Google announcement missing April 1 by a couple of months.

[mrflibble]

Just read this one:

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/12/15/1243213/eric-schmidt-to-avoid-nsa-spying-keep-your-data-in-googles-services

Oh man, this was worth a good hearty laugh.    As for the slashdot replies, I agree 100% with this one...

HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Oh wait! You're serious. Then let me laugh even harder!

HAAAHAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Guess it's time for building my own search engine, with blackjack and hookers.

PS: I realize that Schmidt just has to do the usual commercially induced marketing waffle, but this was just too funny. Yes, I will put my data in t3h cloudz. It will be safe there. Yes. Google is my friend. Ooooohhhhhhmmmmmmmm...

[G7PSK]

I expect that Google and Facebook have always been a good place to hide secrets, especially if coded into photographs, In the UK we have the expression of not being able to see the wood for the trees. So place your secrets out in the crowds. It is when you are obviously trying to hide something that the intelligence services will take notice.

[geppa.dee]

s/stenography/steganography/
and it does help when it's appropriately used

[envisionelec]

Security through obscurity. Or not.

When I lost the key to the lawnmower shed door, I left the lock in place and removed the bolts from the handle so I could remove it and open the doors. In a year, nobody has bothered to steal it. They see a handle with a lock and move on.

[Artlav]

hide secrets

I wonder what sort of secrets people care about, against some faceless government watchers.
We each are a protagonist of our story.
But when you look at the whole - each one is nothing, a drop lost in a sea of information.

Consider how huge is the internet traffic of a single 10 million inhabitant city.
To just parse and categorise it is a monumental task.
To analyse and make sense of it would be utter madness.
You'll need a Jupiter Brain to track every little dirty secret of everyone on the internet and make something happen to annoy each one of them.

So, why bother?

If you communicate with someone who communicates with someone who communicates with someone who is on a watch list somewhere  because they once typed the wrong word your metadata is of interest to them.

Um, isn't everyone within, like, 6 handshakes from everyone else?

[zapta]

of secrets people care about, against some faceless government watchers.
We each are a protagonist of our story.
But when you look at the whole - each one is nothing, a drop lost in a sea of information.

If you have nothing to hide feel free to post here your personal information, bank account etc.

Consider how huge is the internet traffic of a single 10 million inhabitant city.
To just parse and categorise it is a monumental task.
To analyse and make sense of it would be utter madness.
You'll need a Jupiter Brain to track every little dirty secret of everyone on the internet and make something happen to annoy each one of them.

So, why bother?

By logging every aspect of our lives the government creates in practice a virtual dossier on each of us that be assembled at a click of the button. Handling such a large amount of data is not as difficult as you think and most often we don't even know when data about us is used or a politician is blackmailed. That's why the awareness that Snowden created is so important.

(these views are my own, not representing anybody else).

[zapta]

What do you think the massive new data centres that the NSA is building are for? Thanks to Snowden, we know that they do this

MC, I am glad that you prefer personal liberty over 'common good'. My work hear starts to bear fruits. ;-)

[3roomlab]

this reminds me of the wow screenshot thingy

http://www.ownedcore.com/forums/world-of-warcraft/world-of-warcraft-general/375573-looking-inside-your-screenshots.html

[SeanB]

If you communicate with someone who communicates with someone who communicates with someone who is on a watch list somewhere  because they once typed the wrong word your metadata is of interest to them.

Um, isn't everyone within, like, 6 handshakes from everyone else?

Exactly, you are guilty till proven not guilty in this case.

[TerraHertz]

Relevant story:

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/microsoftpri0/2014/12/15/amazon-hp-ebay-join-microsoft-bandwagon-in-warrant-case/
Amazon, HP, eBay join Microsoft bandwagon in warrant case
As extensively telegraphed by Microsoft, the company’s cast of supporters in its legal fight over a warrant seeking a customer’s emails just got a whole lot bigger.
Microsoft was joined by Amazon.com as well as Silicon Valley stalwarts Hewlett-Packard and eBay. Apple, AT&T, Cisco and Verizion, which all supported Microsoft in its lower court case, also weighed in again.

Google, a leader in the cloud-computing realm along with Microsoft and Amazon.com, was among the notable technology companies that haven’t weighed in.

-------------
The NSA's goal is clearly to permanently save all electronic communications from everyone. It's now known they already do that for at least two countries (and I would not be surprised if Australia is one of those.) It's also not about finding 'wrong do-ers', or we would not still have Internet malware of any kind. It's more about pre-crime and thought-crime modeling and prediction. Listening to statements of US government pond-slime like Cass Sunstein is truly terrifying, when you realize these people are seriously attempting to implement that kind of far-beyond-1984 nightmare society.

