heres a gas pressure vessel can i get some advice.

[Capernicus]

pardo-bbso...

Thanks for the tips.

Could u elaborate more on oil contamination, and what exactly can cause oxygen explosions?

Have u ever had your bomb at full psi?  (the full tonne?)

[Ian.M]

Re: Oil contamination

High pressure or liquid Oxygen + just about any organic compound or finely divided particles of many metals = high yield explosive.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyliquit

Just about any impact, friction or ESD can detonate it, even if the triggering event only initially creates a nano-scale hotspot.

If you live out in the boonies and can set up your experiments to be entirely performed in a pit out in the middle of the 'back 40', using CCTV and waldos from a bunker at a safe distance, by all means go ahead.   If you are in an urban or suburban area, don't even consider messing with high pressure Oxygen!

[TimFox]

A similar technique, critical-point drying, is used to prepare microscope specimens, and uses similar pressures with similar hazards.
You could start with the document linked by Leica:  https://www.leica-microsystems.com/science-lab/brief-introduction-to-critical-point-drying/
This technique was new when I was in grad school, and we heard several horror stories about explosions in laboratories.  As I mentioned earlier, the pressure vessel used is called a "bomb" for good reason.
Leica mentions pressures up to 74 bar (1000 psi) for CO₂, and considers the 229 bar (3300 psi) required for H₂O to be impracticable.
The bombs used for this process are serious constructions, not Pepsi bottles or pressure cookers.  One unfortunate incident involved a lab where a plastic shield (usually used to prevent splatter accidents in chem labs) around the bomb was hit by the explosion, and the shards caused serious injuries.

[Capernicus]

thats really interesting,  I'm planning on doing something alot more primitive than that.
I don't know what critical point even is.

So even friction can set off liquid oxygen,  but what if its diluted in water,  is it less explosive?  Cause at 2000 psi I compute im still 90% diluted in water,  even tho my calculations could be way off!!!   So I better be careful.

Im actually "drying" something as well,  there is icy cold "mud" (with the magnesium oxide in a milk of cold water) in there and I want to evaporate off all the h2o over time in the presence of a gas (which accellerates crystalization, like an acid.),   so I was thinking of vibrating it and somehow transfering to a condenser nearby,  but maybe the friction will agitate the oxygen and might blow up...

If it turns out risky as hell,  I can make magnesium carbonate instead of magnesium oxide and ill be just as happy,  and it might be way less dangerous.

The carbonous acid counts as 1% when the oxygen-base counts as 10%,  ph wise.     at the same pressure.   But its only my dodgy calculations I'm not sure about any of it.

But!   If I just use compressed air instead of oxygen,  is that alot safer???
If I use pure oxygen I can probably get away with way less PSI...  so maybe if I use oxygen I should only limit the psi that goes in, to save my skin.


So whats more dangerous...  2000 psi co2, 2000 psi air -  or 200 psi pure oxygen?  (cause I think its the same effect on crystalization.)

At 200 psi, its probably 1% liquid oxygen (only by my dodgy calculations tho...),  I wonder if thats not as explosive?

[pardo-bsso]

Have u ever had your bomb at full psi?  (the full tonne?)

Yes, I regularly fill the cylinder when I empty it welding.
However, I do follow all the security procedures and that's one of the reasons I'm still alive.

But!   If I just use compressed air instead of oxygen,  is that alot safer???
If I use pure oxygen I can probably get away with way less PSI...  so maybe if I use oxygen I should only limit the psi that goes in, to save my skin.

So whats more dangerous...  2000 psi co2, 2000 psi air -  or 200 psi pure oxygen?  (cause I think its the same effect on crystalization.)

At 200 psi, its probably 1% liquid oxygen (only by my dodgy calculations tho...),  I wonder if thats not as explosive?

Forget for a moment the gas.
Besides oxygen being very dangerous, the other point that we are trying to make is that *all* pressurized containers store a lot of energy no matter what the gas inside. And 200psi is a lot, it can really maim you.

