Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.

[SeanB]

The recorder itself does not have to survive, just the data capsule. That they have not found it is not difficult, it probably is buried in the ground, and you will have to basically go looking for it with a metal detector to get it, and pick up a half million little bits of mangled plane as well.

The pinger is located on the recorder frame, and the design there is it will activate in water, though it may not be attached to the recorder itself and have torn off. It too will survive the impact, but is not designed to survive the cooking, seeing as it operates with water so if it burns on ground it is not needed. It tells you where the back end is so you can search for the drowned plane.

I have seen plane crashes where large items tore out of the frames they were in, and went through very substantial aluminium castings after making a somewhat mangled box shaped hole in it.

[Kjelt]

The pinger is located on the recorder frame, and the design there is it will activate in water

Ak ok well lets wait for the rain then.

[cimmo]

The recorder itself does not have to survive, just the data capsule. That they have not found it is not difficult, it probably is buried in the ground, and you will have to basically go looking for it with a metal detector to get it, and pick up a half million little bits of mangled plane as well.

Don't forget, sometimes even a 3.4 tonnes lump of metal can go missing (so far for nearly six decades):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Tybee_Island_mid-air_collision

[donotdespisethesnake]

An unconfirmed report I saw was that parts of the FDR had been found, but the memory module was missing. So now they may have to search for a potted PCB among all the debris and body parts on a steep mountainside. A tough job for those people.

I can't see that the FDR can add any more information than the CVR though, it may confirm the Altitude setting was deliberately set to 100 ft. It probably won't have information on the door lock actions, nor could it provide any clues to the state of mind of Lubitz.

[Kjelt]

It probably won't have information on the door lock actions, nor could it provide any clues to the state of mind of Lubitz.

No but the onofficial stories now leaked to the press (girlfriend, doctors, friends) give enough clues to the state of mind, though it will always be part speculation.
In the meanwhile it is clear that the co-pilot was having psychiatric assistance and medical examinations. The latter finding that his retina was getting loose which was a reason for the doctor to declare him sick and unfit to fly and probably would cost him his license foregood.
If the aircarrier was aware of his medical situation he would have been grounded and probably fired in a short term.
Now in Germany and the rest of Europe there is a discussion ongoing if doctors in such cases should not be allowed to break their doctor patient confidentiality and make an (anonymous) report to the proper authorities.

[dannyf]

Now in Germany and the rest of Europe there is a discussion ongoing if doctors in such cases should not be allowed to break their doctor patient confidentiality and make an (anonymous) report to the proper authorities.

If I were a doctor, I would oppose that - as it puts tremendous amount of pressure on me to assess if someone is good for a particular job. If I made a mistake (either way), the repercussion (and career / financial damages to me) could be huge.

From my perspective it is best that the burden be on the patient.

[JoeO]

Now in Germany and the rest of Europe there is a discussion ongoing if doctors in such cases should not be allowed to break their doctor patient confidentiality and make an (anonymous) report to the proper authorities.

If I were a doctor, I would oppose that - as it puts tremendous amount of pressure on me to assess if someone is good for a particular job. If I made a mistake (either way), the repercussion (and career / financial damages to me) could be huge.

From my perspective it is best that the burden be on the patient.

Doctors make life and death decisions all the time.
 
Secondly, where would you put a psycho patient?  Teacher?  Cop?  Soldier? Father? 
The only place left for them would be as a politician!

[Richard Crowley]

We used to hospitalize people who had mental problems.
But then it became not "socially acceptable".
So now they roam our streets (and apparently fly our planes).

Anyone who goes into politics has a form of mental illness by definition.   

[Howardlong]

Now in Germany and the rest of Europe there is a discussion ongoing if doctors in such cases should not be allowed to break their doctor patient confidentiality and make an (anonymous) report to the proper authorities.

If I were a doctor, I would oppose that - as it puts tremendous amount of pressure on me to assess if someone is good for a particular job. If I made a mistake (either way), the repercussion (and career / financial damages to me) could be huge.

From my perspective it is best that the burden be on the patient.

I totally understand where you're coming from, but the pilot's Aviation Medical Examiner does already discuss their general health directly with the pilot's General Practitioner (not sure how international that term is, but a GP is the doctor you see when you have a non-emergency ailment) to assess their health history as part of their annual aviation medical. In the UK at least, this is all computerised directly with the AME logging onto the CAA's system, and medicals are issued and cancelled immediately. You simply won't get your medical if you refuse to allow the third party discussion to take place. It's only a small step for the pilot to agree further to allow interim reports, as deemed necessary, to be discussed too.

I'm seeing my AME tomorrow to renew my own medical, I'll ask him what he thinks.

[dannyf]

We used to hospitalize people who had mental problems.

The left stigmatized the care system we had for the mentally ill. Now, they receive no care and are killing themselves and others in the process.

[Richard Crowley]

The left stigmatized the care system we had for the mentally ill. Now, they receive no care and are killing themselves and others in the process.

That's what they call "Progressive".

[mtdoc]

We used to hospitalize people who had mental problems.
But then it became not "socially acceptable".

The primary reason for psychiatric "deinstitutionalization" as it occurred in the 1950s and 1960s was the development of antipsychotic drugs.  Before then there where no effective treatments for psychotic disorders (schizophrenia, bipolar 1, etc).  The fact that many of the state psychiatric hospitals at the time were pretty inhumane in their treatment of such individuals is a separate issue. Without the new drugs those patients would have stayed locked up.

Like most things the pendulum swang too far in the opposite direction. The psychiatric hospital system withered into almost nothing.  Since many patients with psychotic disorders do not consistently take their meds they often end up homeless, on the street,  acting "nucking futs".

