Grumpy rant #783

[Connecteur]

Brits love to think their electrical plugs are the best in the world.
No, they are not. Most plugs are not unsafe whatsoever. They are simply less stupidly overdesigned.

[tom66]

Those are fighting words!   

BS1363 is a good plug and while bulky this does carry the advantage of ruggedness.  You will break your food before you break the plug.

A decent plug is Schuko, but it has other issues like lack of polarisation in most cases.

The Australian plugs have the nice advantage of plugs being backwards compatible up to high current ratings, which is something BS1363 never made any accommodation for. 

[Connecteur]

A rubber car would sound good to some of these guys.

[Kjelt]

All mains plugs in the continents I visited have something imperfect.
For all (most) designs are 100+ years old 
If you look at modern connectors for 230V most have a form of wire strain relief are way smaller and can handle higher currents.

But the same as why modern homes still do not have a low dc supply for charging all the small stuff and for led lighting it is because changes have a huge impact.

[themadhippy]

Biggest issue with the uk plug is standing on one,barefooted ,apart from that there most excellent,and i do likes how  you can stack the aussie plugs up like a leaning tower of pizza ,who needs a double socket? As for the rest ?no thanks, i mean the shuko what a great idea lets use a non polarised plug on our table lamps with an ES base what could possible go wrong? And then theres the 101 different plugs the americans decided they need,all made of metal that bends if  you look at it wrong and cables exiting 90 degrees to the socket ,nah. I could live with the south african  system ,after all its based on the third best system in the world,the uk's old 15A plug and socket.

[TimFox]

Can you enumerate the 101 plugs in use in the USA?
For domestic use at 15 A @ 120 V, we use the NEMA 5-15, sometimes called 5-15P to indicate "plug".
https://ev-lectron.com/blogs/blog/what-is-nema-5-15-plug

[ejeffrey]

But the same as why modern homes still do not have a low dc supply for charging all the small stuff and for led lighting it is because changes have a huge impact.

Also, it's not at all obvious thats a good idea.  What voltage would it be?  Some people would want 5V as USB, others 12V since that's the primary output of most computer power supplies.  Laptops generally use about 20. Realistically 5V and 12 V are too low to distribute even across the size of a house, even for low power applications.  24V and above start arcing like crazy unless you have smart switching and/or heavily limit bus capacitance. 

In almost all cases you would still need a step-down converter at the loads.  You would be able to use non-isolated buck converters, and save on safety isolation, but it's not clear to me that is a huge deal.

[themadhippy]

Can you enumerate the 101 plugs in use in the USA?

And that dont include the 2 pin  earth not included ,or  twist and pray hubbles  i've  encountered   with american electrical system,although admittedly the hubbles were on an american base in the uk, not actual yankyland.

[TimFox]

Yes, for 120 V service, the NEMA 5-15 and 5-20 wall sockets can both be used with the 5-15 plug, which is found on virtually all 120 V appliances in the US.
The extra groove on the 5-20 indicates that the circuit breaker on that circuit is 20 A, while the 5-15 is fed from a 15 A breaker.
I'm sure they exist, but I don't own any 5-20 plugs that will not mate with the 5-15 socket.
The others you show are much rarer, since 240 V circuits are not common in household circuits (except for air conditioners).
Even larger plugs are used with electric clothes dryers that need more than 20 A:  typical 30 A at 240 V.
Ungrounded 120 V outlets are no longer permitted in new household wiring.
We are far from the mythical 101 types that you suggested.
When visiting the US, how many wall outlets did you see that were not NEMA 5-15 or 5-20?

My favorite use for the BS1363 socket was in a hotel bathroom in Saudi Arabia, where the exhaust fan was powered through two stripped ends of a zip-cord power cable that were inserted in the power sockets, held in place by the safety spring that had been opened by inserting a screwdriver into the ground socket to move the shutter.
I contemplated that connection while seated below the fan.

[TimFox]

But the same as why modern homes still do not have a low dc supply for charging all the small stuff and for led lighting it is because changes have a huge impact.

Also, it's not at all obvious thats a good idea.  What voltage would it be?  Some people would want 5V as USB, others 12V since that's the primary output of most computer power supplies.  Laptops generally use about 20. Realistically 5V and 12 V are too low to distribute even across the size of a house, even for low power applications.  24V and above start arcing like crazy unless you have smart switching and/or heavily limit bus capacitance. 

In almost all cases you would still need a step-down converter at the loads.  You would be able to use non-isolated buck converters, and save on safety isolation, but it's not clear to me that is a huge deal.

