Author Topic: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.  (Read 84143 times)

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Offline firewalkerTopic starter

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Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« on: March 25, 2015, 04:05:10 pm »
Have anyone seen inside this type off CVR. It seems to me it is in good shape after the crash. I don't understand why they can't extract data.



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Offline Towger

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2015, 04:39:40 pm »
There was an unconfirmed report that the chip was 'missing'
 

Offline firewalkerTopic starter

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2015, 04:46:55 pm »
I think the chip missing is for the Flight Data Recorder. Not the voice recorder. I don't even know if CVR uses solid state chips or a magnetic tape.

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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2015, 04:50:43 pm »
German news just reported that they think the data from the CVR can be retrieved but it is not confirmed.
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2015, 08:28:18 pm »
Just did some googling. The CVR file is recovered, and an official has listened to it. Voices and sounds, they didn't make any further comment, as you'd expect.
With the FDR, they found the heavily damaged casing, but the circuit card is missing, not yet found. Not 'the chip' missing, that story was just someone being imprecise.
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Offline firewalkerTopic starter

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2015, 08:51:36 pm »
I find it difficult to believe that the enclosure cracked open and the card is gone. I find it more possible for the hole enclosure (the orange cylinder) to be missing.

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Offline dannyf

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2015, 09:33:50 pm »
Quote
I find it difficult to believe that the enclosure cracked open and the card is gone.

I agree. Supposedly this thing can sustain 3000+g. And if the case is disintegrated, there is a severe design issue here.
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Offline amyk

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 04:46:00 am »
Quote
I find it difficult to believe that the enclosure cracked open and the card is gone.

I agree. Supposedly this thing can sustain 3000+g. And if the case is disintegrated, there is a severe design issue here.
It could be something close to it that caused the damage - there's lots of metal pieces around to act as projectiles/cutting surfaces, and the forces are extreme...

I believe mikeselectricstuff has an FDR teardown video.
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 09:28:29 am »
from what i understand the voice recorder has been listened to, apparently one of the pilots was locked out of the cockpit during the descent to the crash site and can be heard trying to break the door down. :wtf:

i think the data recorder is still missing, there were reports that the 'casing' had been found but what they mean by that i dont know
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 01:04:28 pm by dexters_lab »
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 10:36:07 am »
Scary.
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Offline Richard Head

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 11:26:59 am »
If that's true the "locked-cockpit-door" policy is coming back to haunt us.
 

Offline Artlav

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 11:32:35 am »
Most up to date info is here - http://avherald.com/h?article=483a5651&opt=0

The "pilot banging on the door" story is unconfirmed yet, and does not sound realistic - there are override codes to open the door from outside, and there is a buzzer sound when they are used.
Unless everyone on board was confused, i.e. by a depressurisation event.

AFAIK, the FDR case was found, but the armoured capsule wasn't inside. Nothing too strange, since the case is not designed to stand the stress.
 

Offline mzzj

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2015, 11:42:22 am »
Most up to date info is here - http://avherald.com/h?article=483a5651&opt=0

The "pilot banging on the door" story is unconfirmed yet, and does not sound realistic - there are override codes to open the door from outside, and there is a buzzer sound when they are used.
Unless everyone on board was confused, i.e. by a depressurisation event.

AFAIK, the FDR case was found, but the armoured capsule wasn't inside. Nothing too strange, since the case is not designed to stand the stress.
Somewhere in the Pprune.org 1000 pages long gossip thread was A320 door functions explained. If I remember correctly there was silenced option for the buzzer and "double-locked" for the door so that it wont open with the code keypad.
 

Offline Artlav

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2015, 12:04:20 pm »
As far as i know, the door can be opened from outside by entering a code. The the buzzer sounds, and if the ones inside the cockpit do nothing, then the door unlocks 10-30 seconds later.
If the ones inside the cockpit block the override, then the door won't open and the code won't work again for several minutes.
This way if the door gets locked on an empty cockpit or incapacitated pilot, it can be reopened, but at the same time if terrorists force the code from the crew, it won't do them much good.
Haven't heard of any silent override.


EDIT: Now, there have been a press conference a few minutes ago:
Quote
On Mar 26th 2015 the States Attorney of Dusseldorf (Germany) reported, that according to preliminary results by French Authorities only one pilot was in the cockpit at the time of the crash.