Despite the acknowledged needs, no one wants to fund (taxes!) psychiatric hospitals.  I live in a county of 60k people. We have no psychiatric hospital nor does the adjoining county.  The nearest one is an hour and a half away and rarely has open beds.

Most psychiatric problems are not psychotic disorders.  Depression and anxiety are extremely common in our society and this has nothing to do with deinstitutionalization of psychotic patients. Even prior to deinstitutionalization only the most extremely depressed were hospitalized.  Suicides rates are similar or lower now than they were pre-deinstitutionalization.

[Kjelt]

The missing flight recorder has been found.
Also a lot (tens) of smartphones that will be investigated.
They already have found some video a passenger had made privately the last minutes of the flight so they hope to find more evidence.

[rolycat]

From BBC News:

The German prosecutors said internet searches made on the tablet found in Lubitz's Duesseldorf flat included "ways to commit suicide" and "cockpit doors and their security provisions".

Which confirms that this heinous murder-suicide was entirely premeditated.

[dannyf]

That's the price we (mentally ill + the rest of the society) pay for being politically correct.

[tom66]

That's the price we (mentally ill + the rest of the society) pay for being politically correct.

I contend that this person would have slipped through the system regardless.

His doctor would have had to have said something, which is not currently permitted & as stated previously, may not necessarily be what is desired by doctors themselves.

I think this is unfortunate, but it's going to happen. It's a very rare event because pilots of commercial airlines go through very strict psychoanalysis to weed out these kinds.

But what if he was caught, anyway? I'm not really sure what you can do about a person who decides to kill 150 people along with himself. In my eyes, that person is clearly "broken" - they are not functioning like a normal human being. And, even the best treatments cannot cure some differences like that. So what do you do? Hospitalisation is probably the only reasonable thing.

[amyk]

From BBC News:

The German prosecutors said internet searches made on the tablet found in Lubitz's Duesseldorf flat included "ways to commit suicide" and "cockpit doors and their security provisions".

Which confirms that this heinous murder-suicide was entirely premeditated.

Why would a pilot have to search for information about cockpit doors? Aren't they supposed to know how they work already...?

The FDR has been found... and while extremely dirty, appears to be intact:
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.gwi18g/images/photo.fdr.3.jpg

[Howardlong]

When I had my own aviation medical exam a few days ago, I provided the details of my own doctor on the form as usual. Also on the form there are about forty yes/no questions on various illnesses, and if necessary there's a free form text area to describe any that you've answered yes to. The examiner (a doctor in their own right but with aviation medical training) can then go and get further details from the GP if s/he feels it necessary to do so, but due to patient confidentiality, this has to be done in a very controlled way, the examiner can't just pick up the phone to the pilot's quack and get his/her entire medical history sent to them.

You can see the form we use in the UK here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/Medical%20Certificate%20Application%20MED160.pdf

This is of course totally dependent on the examinee to provide truthful information at the outset.

In addition, any subsequent changes to one's medical circumstances must be discussed with the medical examiner, but again this is dependent on the pilot divulging that information in the first place.

By the way, my examiner's view (also a pilot) is simply that there should always be two crew in the cockpit. To have a form of automatic disclosure would be against patient confidentiality.

[dannyf]

The FDR has been found... and while extremely dirty, appears to be intact:
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.gwi18g/images/photo.fdr.3.jpg

Seems to be in excellent shape.

[SeanB]

Wonder how deep it was buried.

[Kjelt]

Wonder how deep it was buried.

What I read is that it was not buried, it was found while searching a pile of clothes and other items, but the reason they had difficulty to spot it at all was because it was exactly the same colour as the rock it was laying on/between.
So since this is real proof that the FDR can exit the orange/red box it is mounted in as a cause of an accident it could be wise to also colour the inside boxes/electronics with a distinct non natural colour.

[elgonzo]

Wonder how deep it was buried.

What I read is that it was not buried, it was found while searching a pile of clothes and other items, but the reason they had difficulty to spot it at all was because it was exactly the same colour as the rock it was laying on/between.
So since this is real proof that the FDR can exit the orange/red box it is mounted in as a cause of an accident it could be wise to also colour the inside boxes/electronics with a distinct non natural colour.

The protective enclosure of the FDR recording module, as shown in the photo from BEA as linked above, is not the condition in which the FDR was found on location. The recording module did not exit the FDR. BEA already separated the recording module from the remains of the FDR box before making that photo.

The mess of an FDR as found on location can be seen on the Aviation Herald, or from another perspective on AIN Online. Especially on the photo as posted on AI Online (also shown below) you can easily identify the recording module on the right-hand side of the hunk of mangled metal that was once an FDR... You might also notice that there is nothing left of the shiny red color on the remains of the FDR - the paint has been thoroughly burned(?) off the metal box. Another layer of paint would not have helped at all in such a situation as this...

[firewalker]

Could a radioactive substance be used to tag this part? Would a non hazard particle emitting material be detectable?

Alexander.

[elgonzo]

Could a radioactive substance be used to tag this part? Would a non hazard particle emitting material be detectable?

Alexander.

What are you talking about? "Radioactive" and "non hazard particle emitting material"? What? You mean radioactivity that is still strong and detectable across reasonable distances while at the same time not being really radioactive/harmful? Unfortunately, radioactivity is generally harmful unless you limit its intensity to an amount that is only reliably detectable over very short distances...

What do you think would passengers and crew do if they would have to endure radioactive showers from the flight recorders during the time of a flight?

[donotdespisethesnake]

NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator EEVblog for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.
If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.
An optional additional explanation is: