Grumpy rant #783

[Gyro]

I can't say I'm a fan of USB power socket outlets.

- Firstly they become part of the house permanent wiring, constantly drawing standby current*, multiplied by how many room outlets?
- Secondly, they restrict insulation testing of the house wiring installation (without going around and disconnecting and looping out each one).
- Thirdly there has to be an to increased fire risk as socket quality and dodgy knock-offs fakes falls off the cliff to lowest cost. Not to mention spurious RCD tripping on circuits (with fridges, freezers etc) when one goes rougue.
- Fourthly, ncreased replacement cost - by an Electrician for most consumers  / countries.

The idea of installing USB wiring around the house, presumably from some master PSU, with multiple outputs in the case of USB-C (you don't want all of your 5V devices getting hit with higher USB voltages when one device requests them), seems like a non starter to me. The cable csa needed to maintain USB voltage tolerance specs at low voltage and  high current just doesn't sound economical.

Far better to have a nice rugged mains outlet and plug format ( ), capable of supporting a modern plug top adapter that can be plugged in and removed as required.

*

[themadhippy]

- Secondly, they restrict insulation testing of the house wiring installation (without going around and disconnecting and looping out each one).

Cant recall the make,but someone was touting  a socket were the usb could be turned off for testing,fine for initial verification but come on, how many unscrew every socket on a periodic test,and it seems mk have made  the same mistake with the new smart socket.

[coppice]

- Firstly they become part of the house permanent wiring, constantly drawing standby current*, multiplied by how many room outlets?

This depends a lot on design quality. If each thing sitting in a power socket - USB outlet, power monitor, wifi switch, etc - takes a only a few milliwatts of standby power, which they could, you need a lot of them to take even 1W. That's fine. The snag is just how well most of these things are actually designed for standby power? The EU seems addicted to efficiency marking products. They really should do something here. This one might actually be useful.

- Secondly, they restrict insulation testing of the house wiring installation (without going around and disconnecting and looping out each one).

Do these things even comply with the wiring regulations in any country requiring full testing of installation quality? Don't those tests usually require all the appliances be disconnected for testing?

- Thirdly there has to be an to increased fire risk as socket quality and dodgy knock-offs fakes falls off the cliff to lowest cost. Not to mention spurious RCD tripping on circuits (with fridges, freezers etc) when one goes rougue.

This is a BIG BIG issue. Even the well known brands of electrical fittings seem to be sourcing their electronics packed fittings from less than top tier sources,

- Fourthly, increased replacement cost - by an Electrician for most consumers  / countries.

The typical lifetime of a USB socket, both from a wearout point of view and a relevance point of view, is going to be far less than simple electrical fittings. Most of the USB supply loaded sockets fitted to date are already standing idle, because they don't output enough power to suit 2023's needs. They will be playing catch up for years, as people's expectations of USB keep moving on.

[Gyro]

- Firstly they become part of the house permanent wiring, constantly drawing standby current*, multiplied by how many room outlets?

This depends a lot on design quality. If each thing sitting in a power socket - USB outlet, power monitor, wifi switch, etc - takes a only a few milliwatts of standby power, which they could, you need a lot of them to take even 1W. That's fine. The snag is just how well most of these things are actually designed for standby power? The EU seems addicted to efficiency marking products. They really should do something here. This one might actually be useful.

From the video, they pull about 1W each with no load. Multiply that by maybe 20+ in a new build...

- Secondly, they restrict insulation testing of the house wiring installation (without going around and disconnecting and looping out each one).

Do these things even comply with the wiring regulations in any country requiring full testing of installation quality? Don't those tests usually require all the appliances be disconnected for testing?

Yes, that's the traditional method, disconnect everything and insulation test at 500V. Any circuit that has active items that can't be disconnected must either be insulation tested at a lower voltage (230V) or put down as a limitation (untested) on the EICR report. What with modern wireless LED lighting controls, USB outlets [Edit: and smart sockets as themadhippy says], there will hardly be a circuit left that can be properly insulation tested. As far as compliance, yes I believe they are covered in the IEE wiring regs.

[coppice]

- Firstly they become part of the house permanent wiring, constantly drawing standby current*, multiplied by how many room outlets?

This depends a lot on design quality. If each thing sitting in a power socket - USB outlet, power monitor, wifi switch, etc - takes a only a few milliwatts of standby power, which they could, you need a lot of them to take even 1W. That's fine. The snag is just how well most of these things are actually designed for standby power? The EU seems addicted to efficiency marking products. They really should do something here. This one might actually be useful.

From the video, they pull about 1W each with no load. Multiply that by maybe 20+ in a new build...

1W or 1VA? 1W would be a ridiculous amount of idle power in a small PSU. 1VA is more understandable, as the low load PF can be awful in simple supplies.

[Gyro]

Looking closely at the settings on the Hameg power meter in the video, that's 1W, not VA.

[themadhippy]

From the video, they pull about 1W each with no load. Multiply that by maybe 20+ in a new build...

And if the new build is fitted with the latest afdi rcd mcb combos that take about the same power you could be looking at 5kw  a week,before you plug anything in.

[Gyro]

Yep. I'm still struggling to reconcile the overnight background load in our house since having the smart meter installed a couple of years back. Things like the RCBOs as you say, idle load of bathroom fans, Wiser heating controller, boiler etc, aside from the stuff like the router that I could unplug (but would be a pain in the ass). There are certainly not going to be any USB outlets going in!

[Connecteur]

If the government mandates it, all new wiring will require it.