[SeanB]

I had the training on LOX and high pressure oxygen, and even things like having shoes with polish on them can be flammable. We had a special dispensation not to polish our working shoes, because of the risk of the wax catching fire. In the military, where shoe polishing is considered an art, and your shoes are expected to be a mirror like gloss at all times, but us Instrument fitters were exempt. We did have fun with that rule.

But remember that oxygen, even at 1 atmosphere, is very much going to support combustion, even for things they you would not consider flammable, like paints, most plastics (including PTFE, even if half the oxygen equipment uses it for seals and piping), aluminium, once the oxide layer is breached, and even stainless steel. Put it under pressure and many more things will burn, such as that little burr scraped off the surface when putting the lid on, and definitely any cheap unknown seal material used in the lid, likely some form of silicone rubber or EPDM or nitrile rubber, it will likely either smoulder or simply burn, and once there is a hole through the gas flow will turn the burning material into a flame jet.

We had separate armoured rooms where the oxygen equipment was kept, with blast proof doors, and with clear access so that the blast would not damage much more than the room. Inside the lighting was all heavily armoured, liquid tight IP68 rated Pratley EEX rated boxes, lamp enclosures, and with the power switch outside the room. The filling of high pressure cylinders was an entirely separate section, with a prefab hut for the operation, so the blast would not be fatal for too many other than those inside, and the cylinders were always filled with no people in the room, and all outside by the vapouriser, behind it's own blast wall.

Pure oxidiser gases are dangerous. Oxygen, flourine, chlorine and bromine, because they all support vigorous combustion and are common, and either gas or liquid depending on temperature and pressure, and are a relatively common material to get in pure state. iodine is also dangerous, but is not as reactive, and the others in the 2 colums are either solid, or are simply going to kill you for other reasons.

That 304 stainless series thin wall pot is really only rated for air, or water, at no more than 4 bar, as it will want to turn to a ball, and being thin wall it likely is just about capable of handling 6 bar before splitting along the side, from all the cold work that has been done shaping it. 1000 cycles of pressure to 4 bar likely will see it failing.

[Capernicus]

1000 cycles of pressure to 4 bar likely will see it failing.

Yeh would definitely take more than a pepsi bottle,  but u probably want a blast shield around that thing with a big heavy concrete lid on it under the surface of the ground.   Who'd want to trust the engineers involved, best to be safe and sure.


--- and---  only use 200 millilitres of it, and concrete the rest of the volume up inside.  Then see if the bastard can hit 20,000  hehe  (jk, i think im only going to use 200.)

[TimFox]

"thats really interesting,  I'm planning on doing something alot more primitive than that.
I don't know what critical point even is."
An apocryphal statement attributed to Fats Waller:  "...if you don't know by now, don't mess with it!"
Have you looked at the document that Leica linked in the link I sent you above?

[Capernicus]

Yes it was amazing,  but I didn't quite understand.

They had some good ball park figures there, I need to rebudget everything, theres more I need to know, definitely,  so I'm going to put the project off for a while yet for anything high pressure.

I'm just going to set up a little 100psi system (but with pure oxygen) and see if I get some cementing to happen.    If it turns out I'm completely off with everything I'll go for more reading.  I'm kinda a little restless at the moment, I want to see something happen with what I know now.

May just all fall apart in my hands, wont agglomerate at all.


(heres a vid of me with some gypsum chalk, I did it in a vibrating crock pot, and it was pretty tough, but yes I snapped it...)


I think you can actually have a "crock of shit" and it makes the poo go hard!  with slow high temperature evaporation! =) hehe

[IanB]

thats really interesting,  I'm planning on doing something alot more primitive than that.
I don't know what critical point even is.

So even friction can set off liquid oxygen,  but what if its diluted in water,  is it less explosive?  Cause at 2000 psi I compute im still 90% diluted in water,  even tho my calculations could be way off!!!   So I better be careful.

Im actually "drying" something as well,  there is icy cold "mud" (with the magnesium oxide in a milk of cold water) in there and I want to evaporate off all the h2o over time in the presence of a gas (which accellerates crystalization, like an acid.),   so I was thinking of vibrating it and somehow transfering to a condenser nearby,  but maybe the friction will agitate the oxygen and might blow up...

If it turns out risky as hell,  I can make magnesium carbonate instead of magnesium oxide and ill be just as happy,  and it might be way less dangerous.

The carbonous acid counts as 1% when the oxygen-base counts as 10%,  ph wise.     at the same pressure.   But its only my dodgy calculations I'm not sure about any of it.

But!   If I just use compressed air instead of oxygen,  is that alot safer???
If I use pure oxygen I can probably get away with way less PSI...  so maybe if I use oxygen I should only limit the psi that goes in, to save my skin.


So whats more dangerous...  2000 psi co2, 2000 psi air -  or 200 psi pure oxygen?  (cause I think its the same effect on crystalization.)

At 200 psi, its probably 1% liquid oxygen (only by my dodgy calculations tho...),  I wonder if thats not as explosive?

Everything you are writing is incorrect.

The presence of a gas does not accelerate crystallization.

Acids do not accelerate crystallization.

Oxygen is not diluted by water, because oxygen does not significantly dissolve in water.

Oxygen is not an acid, nor is it a base.

You suddenly brought in carbonous acid out of nowhere. Where did you get that from?

Carbonous acid does not count as 1%, pH wise. That sentence has no meaning.

Oxygen-base is meaningless and does not exist.

Oxygen does not affect pH as it is neither an acid nor a base.

Liquid oxygen does not form by increasing pressure, 2000 psi or otherwise.

[Capernicus]

Yes you are right, I'm not the most wisest chemist at all,  All I know is salt disappears in water for some unknown mystery and it all snowballed from there.

If you add co2 to water you get a rise in ph, and its linear to pressure.  (and a change in ph will increase crystalization.) It makes carbonous acid.  (On the internet it calls it carbonic acid,  but it isn't.    sulphurous acid is when sulphur dioxide is added to water, and it "softens" gypsum.)

I don't know for sure,  But I figure if you add oxygen it lowers ph.   they are both gasses,   so I guess all gasses do it.  I may be wrong.

Carbonous acid (with CO2) "softens" carbonate minerals.
Sulphurous acid (with SO2) "softens" sulphate minerals.  (like Gypsum.)

So If Sulphur and Carbon do it,  I'm guessing oxygen does it as well, but I'm also guessing it softens it even more! because its more potent a gas.

Then the gas pressure has a briquetting action on the softened mineral.  (I put it in a special collapsing mould, that allows a few millimetre's of shrinkage.)  So it softens it, then it pushes it together in a scintering type action, both with the same mechanism, compressed gas.

Thats the idea,  I told you its quite simple and primitive.    I know!!! it happens with sulphur dioxide and carbon dioxide, but its only weak, yes, But with oxygen it may be stronger at the same pressure, but its a mystery I have to try to find out.

Its a stab in the dark of a generalization,  might be true,  might not,   have to find out.

[IanB]

Yes you are right, I'm not the most wisest chemist at all,  All I know is salt disappears in water for some unknown mystery and it all snowballed from there.

It dissolves. It will come back again if you evaporate the water.

If you add co2 to water you get a rise in ph.   It makes carbonous acid.  (On the internet it calls it carbonic acid,  but it isn't.    sulphurous acid is when sulphur dioxide is added to water, and it "softens" gypsum.)

It makes carbonic acid. The internet is correct. Carbonous acid is another name for formic acid, which is something else entirely.

I don't know what you mean by "softens". Gypsum is a mineral. It is hard. Nothing "softens" it.

I don't know for sure,  But I figure if you add oxygen it lowers ph.   they are both gasses,   so I guess all gasses do it.  I may be wrong.

Oxygen does not lower pH, because oxygen is neutral.

