Author Topic: Grumpy rant #783  (Read 13915 times)

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Offline coppice

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #125 on: October 15, 2023, 08:53:37 pm »
From what i know this is a real problem for the higher Power over Ethernet modes that also run at 48 volt, but "just" about 2 amps.
You are supposed to turn the power off before you unplug the cable, or the connectors might take arcing damage.
If its real standards compliant POE (there are cheap bodgy things loosely called POE) there is only a full 48V after negotiation. The powered device has to be able to start up in a low voltage low power mode to perform the negotiation. So, plugging in is OK. This is similar to USB power delivery. For both ethernet and USB its disconnecting which can lead to arcing. Bad, but at least you don't get huge inrush hits.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #126 on: October 15, 2023, 08:55:13 pm »
Yes, you're never going to get 48V from USB-C before it has been fully negotiated, so it won't happen when plugging. OTOH, it's going to happen when unplugging.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #127 on: October 15, 2023, 08:57:13 pm »
This could all end up as another TikTok challenge, but not as exciting as a 240 V arc.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #128 on: October 15, 2023, 09:09:27 pm »
This could all end up as another TikTok challenge, but not as exciting as a 240 V arc.
Could lead to an interesting story arc.
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #129 on: October 16, 2023, 09:57:57 am »
From what i know this is a real problem for the higher Power over Ethernet modes that also run at 48 volt, but "just" about 2 amps.
You are supposed to turn the power off before you unplug the cable, or the connectors might take arcing damage.
If its real standards compliant POE (there are cheap bodgy things loosely called POE) there is only a full 48V after negotiation. The powered device has to be able to start up in a low voltage low power mode to perform the negotiation. So, plugging in is OK. This is similar to USB power delivery. For both ethernet and USB its disconnecting which can lead to arcing. Bad, but at least you don't get huge inrush hits.
Ugh, don't get me started on all that crap thats called "PoE"...
Look at the IEEE standards that a product supports. If it lists 802.11af (PoE), at (PoE+) or bt (PoE++), then you can be reasonably sure it's using proper PoE.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #130 on: October 16, 2023, 10:07:18 am »
Perhaps the standard will require 48VDC cables/devices to have 'staggered' comms pins, and the load peripheral can be designed to detect cable removal before it is actually removed from the conductors, turning off the SMPS near instantly.  The TikTok challenge then comes, can you pull a cable out fast enough to get an arc and ruin your device/cable in record time...
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #131 on: October 16, 2023, 05:34:21 pm »
I have a usb socket on one outlet and I got rather annoyed as I couldn't find one that supports fast charging ports, they all seemed to be just the standard usb port that cant power much other that the fruit based products.

It's only there for the oldies to charge thier phones and watches as there was too many usb chargers floating about making a mess in the kitchen.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #132 on: October 17, 2023, 01:40:09 am »
Beware, the standard may mandate to have our own implanted USB-C port at one point or another. I mean, it's USB-C. I'm not disclosing the location. It's gonna save the planet, or something. Maybe we should have a "USB-C day", to celebrate.
 

Offline ConnecteurTopic starter

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #133 on: October 17, 2023, 02:04:00 am »
By the time we get to USB 5 or 6, there might be a variant with a larger plug.  Not everything needs to fit in a smartphone.
Nothing so monstrous as the UK plug; something like the US 2-prong plug in size would be good.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #134 on: October 17, 2023, 05:53:13 am »
Future versions of USB will gradually morph into the IEEC (kettle) lead we are all accustomed to. Then some clever sod will invent a new cable for communicating and powering small items.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #135 on: October 17, 2023, 05:12:46 pm »
This is remotely related.

Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
--
So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2023, 05:22:17 pm »
By the time we get to USB 5 or 6, there might be a variant with a larger plug.  Not everything needs to fit in a smartphone.
Nothing so monstrous as the UK plug; something like the US 2-prong plug in size would be good.

And then mankind will progress to the next stage:  NEMA 5-15.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #137 on: October 17, 2023, 05:47:15 pm »
By the time we get to USB 5 or 6, there might be a variant with a larger plug.  Not everything needs to fit in a smartphone.
Nothing so monstrous as the UK plug; something like the US 2-prong plug in size would be good.

It's not about the plug, it's about the feasibility and cost of the house wiring used to distribute low voltage @ high current to all of the sockets, which I covered in some detail in reply #117. You just don't seem to get it, or worse, just choose to ignore it as inconvenient to your argument grumpy rant!

Get off your silly UK plug grudge and start understanding the technical issues of what you are proposing (power distribution at USB levels rather than mains around the house).
« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 06:14:26 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline Veteran68

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #138 on: October 17, 2023, 07:59:57 pm »
I have a usb socket on one outlet and I got rather annoyed as I couldn't find one that supports fast charging ports, they all seemed to be just the standard usb port that cant power much other that the fruit based products.

It's only there for the oldies to charge thier phones and watches as there was too many usb chargers floating about making a mess in the kitchen.

