Grumpy rant #783

[DavidAlfa]

I prefer the Australia sad outlets. The higher the power the sadder they get.
They probably were designed in times where electric energy was really expensive!

[TimFox]

Yes, we have "high power" in industrial and commercial locations as well.
Please parse my statement literally:  I was comparing 240 V to 120 V, and 240 > 120 in all nations.
This .pdf file lists the standard voltages available in Chicago
 Commonwealth Edison Service Voltages.pdf (33.78 kB - downloaded 26 times.)

Is 34 kV enough for you?

[TimFox]

By the way, a typical US home-kitchen electric stove, with four burners and an oven, runs on 240 V (line-line) single phase, pulling 22.5 kW and requiring a 50 A circuit.
If it plugs in, the US outlet is a four-contact NEMA 14-50R.

[themadhippy]

That would work well with the infamous 3 kW British tea kettles.
100 A requires, perhaps, AWG 0 = 8.25 mm diam = 53.5 mm2 wire.

the plug would be bigger than the kettle

[TimFox]

In the US, I think the "regular" NEMA series only goes up to 60 A, for AWG 4 wires.  It is roughly 2.5 inch diameter.
A "pin and sleeve" NEMA 4X for 100 A is roughly 3 inch diameter.
https://rexel-cdn.com/products/platt-vendor-pr8-cutsheet.pdf?i=42F563FE-CF24-4A8F-BCCA-F1FADEDD6A29
It would make the tea kettle difficult to use.

[themadhippy]

In the US, I think the "regular" NEMA series only goes up to 60 A, for AWG 4 wires.  It is roughly 2.5 inch diameter.
A "pin and sleeve" NEMA 4X for 100 A is roughly 3 inch diameter

our standard connector  for larger power is the ceeform(IEC 60309) a 125A 3 pin would be about 4" in diameter and 12" long

[Connecteur]

I say that worldwide everyone should switch to 30 volts DC.  Best and safest current for all purposes.

That would work well with the infamous 3 kW British tea kettles.
100 A requires, perhaps, AWG 0 = 8.25 mm diam = 53.5 mm² wire.

You can keep your clunky plugs for kettles and such.  Most everything else can run on safe current.

[TimFox]

By the way, a typical US home-kitchen electric stove, with four burners and an oven, runs on 240 V (line-line) single phase, pulling 22.5 kW and requiring a 50 A circuit.
If it plugs in, the US outlet is a four-contact NEMA 14-50R.

Interesting! Thanks for the insight.

Btw. reading about US plugs I learned about "outlet challenge" which involves partially inserting the brick portion of a mobile device charger into a wall outlet and then sliding a penny down onto the brick's exposed metal prongs. The result is a blast of electrical sparks. 

Yes, social media are popular among the clever young people.

[fourfathom]

This is how we do it in California:

[John B]

I prefer the Australia sad outlets. The higher the power the sadder they get.
They probably were designed in times where electric energy was really expensive!

I've never seen most of them in person, I guess most are outdated.

I do however have a UPS with one of these plugs:



I've had a couple of conversations with the electrician on whether I can get this hooked up in the house. The plugs are rated for 32A but I'll only be pulling 25A tops.

[Someone]

I've never seen most of them in person, I guess most are outdated.

I do however have a UPS with one of these plugs:

I've had a couple of conversations with the electrician on whether I can get this hooked up in the house. The plugs are rated for 32A but I'll only be pulling 25A tops.

Thats an AS3123 series "industrial" plug, like the residential/commercial sockets they have some rather elegant scaling/interconnection where a universal socket can support a wide range of plugs, or a limited socket mechanically self restricts what can be plugged in. 2 sizes of shell in common use, 10-20A and 32-50A. Wikipedia says there are larger 50-80 and 100-200 series but I've never seen them. Simpler than the EU or US schemes.

They're going to be much more common in residential settings with uptake of electric cars.

[antenna]

I got a deal on this one!

[AndyBeez]

I assume in America that fan runs at half the speed?

[antenna]

I assume in America that fan runs at half the speed?

We don't plan for much more than half speed from Chinese fans anyway, so it did meet expectations.

[tom66]

A decent plug is Schuko, but it has other issues like lack of polarisation in most cases.