On Mar 26th 2015 the States Attorney of Marseille (France) reported, the first officer was alone in the cockpit. The first officer was not talking, only normal breathing could be heard after the captain departed the cockpit. The captain was not able to get back into the cockpit. The first officer initiated a rapid descent, there was no reason to initiate the rapid descent, there was no reason to not communicate with air traffic control, there was no reason why the door wouldn't open. With the current information it can be said, that the breathing of the first officer is not consistent with someone suffering a heart attack or other health issue. Other than that there is absolute silence in the cockpit, screams are heard only in the last few moments. There were no words heard during the last 10 minutes of the flight. The states attorney thinks the first officer intentionally did not open the door.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2015, 12:11:44 pm »
This is how the door system works on an Airbus:

Allegedly now it is said, that the copilot closed the door from the inside mechanically, so it could not have been opened by the pilot from the outside.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 12:22:45 pm by HighVoltage »
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Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2015, 01:18:13 pm »
This is how the door system works on an Airbus:

Allegedly now it is said, that the copilot closed the door from the inside mechanically, so it could not have been opened by the pilot from the outside.



some hammy acting there!

so, its looking deliberate then?

would they have been on autopilot at that stage? guessing the first officer would have to disengage to make a descent?

hopefully they can find the data recorder and get some more answers

Offline ElektroQuark

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2015, 03:15:06 pm »
It looks like the copilot changed the autopilot from 38000 to 100 feet altitude.

Offline Kevman

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2015, 08:27:31 pm »
EDIT: Now, there have been a press conference a few minutes ago:
Quote
On Mar 26th 2015 the States Attorney of Dusseldorf (Germany) reported, that according to preliminary results by French Authorities only one pilot was in the cockpit at the time of the crash.

On Mar 26th 2015 the States Attorney of Marseille (France) reported, the first officer was alone in the cockpit. The first officer was not talking, only normal breathing could be heard after the captain departed the cockpit. The captain was not able to get back into the cockpit. The first officer initiated a rapid descent, there was no reason to initiate the rapid descent, there was no reason to not communicate with air traffic control, there was no reason why the door wouldn't open. With the current information it can be said, that the breathing of the first officer is not consistent with someone suffering a heart attack or other health issue. Other than that there is absolute silence in the cockpit, screams are heard only in the last few moments. There were no words heard during the last 10 minutes of the flight. The states attorney thinks the first officer intentionally did not open the door.

Ugh, I do not envy those that have listened to that tape. That's horror story stuff.
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2015, 08:50:20 pm »
I read about the voice recorder revelations at work today... scary stuff.

However, I did try and come up with a more innocent and tragic explanation for the curious chain of events. It's probably totally wrong but here it is anyway..

The voices indicate the copilot was sociable and chatty before the pilot left the cockpit. So things appeared very normal up to this point.

Suppose the copilot had a funny turn after the pilot left the cockpit. They are trained to spot the signs and symptoms of decompression sickness and maybe he (wrongly) thought there was decompression elsewhere in the plane and this was why he felt ill.

He would know he would only have a few seconds to act so maybe he hit the descent button (in case he passed out but would hope to recover conciousness at a lower altitude). He would have also donned his oxygen mask.

But maybe he also made a fatal decision to try and preserve oxygen levels in the cockpit. Maybe he thought he should lock the cockpit door to prevent the crew from opening it and losing his dwindling oxygen stash. Maybe he assumed total resposibility for the plane and assumed the pilot would be unconscious back in the toilet or main fuselage area. So he was the only vital cog in the whole plane.

But then he passed out for real and this would explain his total silence from then on.  Otherwise, someone disturbed enough to commit an act like this would surely be muttering 'something' in their final moments. Maybe not "goodbye cruel world" but maybe some depressed rambling with a few obscenities thrown in?

There's probably a few flaws in the above but maybe there is a similar scenario that fits the evidence better. It just seems so odd that he would just sit there quietly and not speak at all for the whole episode... ???
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 09:27:49 pm by G0HZU »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2015, 09:31:01 pm »
I find it difficult to believe that the enclosure cracked open and the card is gone. I find it more possible for the hole enclosure (the orange cylinder) to be missing.
It appears the co-pilot willingly flew the airplane into the face of a mountain at full speed. If you look at pictures from the crash site you'll see the airplane has been shattered into millions of small pieces. I'm not surprised the data recorder got damaged from that much violence.
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Offline amyk

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2015, 09:32:27 pm »
I don't think breathing from an oxygen mask would sound the same as "normal breathing", not to mention a microphone sensitive enough to pick up sounds of breathing would hear sounds of a mask being put on.

A scary series of events indeed... the pilot would've known something was wrong the moment he couldn't get back into the cockpit. :o
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2015, 09:41:07 pm »
Quote
I don't think breathing from an oxygen mask would sound the same as "normal breathing", not to mention a microphone sensitive enough to pick up sounds of breathing would hear sounds of a mask being put on.
Yes, you  are probably correct. But no explanation so far seems to be totally plausible. It's the total silence from the copilot that I can't fathom. Would he really just sit there calmly breathing (and ignoring the pilot) whilst he ploughed into a mountain at 400mph? I'd expect there to be some clues in the way he was breathing. Maybe he could have been chuckling as well as just breathing if he really was trying to crash the plane.

It must have been awful for the pilot. He must have known the door wouldn't break open and he would know he was doomed when the low altitude warning sounded... scary stuff indeed.

 

Offline AG6QR

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2015, 10:08:34 pm »
Suppose the copilot had a funny turn after the pilot left the cockpit. They are trained to spot the signs and symptoms of decompression sickness and maybe he (wrongly) thought there was decompression elsewhere in the plane and this was why he felt ill.
Decompression, as in a flaw in the fuselage that allows pressure to reduce to ambient at 38,000 feet, isn't hard to diagnose.  Eardrums bursting, sudden cold due to adiabatic expansion of the air, and immediate fog would be clues, as well as the gauge on the panel showing the cabin altitude increasing (the cabin pressure is indicated as an equivalent altitude, not directly as a pressure).  The noise of decompression would have been heard on the CVR.

Quote
He would know he would only have a few seconds to act so maybe he hit the descent button (in case he passed out but would hope to recover conciousness at a lower altitude). He would have also donned his oxygen mask.

But maybe he also made a fatal decision to try and preserve oxygen levels in the cockpit. Maybe he thought he should lock the cockpit door to prevent the crew from opening it and losing his dwindling oxygen stash. Maybe he assumed total resposibility for the plane and assumed the pilot would be unconscious back in the toilet or main fuselage area. So he was the only vital cog in the whole plane.

Closing the door would do absolutely nothing for oxygen levels, and a pilot knows that.  The air at altitude is about 80% nitrogen, 20% oxygen, the same as at sea level.  The difference is that the pressure is reduced.  Closing the door doesn't increase the pressure.  Your lungs require a certain minimum partial pressure of O2 in order to keep the blood oxygenated.  When the overall atmospheric pressure is reduced, the way the partial pressure of O2 is maintained is through the use of the oxygen mask, and the way it increases the concentration of oxygen delivered to your lungs.

His oxygen would be delivered by the tank in the pilot's O2 system, regardless of whether the door was open or closed.  The system is certified to keep two pilots breathing for far longer than needed to make the descent.  With one pilot absent, it would last twice as long, and would be very much more than sufficient.

Furthermore, the pilot has memorized the checklist for use in case of sudden decompression (pilots are required to consult and use a written checklist for procedures which they do every single day, but they must have memorized the checklists for procedures which probably won't be needed during an entire career.)  The decompression checklist does not include locking the cabin door. 

Quote
But then he passed out for real and this would explain his total silence from then on. 
But he wouldn't pass out if he had the O2 mask on.  He also wouldn't pass out if there had been no genuine decompression, and the evidence suggests no genuine decompression.  Finally, the CVR indicates the sounds of people banging on the door to try to break it down, and people screaming.  If the air were insufficient for a seated pilot to maintain consciousness, it would be much less sufficient for someone standing and moving around, with the kind of exertion required to bang on the door like that.

Quote
Otherwise, someone disturbed enough to commit an act like this would surely be muttering 'something' in their final moments. Maybe not "goodbye cruel world" but maybe some depressed rambling with a few obscenities thrown in?

There's probably a few flaws in the above but maybe there is a similar scenario that fits the evidence better. It just seems so odd that he would just sit there quietly and not speak at all for the whole episode... ???

How can you predict the behavior of "someone disturbed enough to commit an act like this?".  Do such disturbed people always act rationally and predictably?
 

Offline manzini

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2015, 10:25:02 pm »
Some off topic question about suicide quick theory: 

About the suicide theory (or conspiracy), it is revealing that if he really was a suicide without negligence of the company, compensation, according to European standards of € 300,000 per victim, would be the minimum.

Non negligence can be considered if the company certified that the suicide pilot met all assessments, regulatory requirements and psychological checkups to fly.

I believe that when pass the shock, the question is purely monetary and lawyers battle. The widow's of two close business colleages that I have lost,  will have a long legal battle

Meanwhile, thousands of planes fly every day, without sending data online, even as a backup measure. I think (not sure) that Rolls Royce engines send telemetry online around de world. I ignore and my geek sense don't understand why in 2015, this is not yet done or why the door control is not allowed from the control center, while we are able to manage military drones or activate martian probes. It is the safest transport, ok, but people die. Maybe a Martian probe cost more than all material losses and compensations that in 2,4, 5 or 10 years of civil air crashes.

Excuse my bittersweet but I still don't understand the technical limits to do this. I keep seeing these devices as anachronistic as 5 1/4 floppy disks to store vital data.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 10:27:02 pm by manzini »
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Germanwings flight 4u9525 CVR.
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2015, 10:42:17 pm »
Quote
I ignore and my geek sense don't understand why in 2015, this is not yet done

Cost.

Quote
or why the door control is not allowed

You have to figure out the benefits and costs of everything you do. We are not in the risk avoidance business - ie. no matter how thorough you are, someone somewhere somehow will figure out a way to defeat it.
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