Not sure of UK availability (with your plug configuration maybe it's not feasible to fit everything necessary into an outlet?) but I just got this one to try. Haven't installed it yet. I have a number of the regular 2.4A USB-A outlet combos.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BQ6VDH68
 

Offline ConnecteurTopic starter

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #139 on: October 17, 2023, 11:20:48 pm »
I'm disappointed that the engineers couldn't design a safe plug without making it hideously bulky and awkward.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #140 on: October 17, 2023, 11:55:43 pm »
American engineers did this years ago with the current NEMA 5-15, etc.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #141 on: October 18, 2023, 01:06:40 am »
I'm disappointed that the engineers couldn't design a safe plug without making it hideously bulky and awkward.
Let me guess. You've stepped on a UK plug recently, and you're still pissed off about it? That's their only real downside. They sit compactly against walls, They sit very securely in their socket. You can use a small rating fuse in them for things, like lamps, with a very thin cord. Every mains plug in the world has its downsides. The UK one is one of the better attempts.
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #142 on: October 18, 2023, 08:38:15 am »
I'm disappointed that the engineers couldn't design a safe plug without making it hideously bulky and awkward.

Is that the best response you can come up with for somebody taking time to help you understand technical background of things?  ::)

You just seem to be trolling by spouting the same silly thing over and over again when things get technical. What relvance does it have for you anyway? if your country flag is to be believed you're in France.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #143 on: October 18, 2023, 11:56:26 am »
I'm disappointed that the engineers couldn't design a safe plug without making it hideously bulky and awkward.
Let me guess. You've stepped on a UK plug recently, and you're still pissed off about it? That's their only real downside. They sit compactly against walls, They sit very securely in their socket. You can use a small rating fuse in them for things, like lamps, with a very thin cord. Every mains plug in the world has its downsides. The UK one is one of the better attempts.

In 40 years I have stood on 1 or 2 UK plugs when not wearing shoes. It's not something you want to repeat but it's like stubbing your toe, you dont plan on doing it but it happens.

I like my UK plug and happy to stay with it.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
--
So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #144 on: October 18, 2023, 12:23:09 pm »
You just seem to be trolling by spouting the same silly thing over and over again when things get technical. What relevance does it have for you anyway? if your country flag is to be believed you're in France.
Its not.  A review of his posting history leads to a strong suspicion he's a north American francophile. 
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #145 on: October 18, 2023, 03:02:24 pm »
One popular series of connectors for civilized AC power distribution that has not been discussed in this rambling thread comprises the "IEC C13/C14" connectors that are now ubiquitous on computers and test equipment that have a line filter at the power input.
These connectors are somewhat smaller in physical size than the NEMA connector of similar rating, and much smaller than the standard UK plug.
Normally, the appliance/equipment manufacturer fits a male connector to his equipment, and supplies a power cord (typically rated for 6 A) with the mating female at one end, and the national standard male plug (UK, NEMA, etc.) at the other end, to plug into the customer's wall outlet.
Before I retired, when we assembled systems for export that comprised commercial computers and monitors along with our own control and detector interface hardware, we used outlet strips on the console that had multiple female IEC connectors and one male connector.  IEC C13 to C14 cords (readily available) were used to power the computers, and we then had to purchase only one specific cord to match the customer's country-standard outlet.
I assume that the specific size and shape of these connectors were chosen so that they were not identical to any single country's standard, so nobody could gripe about using a foreign country's standard.
My only problem with this was that use of that connector did not directly specify what voltage range (120 or 240 V) was intended, so some care in implementation was required.
As I remember, the only commercial equipment we supplied that was not usable at both of those voltages were some computer printers, which had to be ordered for 120 or 240 V specifically.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #146 on: October 18, 2023, 03:55:14 pm »
Quote
IEC C13/C14
Its got its place,but also its problems,mainly theres some that are rated for 10A and some for 6A,so very easy to overload a circuit,and  then  theres the c15/c16 leading to more confusion as to wot plugs into wot. Finally even decent brands are pita to wire,its almost impossible to get keep the earth wire longer than the live and neutral.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #147 on: October 18, 2023, 04:53:10 pm »
Yes, I've wondered about getting a server rack style C13/C14 power strip to squeeze lots of outlets into a small space in my lab, but I wouldn't be happy unless they [Edit: the strip wasn't] going through a 13A fused plug.

The other problem would be cable projection out of the back compared to the low projection of a standard UK plug. I know you can get right angle ones but you can bet that stuff with molded on plugs would come with straight ones. The only place we have used them is the traditional kettle plug (before the advent of bases), hence they are often still called kettle leads over here. Those are the 10A 'hot condition' variant.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2023, 05:22:50 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #148 on: October 18, 2023, 05:12:32 pm »
Quote
The only place we have used them is the traditional kettle plug (before the advent of bases), hence they are often still called kettle leads over here. Those are the 10A 'hot condition' variant.
kettles are supposed to use  c15/16,with a slot/pin, to stop you using a normal c13
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Grumpy rant #783
« Reply #149 on: October 18, 2023, 05:20:21 pm »
Yes sorry, you're right.
Best Regards, Chris
 


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