Personally I bear in mind that an extreme dictatorship only has to eliminate about 10% of the population to suppress any chance of rebellion. The chief difficulty is getting the right 10%. Having a vast archive of all the meta-data PLUS everything everyone said over several years would be *exactly* the right tool for that purpose. Especially if covering years before most people realized how dangerous things were getting.

It's not what they now say they want to do with it, it's what they *will* do with it once they have their Communications Death Star fully operational.

Oh, and for those who think I have an unduly negative view of governments... the Australian government (NSW State and local govt, apparently under instructions from the Federal gov) have recently announced (effectively) that personal property rights no longer matter, and they will be relocating masses of existing homeowners whenever it suits government plans (and personal property investment profits.)
This is personal - if their plan goes ahead (and it will) I'm definitely going to lose my home and workshop.
See http://everist.org/no-rezone/ (my site.)
You can't call it 'conspiracy rubbish' when the stinking plans are online on .gov sites, and there's a timeline of government actions and mainstream news stories going back to 2005.

When the law is used to spy on you, and divest you of your material assets, then there is no longer Rule of Law.

"Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience..."
-- John Locke 1690 2nd Treatise on Government Chapter 19 paragraph 222

[n45048]

The intelligence services actually prefer metadata over the message content in many cases. They like to know who you talk to, where you go to talk, how often you post, that sort of thing. Trying to decode message specifics in bulk could be hard and would, as you point out, be easily thwarted. Metadata is far more valuable to them, and stenography or trying to blend in to the crowd doesn't help at all.

Yes and no. Metadata is a good at collecting a huge amount of data about a large group. But specific targets, actual content is always preferred.

Even Australian state law enforcement agencies utilise/own chip lifters and complex decryption systems for this purpose (if it's not captured over the air or subpoenaed from various companies -- and yes, they do hand it over when it's lawful for them to do so). My question is, encryption is great, but how much of the key do the NSA et al already know and how long does it take to break the rest of it?

Mind you, I actually support law enforcement agencies having access to said data because I've seen first hand the positive results it can yield. That's my personal view. Whilst I take care to protect my privacy and data online (and offline), I have nothing to hide and would make for a very boring target.

[n45048]

The worst part is that it doesn't even work very well. The real threats tend to get missed, even if they are known to the security services. They seem to be swamped with data and unable to make good decisions with what they have.

I don't agree with that at all. I know it's hard to quantify based on publically available information. But many "terror threats" have been detected, investigated and thwarted by Police and other agencies including several in more recent years (I could probably count on one hand incidents in the last 6-12 months). But most of it isn't big news and isn't reported or it's kept under wraps. I'm of the opinion that Australia is in a great position security-wise and we generally have the upper-hand (even more so than other western countries). Consider the recent incident in Sydney, it had a very real potential of being far worse than it was hadn't it have been for years of hard work and the rapid response by the NSW Police.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

The worst part is that it doesn't even work very well. The real threats tend to get missed, even if they are known to the security services.

Seems like you are right.
I must admit I don't know much about how our security services work but if they work anything like other large organisations especially defence then they are run stupidly and inefficiently.
Re: Sydney Seige.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has revealed the gunman responsible for the Sydney siege was not on a security watchlist, despite his long criminal history and known "infatuation with extremism".

  http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-16/sydney-siege-gunman-was-not-on-security-watchlist-abbott-says/5971340
From an outside perspective it seems he should have been at the top of the watchlist. The guy was investigated for murder, among other things.
But i'm not saying I know how to fix this.

[n45048]

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has revealed the gunman responsible for the Sydney siege was not on a security watchlist, despite his long criminal history and known "infatuation with extremism".

  http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-16/sydney-siege-gunman-was-not-on-security-watchlist-abbott-says/5971340
From an outside perspective it seems he should have been at the top of the watchlist. The guy was investigated for murder, among other things.
But i'm not saying I know how to fix this.

How do I put this without getting into trouble? Mr. Abbott is correct in that he wasn't on a watch list (definition?) however based on publically available information he was known to Police and other agencies. Read between the lines... or not.

And just to clarify, he was charged with being an accessory to murder.

[SeanB]

And here he was made chief of police...............

[dannyf]

I am in support of unlimited law enforcement access to such data and strict oversight of such access to avoid abuse.

Liberty requires safe guarding. Sounds like a paradox but there are lots of bad guys out there that can hurt lots of innocent people.

As an accommodation, we can split up the country where people who don't share that view can live where no law enforcement access to such data is possible.

The same goes with (community) policing: people should have the right to decide what system, political, judiciary, or economic, under which they live their lives.

[tom66]

I am opposed to unlimited law enforcement access to such data:

Reasons: It allows too much control by specific individuals.  Allows for extortion. For example, let's say a senator was running for office, but the NSA had some evidence that he had once committed a harmless offence (such as smoking weed.)  This could be used to manipulate the political system.

Another example, "Does your wife know about your affair?" could be used to manipulate someone for evidence.

Who watches the watchmen?

And, my private life is mine to enjoy without government intrusion.  The government should fear its citizens... not the other way around...

[3roomlab]

Relevant story:

The NSA's goal is clearly to permanently save all electronic communications from everyone. It's now known they already do that for at least two countries (and I would not be surprised if Australia is one of those.) It's also not about finding 'wrong do-ers', or we would not still have Internet malware of any kind. It's more about pre-crime and thought-crime modeling and prediction. Listening to statements of US government pond-slime like Cass Sunstein is truly terrifying, when you realize these people are seriously attempting to implement that kind of far-beyond-1984 nightmare society.

i like that ... pre-crime .... whats that tom cruise movie? .... precogs and stuff

[SeanB]

Minority Report!

[zapta]

i like that ... pre-crime .... whats that tom cruise movie? .... precogs and stuff

Pre crimes are already prosecuted. It goes like this, first you criminalize the pre crime and then you can prosecute it like any other crime.

E.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28criminal%29

[zapta]

I see a big difference between a government spying on its own citizenry within its territory (or 'US persons' as it's called here) and a government spying on other countries and their citizens. The former is an act of oppression, the later is they are doing their job. For example, if the GCHQ collects information about US citizens I don't see a problem with it.

[magetoo]

stenography or trying to blend in to the crowd

My work hear starts to bear fruits. ;-)

Communicating secretly through misspellings, are you?  That explains a lot.

[Phaedrus]

Relevant story:

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/microsoftpri0/2014/12/15/amazon-hp-ebay-join-microsoft-bandwagon-in-warrant-case/
Amazon, HP, eBay join Microsoft bandwagon in warrant case
As extensively telegraphed by Microsoft, the company’s cast of supporters in its legal fight over a warrant seeking a customer’s emails just got a whole lot bigger.
Microsoft was joined by Amazon.com as well as Silicon Valley stalwarts Hewlett-Packard and eBay. Apple, AT&T, Cisco and Verizion, which all supported Microsoft in its lower court case, also weighed in again.

Google, a leader in the cloud-computing realm along with Microsoft and Amazon.com, was among the notable technology companies that haven’t weighed in.

-------------
The NSA's goal is clearly to permanently save all electronic communications from everyone. It's now known they already do that for at least two countries (and I would not be surprised if Australia is one of those.) It's also not about finding 'wrong do-ers', or we would not still have Internet malware of any kind. It's more about pre-crime and thought-crime modeling and prediction. Listening to statements of US government pond-slime like Cass Sunstein is truly terrifying, when you realize these people are seriously attempting to implement that kind of far-beyond-1984 nightmare society.

Personally I bear in mind that an extreme dictatorship only has to eliminate about 10% of the population to suppress any chance of rebellion. The chief difficulty is getting the right 10%. Having a vast archive of all the meta-data PLUS everything everyone said over several years would be *exactly* the right tool for that purpose. Especially if covering years before most people realized how dangerous things were getting.

It's not what they now say they want to do with it, it's what they *will* do with it once they have their Communications Death Star fully operational.

Oh, and for those who think I have an unduly negative view of governments... the Australian government (NSW State and local govt, apparently under instructions from the Federal gov) have recently announced (effectively) that personal property rights no longer matter, and they will be relocating masses of existing homeowners whenever it suits government plans (and personal property investment profits.)
This is personal - if their plan goes ahead (and it will) I'm definitely going to lose my home and workshop.
See http://everist.org/no-rezone/ (my site.)
You can't call it 'conspiracy rubbish' when the stinking plans are online on .gov sites, and there's a timeline of government actions and mainstream news stories going back to 2005.

When the law is used to spy on you, and divest you of your material assets, then there is no longer Rule of Law.

"Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience..."
-- John Locke 1690 2nd Treatise on Government Chapter 19 paragraph 222

This is one of those cases where America has it right, where if you ever object to the government ejecting you from your land you can always sit out on the porch with a rifle and dare them to move you by force. It may not end well, but I suppose it's nice to have the option.

[zapta]

This is one of those cases where America has it right, where if you ever object to the government ejecting you from your land you can always sit out on the porch with a rifle and dare them to move you by force. It may not end well, but I suppose it's nice to have the option.

"When the people are afraid of the government it's oppression, when the government is afraid of the people it's freedom"

They should at least be afraid of the voters.

[Dave Turner]

Turn the question over.

What would the majority think if there was another 11th of the 9th or 7th of the 7th etc?

Probably an outcry - why didn't the government prevent it?

I don't know what the answer is.

For me it isn't the gathering of information - it's the security of the data and what use is made of it!

Whichever way you look at it - it's catch 22.