All gases are different, so different gases do different things. You cannot generalize like that.

Carbonous acid (Maybe with CO2) "softens" carbonate minerals.

Carbonic acid can dissolve carbonates like limestone. It doesn't soften them. They remain hard until they dissolve, and then they are gone.

So If Sulphur and Carbon do it,  I'm guessing oxygen does it as well, but I'm also guessing it softens it even more! because its more potent a gas.

Sulphur and carbon are solids. Oxygen is a gas.

"More potent a gas" does not mean anything in this context.

Then the gas pressure has a briquetting action on the softened mineral.  (I put it in a special collapsing mould, that allows a few millimetre's of shrinkage.)

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Thats the idea,  I told you its quite simple and primitive.    I know!!! it happens with sulphur dioxide and carbon dioxide, but its only weak, yes, But with oxygen it may be stronger at the same pressure, but its a mystery I have to try to find out.

There is no softening. That is not a thing.

[KaneTW]

Just... shut up. Stop. Don't do this, or anything related to chemistry, or elevated pressures, or electricity for that matter, until you have a firm grasp of the basics.

[TimFox]

Generalizations about chemistry usually require looking at the Periodic Table.
Oxygen and carbon are in different columns.  Sulfur is under oxygen, but sulfur dioxide is different from molecular oxygen.
Does dissolved oxygen affect pH?  Once again, Google gives us this result:  https://atlas-scientific.com/blog/does-dissolved-oxygen-affect-ph/
I suggest that you do some simple research before asserting: "I don't know for sure,  But I figure if you add oxygen it lowers ph.   they are both gasses,   so I guess all gasses do it.  I may be wrong"
When I was young, I read a bad translation of Verne's "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" that kept referring to "carbonic acid" when it meant gaseous CO₂ in the local atmosphere, which confused me since I had just read a children's book about medical disinfectant and thought it meant "carbolic acid", a quite different chemical.

[Capernicus]

Carbonic acid can dissolve carbonates like limestone. It doesn't soften them. They remain hard until they dissolve, and then they are gone.

They come back just like salt does, at the bottom of the pot when the acids all fumed off. (Into co2 )  If they just "disappear and not come back" Where did they go to?

Its how to make a salt,  with a metal and an acid.     And chalk is another kind of salt.


Seems funny, but I dont trust wikipedia for anything much at all,  I find other sources way better.
But like I said, I could be wrong about this whole thing, I dont mind if I am.    I'm just prooving things myself cause I trust bugger all around me!!


You might be able to inject hydrogen into water as well, and it goes acidic.   (but I think oxygen stops it turning into a hydroxide. but I could be wrong easily.)

[TimFox]

I use Google and Wikipedia to find quickly a treatment that others can look at.
I have lots of textbooks from my student days, but they are hard to cite.
Not looking anywhere at all, even in "quaint and curious volumes of forgotten lore" when dealing with chemistry and other obscure topics, is not useful.

[IanB]

Carbonic acid can dissolve carbonates like limestone. It doesn't soften them. They remain hard until they dissolve, and then they are gone.

They come back just like salt does, at the bottom of the pot when the acids all fumed off. (Into co2 )  If they just "disappear and not come back" Where did they go to?

This is correct. The dissolved solids come back if you evaporate the water (but as the bicarbonate, not the carbonate). The CO2 will not fume off unless you make it very hot.

Its how to make a salt,  with a metal and an acid.     And chalk is another kind of salt.

This is correct.

Seems funny, but I dont trust wikipedia for anything much at all,  I find other sources way better.
But like I said, I could be wrong about this whole thing, I dont mind if I am.    I'm just prooving things myself cause I trust bugger all around me!!

Wikipedia has its faults, but is is mostly correct about most things.

You might be able to inject hydrogen into water as well, and it goes acidic.   (but I think oxygen stops it turning into a hydroxide. but I could be wrong easily.)

This is not correct. Hydrogen gas, like oxygen gas, is neutral. If you dissolve it in water it does not change the pH.

[Capernicus]

You might be able to inject hydrogen into water as well, and it goes acidic.   (but I think oxygen stops it turning into a hydroxide. but I could be wrong easily.)

This is not correct. Hydrogen gas, like oxygen gas, is neutral. If you dissolve it in water it does not change the pH.

I'm yet to see the litmus test on it!!!

[PaulAm]

So If Sulphur and Carbon do it,  I'm guessing oxygen does it as well, but I'm also guessing it softens it even more! because its more potent a gas.

Gawd, this is so far off any basic understanding of chemistry as to be beyond the pale.

Well, as suggested earlier, livestream the procedures, eventually you will get to a teaching moment.

[LaserSteve]

OK< Link is incredibly disturbing and gross.

This is what happens when things go wrong with oxidizers and pressure vessels:

https://youtu.be/rUKcHe0-m_I?t=302

His parents permitted the use of the pictures in the safety film. May he rest in Peace.

I still wonder if OP is trolling us.

If you have no clue what your doing, it is time to leave this experiment alone.



Steve

[TimFox]

A typical way to make an acidic liquid is to take a gas such as HCl and dissolve it in water.
The HCl molecules dissociate into two ions:  H⁺ and Cl^-.  The H⁺ ions are what make the result acidic.
Now, neither H₂ nor O₂ molecules can dissociate into two ions:  H⁺ is always a positive ion, and O^- is always a negative ion.
H₂O, of course, can dissociate into H⁺ and OH^-, which gives pure water its finite pH value (a logarithmic measure of the hydrogen ion concentration in the liquid).

[Capernicus]

Yes,  I think that Hydrogen and oxygen dont have much of an effect on water now.

I looked up "Gas solubility in water" and got a bit of a shock,  oxygen and hydrogen were the lowest,  maybe somethng is going on tho, because they are a slightly soluable.   they arent totally neutral or they wouldnt mix at all...  but very little effect for psi...

But sulphur dioxide has a huge effect! the water just keeps sucking it up!  makes u wonder how much sulphur dioxide
is in all water.    So it means I'm best sticking with gypsum if I do this,  put 100 psis worth in a pepsi bottle and ill probably have
a 175% concentration!   so that might make anhydrite!

With carbon dioxide at the same psi level its only 2% concentrated and its more affected by dibasity... (i still have a theory going for the that one thats not dead yet.)   Id have to pump that up to 2000 psi, then get affected by the dibasity to even get half diluted...

So the crystalization potential for sulphates is alot higher than carbonates.

With carbonates your better off with just proper acid, not just dissolved gas.   I got this interesting idea of getting the mud (be it mag carb or copper carb - in the art mould) and then zapping it in from a soluable rock solution through a membrane. (Making the acid how I was shown on the net.)

But if its oxide or hydroxide, Ive got no idea,  but maybe it just takes a shit load of psi with oxygen,  but its more than I could ever produce without blowing myself up... if u look at the solubility, its very low. - but... that means its not doing nothing entirely.

[jpanhalt]

Yes, he's a troll.

[jpanhalt]

Some things to consider:

- everything burns in presence of oxygen, steel included.

Not quite, but a good point anyway.  Use the periodic table.  Chlorine (3rd row) is slightly more electronegative than oxygen (second row).*  That leads to some interesting combinations.  But, fluorine is more electronegative than both.  Thus, water "burns" in fluorine.

However, fluorine is such a "rare bird" and reactive that ordinary organic chemists didn't learn much about it when I was in school, omitting UF6, of course.  We were such nerds that when someone in the the mass spec room dropped and broke a vial of UF6, we were taking a final exam and refused to evacuate, until were forced to under promises that we could finish.

*Electronegativity (ability to oxidize other substances) increases left to right and decreases top to bottom.

[jpanhalt]

Does anyone want to poison themselves with sulphur dioxide?

Just put some epsom salts in a bit of hot water, mix it in, then use steel electrodes, its what they gassed the jews with.   

Troll.