The reader is reminded of the fact that we usually are conveying alternating current over these plugs, which means that polarisation is wrong 50 or 60 times per second. Hence, "polarisation" is for people who still think in DC. The only wise move is to regard the two pins as equally dangerous and untouchable. All other moves are loser moves.  (Three-phase is another game, of course. But since the english-speaking world is afraid of it, because Edison, most people never get to have it. )

Most electrical installations in the world tie neutral close to earth*, so neutral will only measure a few volts AC above earth and live will measure +/-320V.

This feature is used in many inexpensive devices, table lamps for instance often only switch the live terminal, so the exposed lamp terminals are safe to touch.  Since UK electrical installations require polarised sockets (which are tested before use) and polarised plugs, this is safe.

If you don't have a polarised socket you need double pole switches everywhere.  Have a look at the devices you own and think how many of them actually use double pole.  Most of the time, double pole is only used for larger appliances with greater safety standards (two switches need to fail to not isolate appliance for instance).

_{*The obvious exception is the USA with its split phase 120V on 240V sockets, but even the USA uses neutral at ~0V and one live conductor for their 120V sockets.  The majority of European countries have neutral close to ~0V.}

[magic]

This is fine, until you lose neutral due to cabling failure or some dumbass swaps phase with neutral upstream of the device.

I have personally seen the latter happen on an old three phase installation, with designated neutral but no safety earth. Lots of fun ensued


This is why civilized people no longer rely on the alleged "safety" of neutral

[themadhippy]

 

some dumbass swaps phase with neutral

Not that uncommon event for a few years post 2004 ,even the dno  got confused

[tom66]

some dumbass swaps phase with neutral

Not that uncommon event for a few years post 2004 ,even the dno  got confused

How?  We have PEN for the majority of homes in the UK.  Swapping live and neutral isn't possible as it would immediately blow the fuse at the substation or at the premises, with a direct path from the PEN terminal to earth in the plumbing.  The only mistake that's possible is live and neutral at the installation, which can be eliminated by socket testers, but requires the electrician to actually use them. I found at least one socket here with L/N swapped, easy fix but silly that it even happened!

[themadhippy]

How?  We have PEN for the majority of homes in the UK.

Apart from those places that are  TNS or TT.

[Connecteur]

I'd like to see a new world standard, but likely it won't happen in my lifetime. 
USB ports are fairly universal, and some variants can deliver up to 240 watts.
Of course a little USB C plug would be ridiculous tor a kettle, but I'd like to see a "big brother" version for higher wattage.
But that's just me.

[coppice]

I'd like to see a new world standard, but likely it won't happen in my lifetime. 
USB ports are fairly universal, and some variants can deliver up to 240 watts.
Of course a little USB C plug would be ridiculous tor a kettle, but I'd like to see a "big brother" version for higher wattage.
But that's just me.

https://xkcd.com/927/

We have a near universal standard for a plug that goes into a kettle, and you want a new one? This persons needs to be kept very far from any standardisation process.

[TimFox]

I'd like to see a new world standard, but likely it won't happen in my lifetime. 
USB ports are fairly universal, and some variants can deliver up to 240 watts.
Of course a little USB C plug would be ridiculous tor a kettle, but I'd like to see a "big brother" version for higher wattage.
But that's just me.

This cartoon is the standard description of this process:
https://xkcd.com/927/

[Coppice found it ahead of me.]

[Connecteur]

I'd like to see a new world standard, but likely it won't happen in my lifetime. 
USB ports are fairly universal, and some variants can deliver up to 240 watts.
Of course a little USB C plug would be ridiculous tor a kettle, but I'd like to see a "big brother" version for higher wattage.
But that's just me.

https://xkcd.com/927/

We have a near universal standard for a plug that goes into a kettle, and you want a new one? This persons needs to be kept very far from any standardisation process.

Since you missed the point, I will reiterate:
Most low-powered applications (electronics, small appliances, LED lighting) could be covered by USB.
A higher wattage standard would be needed for kettles, etc.

[TimFox]

USB-connector chargers for low-power objects are small, and when the standard changes yet again they can be replaced with newer ones.
The NEMA-standard US sockets will remain in place in the US during those transitions.
In other countries, they shall stick with their standards, as well.

[Connecteur]

USB-connector chargers for low-power objects are small, and when the standard changes yet again they can be replaced with newer ones.
The NEMA-standard US sockets will remain in place in the US during those transitions.
In other countries, they shall stick with their standards, as well.

Let's assume that USB will continue to evolve past 240 watts as it is currently.  Is that not enough for most of the things we use in the home?  Why should a toaster or a kettle or a microwave also be compatible with that standard?