I have seen wall outlets in the US, typically in hotel rooms, that included a USB connector for charging.
I assume the cheap LV circuit is in the outlet box behind the socket.
It is also very common to include USB charging outlets in outlet strips, used instead of extension cords that include a local circuit breaker.

[themadhippy]

I assume the cheap LV circuit is in the outlet box behind the socket.

In the uk at least there built into the socket,which introduces its own problems with heat  build up,the need for a deeper back box and  having to removing them when testing the circuit

[coppice]

A decent plug is Schuko, but it has other issues like lack of polarisation in most cases.

The 2 pin Schuko has a nice positive fit, unlike the US 2 pin that dangles and falls out too easily. It shrouds the pins which is good, compared to the US plugs. It has 2 downsides, though. The 3 pin plugs can have a somewhat iffy earth connection, and the lead sticks out the back. With the UK and China/Australian plugs pushed into a wall socket the lead hangs neatly against the wall. The Schuko lead sticks out, and is easily whacked by furniture and other things.

[wraper]

But the same as why modern homes still do not have a low dc supply for charging all the small stuff and for led lighting it is because changes have a huge impact.

Frankly putting such stuff into your home was impractical with ever changing charging technology. Say you had 5V charging sockets, they sort of can charge modern phones but at very low speed and some phones will pull more current than PSU can safely supply, often tripping protection and endlessly power cycling. Placing some permanent installation which you need to replace every few years is not the smartest thing to do, not to say most of the charging sockets available today are totally outdated. For laptops it's even worse. With a lack of common standard, it would be nearly useless and prone to destroying devices. USB-C PD probably will change that.

[wraper]

The Schuko lead sticks out, and is easily whacked by furniture and other things.

The vast majority of Schuko plugs have cable going out at 90^o angle.

[SiliconWizard]

But the same as why modern homes still do not have a low dc supply for charging all the small stuff and for led lighting it is because changes have a huge impact.

Frankly putting such stuff into your home was impractical with ever changing charging technology ever changing. Say you had 5V charging sockets, they sort of can charge modern phones but at very low speed and some phones will pull more current than PSU can safely supply. Placing some permanent installation which you need to replace every few years is not the smartest thing to do, not to say most of the charging sockets available today are totally outdated. For laptops it's even worse. With a lack of common standard, it would be nearly useless and prone to destroying devices.

Yep. It wouldn't add any value. You can still install mains sockets with USB charging ports (those sockets can easily be changed and are not very expensive) if you want it integrated in your wall. Or just use external chargers just like we do, that have the benefit of being usable anywhere.

USB-C PD probably will change that.

USB-C PD will keep being revised just like any other previous standards, so that if you made that part of home mains installations, that would become "obsolete" (at least in the sense of not being able to provide as much power as the more recent revisions, thus being unusable with some potential newer devices) over time anyway.

The reason mains AC has been the norm for a long time and still the norm is that it's the most reasonable common denominator for distributing electricity that can adapt to pretty much anything without requiring a constant stream of changes.
If it became suddenly *mandatory* to equip new homes with USB-C PD ports, then it would by nature make that planned obsolescence that would require updates every few years, while an AC installation can last for decades.
OTOH again, anyone who wants USB-C PD ports in some wall sockets can install them for a relatively reasonable cost, then it is their decision and their responsibility.

Like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Double-Socket-Charging-Screwless-Design/dp/B09SVGDDK4
these are available all over the place these days - and the above is dirt cheap, count around 40-50 pounds for one from a major brand.

[wraper]

The worst are protected Schuko sockets. UK plug have protected shutter driven by earth pin and that works very nicely. In Schuko sockets on other hand that is not possible to implement, so they rely on both prongs pushed into the holes simultaneously. It's not reliable at all and cheap sockets often are extremely difficult to plug in, especially after some wear happened. Extremely bad with unearthed plugs with thinner prongs which often even get bent while trying to plug in. More expensive sockets are more or less OK but mechanism still is a shitty workaround. I prefer buying extension cords with unprotected sockets when available.

[wraper]

USB-C PD will keep being revised just like any other previous standards, so that if you made that part of home mains installations, that would become "obsolete" (at least in the sense of not being able to provide as much power as the more recent revisions, thus being unusable with some potential newer devices) over time anyway.

While it likely will be revised, current standard is good enough for most of things and is quite future proof if manufacturers do backwards capability properly.

OTOH again, anyone who wants USB-C PD ports in some wall sockets can install them for a relatively reasonable cost, then it is their decision and their responsibility.

If there is any socket that can supply 240W according to current standard, IMHO it should be capable charging anything in foreseeable future.

[mansaxel]

A decent plug is Schuko, but it has other issues like lack of polarisation in most cases.