[Gyro]

Why would the government mandate it? For the reasons listed above, it makes no [Edit: practical or implementational] sense.

[coppice]

Why would the government mandate it? For the reasons listed above, it makes no [Edit: practical or implementational] sense.

There have been a lot of things in the UK wiring regulations that only seemed to be there to force people to buy stuff.

[themadhippy]

There have been a lot of things in the UK wiring regulations that only seemed to be there to force people to buy stuff.

The regs aint retrospective (nor statutory) so if your told your old wylex rewireable fuseboard  is illegal  then  the smell of  bullshit  is in the  air.

[TimFox]

If the government mandates it, all new wiring will require it.

Therefore, all good men should strive to keep the government from listening to twerps like you about what to mandate.

[AVGresponding]

There have been a lot of things in the UK wiring regulations that only seemed to be there to force people to buy stuff.

The regs aint retrospective (nor statutory) so if your told your old wylex rewireable fuseboard  is illegal  then  the smell of  bullshit  is in the  air.

Indeed, but if you do something that doesn't comply with the regs and someone gets hurt/property is damaged, you might be in for a bad time in court.

You can keep your Wylex rewireable board if it's your property and you live there, if you rent it out it'll have to be replaced.

[Gyro]

Why would the government mandate it? For the reasons listed above, it makes no [Edit: practical or implementational] sense.

There have been a lot of things in the UK wiring regulations that only seemed to be there to force people to buy stuff.

I don't think @Connecteur has the slightest clue when he talks about "new houses going forward could be wired with safe USB throughout the house, but higher wattage appliances could be wired directly to high-current power" (reply#84). Looking at the latest USB-C spec, it specifies 5A @ 48V for 240W maximum. Other lower voltages demand 5A capability too. That means that for every three Dual USB-C outlets we're looking at 30A max. Now for a mains 30A radial circuit (I don't think anyone would be suggesting USB ring mains at this point!) we're looking at 4mm² (clipped direct) or 6mm² (surrounded by thermal insulation) for current handling and acceptable voltage drop (relative to mains) over normal domestic distances.

For the tighter voltage tolerance requirements of USB, we're going to be looking at a minimum of 6mm² cabling, and thats just for three dual outlets, now multiply that by the actual number of outlets in a house. There's no way anyone is going to mandate putting that volume of copper into a house. ELV USB wiring is never going to replace mains wiring for non-fixed appliances, the losses, cable csa, and currents would simply be to large (higher than the fixed appliances at mains voltage). It wouldn't even be safer - more high current wiring terminations to that many outlets in a radial circuit would be more of a fire risk.

The idea is in cloud cuckoo land.

[tom66]

Does anyone else think that 48V DC on the USB-C connector, especially at 5A, is asking for trouble?  It seems like the small pins on device and cable would pit pretty quickly if it is removed while in use.   There's a lot of potential for arcing upon removal there.

[Gyro]

I seem to get through a lot of USB-C leads and changing insertion orientation to keep my phone reliably rapid charging (which, for my phone, is a mere 10W), I even keep a dust cover on it... So yes, I do!

[coppice]

There have been a lot of things in the UK wiring regulations that only seemed to be there to force people to buy stuff.

The regs aint retrospective (nor statutory) so if your told your old wylex rewireable fuseboard  is illegal  then  the smell of  bullshit  is in the  air.

Was that supposed to be a response to what I wrote? Seems like a random response.

[themadhippy]

Seems like a random response.

i was pointing out your not forced to buy stuff/upgrade your installation regardless of reg changes

if you rent it out it'll have to be replaced.

No you wont, as long theirs a current  test ticket your good to go.

[Connecteur]

Does anyone else think that 48V DC on the USB-C connector, especially at 5A, is asking for trouble?  It seems like the small pins on device and cable would pit pretty quickly if it is removed while in use.   There's a lot of potential for arcing upon removal there.

I'm not sure if 48V is too much for USB-C, but if it passed certification, it's probably fine.  The overall size is to accommodate small devices, but some sort of wider socket might be designed to handle more wattage, while still being compatible with older USB-C plugs. We've had something similar before with the Micro-B 3.1 Gen2 double connector.

[AVGresponding]

Seems like a random response.

i was pointing out your not forced to buy stuff/upgrade your installation regardless of reg changes

if you rent it out it'll have to be replaced.

No you wont, as long theirs a current  test ticket your good to go.

You won't get one, it'll be a C1, fail.

EDIT: You won't get a legit one*

[themadhippy]

You won't get one, it'll be a C1, fail.

Why? The very first page of the big  book of rules  says the regs dont apply  retrospectivaly  and as long as it meets the requirements for the time of installation its all good.

[SiliconWizard]

The idea is in cloud cuckoo land.

Which in itself is alarming evidence that it's likely to happen.

[Ranayna]

Does anyone else think that 48V DC on the USB-C connector, especially at 5A, is asking for trouble?  It seems like the small pins on device and cable would pit pretty quickly if it is removed while in use.   There's a lot of potential for arcing upon removal there.

From what i know this is a real problem for the higher Power over Ethernet modes that also run at 48 volt, but "just" about 2 amps.
You are supposed to turn the power off before you unplug the cable, or the connectors might take arcing damage.

Ok, the connectors are not designed with any kind of disconnect order, unlike USB, but they use much larger contacts.
So yes, i would assume there is a risk of arcing damage if you unplug a USB-C connection that is actively supplying 240 watts.

[AndyBeez]

Big Clive just did an AMPS LOAD TEST on a Chinesium power cord. Worth a look if you like melty fiery things.