothing about it says business partner to me.

There's a huge difference between seeking unicorns and seeking smart, quick learners with potential. I think the business world in general makes the mistake of seeking the former, when what they should be doing is the latter.

I would kill to get into a place willing to give me the time and support to get up to speed. I'm a super quick learner, but how am I supposed to get experience if I can't get in anywhere? (I am a job seeker at the moment, and this is a constant problem, everyone only wants experienced hires, but how am I supposed to gain said experience if I can't get in the door??) The OP sounds like a very wise person who'd probably be great to work for, if it's a good match.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2017, 12:20:49 pm »
I would kill to get into a place willing to give me the time and support to get up to speed. I'm a super quick learner, but how am I supposed to get experience if I can't get in anywhere? (I am a job seeker at the moment, and this is a constant problem, everyone only wants experienced hires, but how am I supposed to gain said experience if I can't get in the door??)
I don't want to derail the thread but the answer to that question is: build circuits by yourself at home.

On topic: I'm not sure hiring one person for a wide variety of jobs (janitor, machinist, EE) is such a good idea. What could be a good approach is to get an intern in his/her last year. If the person fits then you have an employee. There are lots of companies out there where you can hire a cleaner to keep the lab clean and take the trash out.
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Offline b_force

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2017, 07:09:00 pm »
I don't agree at all with the comments that this is impossible. I have worked in and seen a lot of companies where this is even common sense.
Employees are expected to wear many many hats, have a very pro-active attitude and are not to annoyed when working on odd times.

I was head of departement in one of these companies and I always enjoyed it We had quiet some interns which were expected to think on the same way.

The way to find these people, is to have a proper job description to start with. Next is selecting them on their experience. So see if they did a lot of stuff in the past. That means they are willing to work.
I even prefer picking people with a lot of (hobby) experience over people with a degree. Knowledge is easy to teach, experience is not.

You expect that people think outside the box, so it means you also have to do that. Think in possibilities. The people you're looking for do this type of work for joy. More important is that they also need to fit well together. Like a group of friends.
My personal experience means that things like a good salary etc are not the most important things.


Last but not least, even if everyone is expected to wear many hats, also let them specialise.
Otherwise their daily tasks will be way to vague.
And be aware you are not going to find anyone with exactly ALL those skills.
You're looking for people with potential.

Personal note, is that i also do much better when I have many different things to do. Strict daily planned tasks make my brain feel numb. Far from motivating.
In fact this job also sound like nice to me.
Ever thought about working with remote freelancers? ;)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 07:44:01 pm by b_force »
 
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2017, 07:46:16 pm »
I don't want to derail the thread but the answer to that question is: build circuits by yourself at home.

On topic: I'm not sure hiring one person for a wide variety of jobs (janitor, machinist, EE) is such a good idea. What could be a good approach is to get an intern in his/her last year. If the person fits then you have an employee. There are lots of companies out there where you can hire a cleaner to keep the lab clean and take the trash out.

There is a big difference in tinkering at home with a few hundred $$ worth of pieces and parts and working at a business. On the job experience is critical and very hard to get.

We have enough work to have a person doing general cleaning maybe 1hr per week. The lab/machine shop is essentially taking the trash out for a typical cleaning service - useless. The people in charge of that area are responsible for organization and cleaning all the detailed and delicate things.

Everyone needs to have a specialty area they can call their own for sure. My first real 'job' the big boss told me to create a job and let them know what it was. They would then decide how to proceed. So I did - it was a good size facility with many $millions of dollars worth of gear. I learned all of it going from department to department before settling in to my official job. At that point, I was aware of what everyone else did and how the big picture was created. When one dept had issues - I was able to jump in a help out. It was fantastic.

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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2017, 10:35:25 pm »
I don't agree at all with the comments that this is impossible.

Definitely not impossible.

The way to find these people, is to have a proper job description to start with. Next is selecting them on their experience. So see if they did a lot of stuff in the past. That means they are willing to work.
I even prefer picking people with a lot of (hobby) experience over people with a degree. Knowledge is easy to teach, experience is not.

This is a tough one for me. My experience is that when I define the position clearly - I end up with people that really just want to do that particular job. They may even be fantastic at it as well. When they learn that they also need to jump in to the shipping 'department' to get things to a customer, they feel like they should not be asked to do that or at least don't take any responsibility for it since it is not a defined part of their job.

On the other hand, a loose description can be rather scary to some otherwise great candidates. At the end of the day - this is our 3rd person including me. There is no way to specialize or be too good to sweep the floor periodically. When I still had my CNC shop in-house, I regularly cleaned and organized MYSELF even though I had 12 employees. I pointed out to most of them that I am doing that because they are not doing it as they went along - the ones that only did what they were told did not last. I personally take the trash out, design circuits, machine parts, update the web page, label folders, pack boxes, etc. Whatever needs to be done on that particular day is the job of everyone until the team is large enough to divide the tasks.

Last but not least, even if everyone is expected to wear many hats, also let them specialise.
Otherwise their daily tasks will be way to vague.
And be aware you are not going to find anyone with exactly ALL those skills.
You're looking for people with potential.

For sure. I want people that can find a groove they are good at and enjoy. As that naturally happens, hopefully the business will grow to hire the next person to take some of the unrelated tasks off the table.

In fact this job also sound like nice to me.
Ever thought about working with remote freelancers? ;)

If you can remotely setup a PCB run, test them, assemble the whole mechanical system with 500+ parts, and then ship it while working remotely - you are in.  :-DD
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Offline metrologist

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2017, 11:02:08 pm »
There is no question it is a tall order. Here is the difference between what I am asking for and a partner.....
This employee may be a good partner a few years down the road, but not likely on day 1.

That's true, but a few years down the road they likely will not be your partner. I've always had better long term success disclosing the mundane details of a job. If they get turned off reading about it, how well will they perform doing it? Broad advertising and luck.
 

Offline Vtile

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Re: Hiring a versatile person challenge
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2017, 11:03:33 pm »
Quote
In fact this job also sound like nice to me.
Ever thought about working with remote freelancers? ;)

If you can remotely setup a PCB run, test them, assemble the whole mechanical system with 500+ parts, and then ship it while working remotely - you are in.  :-DD
Two arm robot (ie. motoman DA20 etc.) on trolley, some cameras a highspeed netlink and a control table. Pluss some glue code for the off-the-shelf-components. I call it playsible.  >:D
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 11:11:05 pm by Vtile »
 


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