The reader is reminded of the fact that we usually are conveying alternating current over these plugs, which means that polarisation is wrong 50 or 60 times per second. Hence, "polarisation" is for people who still think in DC. The only wise move is to regard the two pins as equally dangerous and untouchable. All other moves are loser moves.  (Three-phase is another game, of course. But since the english-speaking world is afraid of it, because Edison, most people never get to have it. )

[themadhippy]

The reader is reminded of the fact that we usually are conveying alternating current over these plugs, which means that polarisation is wrong 50 or 60 times per second.

so what if its changing 50 or 60 times a second,in most parts of the world one of those pins is carrying a nasty surprise to earth if you grab it,the other maybe a faint tickle so only being able to plug it in one way around becomes rather important in certain cases.

[TimFox]

A decent plug is Schuko, but it has other issues like lack of polarisation in most cases.

The reader is reminded of the fact that we usually are conveying alternating current over these plugs, which means that polarisation is wrong 50 or 60 times per second. Hence, "polarisation" is for people who still think in DC. The only wise move is to regard the two pins as equally dangerous and untouchable. All other moves are loser moves.  (Three-phase is another game, of course. But since the english-speaking world is afraid of it, because Edison, most people never get to have it. )

In this context, "polarization" refers to non-interchange of Line and Neutral power connections.
In the US, the NEMA 5-15 series uses a wider flat blade for Neutral than the flat blade used for Line:  this is a useful requirement, but I have seen badly-installed sockets where that was violated.
(Of course, the "third prong" is ground or PE.)
Three-phase AC is readily available in commercial and industrial locations in the US, an English-speaking country, but the utilities try not to install it in single-family residential neighborhoods (defined by municipal zoning ordinances).

[AVGresponding]

A decent plug is Schuko, but it has other issues like lack of polarisation in most cases.

The reader is reminded of the fact that we usually are conveying alternating current over these plugs, which means that polarisation is wrong 50 or 60 times per second. Hence, "polarisation" is for people who still think in DC. The only wise move is to regard the two pins as equally dangerous and untouchable. All other moves are loser moves.  (Three-phase is another game, of course. But since the english-speaking world is afraid of it, because Edison, most people never get to have it. )

Not quite; neutral in the UK is at earth potential (or should be...), the phase alternates between positive and negative wrt this. Still a bad idea to touch it of course, for numerous reasons.

[janoc]

A decent plug is Schuko, but it has other issues like lack of polarisation in most cases.

The reader is reminded of the fact that we usually are conveying alternating current over these plugs, which means that polarisation is wrong 50 or 60 times per second. Hence, "polarisation" is for people who still think in DC. The only wise move is to regard the two pins as equally dangerous and untouchable. All other moves are loser moves.  (Three-phase is another game, of course. But since the english-speaking world is afraid of it, because Edison, most people never get to have it. )

And they are equally dangerous and untouchable because even if you touch neutral you could still get a lethal zap, depending on the local installation standard (neutral isn't tied to earth everywhere!), the condition of the wiring/earthing, etc.

There are also the popular and very commonplace (except in Germany, AFAIK, where they are illegal because of the extra mechanical load they put on outlets) T-shape splitters that often swap live and neutral on one side. Same as many outlets that are installed incorrectly, with the live and neutral swapped around. So anything designed in a way that relies on/requires polarization of the plug would be unsafe, making its absence pretty much a non-issue in practice.

The two pin Europlug (CEE 7/16)  is explicitly designed only for doubly insulated  equipment where this is not an issue.

[themadhippy]

So anything designed in a way that relies on/requires polarization of the plug would be unsafe

edison screw lamp bases

[AndyBeez]

Brits love to think their electrical plugs are the best in the world.
No, they are not. Most plugs are not unsafe whatsoever. They are simply less stupidly overdesigned.

What really annoys the British is when the freaking Chinese try to copy our beloved 13 Amp plugs designed to an ancient British Standard
and still manage to get it dangerously wrong.

See this picture. So can you spot was is not correct? And which describes your reaction?

Not British reaction     

British reaction

I mean, it's like the British just stepped on a British plug 

[mansaxel]

The reader is reminded of the fact that we usually are conveying alternating current over these plugs, which means that polarisation is wrong 50 or 60 times per second.

so what if its changing 50 or 60 times a second,in most parts of the world one of those pins is carrying a nasty surprise to earth if you grab it,the other maybe a faint tickle so only being able to plug it in one way around becomes rather important in certain cases.

"The only wise move is to regard the two pins as equally dangerous and untouchable. All other moves are loser moves. "