Author Topic: Electronics companies should stop killing themselves  (Read 6363 times)

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Offline FaringdonTopic starter

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Electronics companies should stop killing themselves
« on: June 27, 2023, 09:38:52 pm »
Heres what to write to your ministers...to save EE co's

Dear Minister for industry…

Please could you help in giving helpful  advice to British (insert your own country)  Electronics company owners so that they can stop damaging their profitability and success.? If the below advice is given to British Electronics company owners, then they will profit more and therefore provide a higher tax return to the Treasury.

The vast majority of British Electronics company owners are terrified of having  Electronics Engineers doing work at their company,  and then later moving on to other Electronics companies. They fear that these engineers will have seen their electric circuit schematics, and then divulge the company’s secrets to their competitors. However, this  doesn’t make any sense. Virtually all general electronics schematics, including all Power Supply schematics, are just “general” electronics. -All the theories of which  are  already to be found all over the web anyway. I have worked in over 40 different electronics companys, and all of the schematic circuits that I saw in each one was just “standard, well known electronics”…..nothing to be secretive about.

If there is anything “secret” about electronic circuit schematics, then it is what is inside the silicon chips which are used, but only a few engineers inside a silicon chip fab plant would know about this anyway. And in any case, those silicon chips are freely available to all on the marketplace, along with their datasheets which describe how they work.

Its nonsense to suggest that an Electronics engineer would ever deliver one company’s schematics to a competitor of that company. In any company, there is no need  for an Electronics Engineer to ever bring in a previous company’s  schematics. In fact, copying a schematic across to a different company would be down-right fool-hardy and dangerous to the company doing the copying.  As an electronics engineer, you always produce new schematics to suit whatever is required for whichever is the application. It would be non-sensical to ever copy a schematic across. You would simply use the well known electronics circuit theorys to produce new schematics for  whichever company. Or produce new power supply schematics as fit for whichever the application…..using the copiously available sources of info on power supplys which is freely available all over the web.

Even to use a copied schematic, the copier still needs to have the full set of electronics design capability in order to successfully do the copying…and if you have that capability, then you wouldnt bother to copy anyway…it would be easier to just produce a new schematic from scratch,  suited to whichever application.

This practice that British Electronics companies have, for avoiding taking on new Electronics Engineers,  in case they ever leave , is damaging  to themselves as companys. In fact, the more Electronics engineers that have traversed through a particular company, the more successful that company’s products will be…because each engineer will act as an extra pair of eyes to weed out any mistakes in the various  manufacture documents and circuits,  etc. A single , good electronics engineer could do this of course, but there are few of these around in UK now, since “General Electronics” has been outsourced mostly to China. But even a “well weeded out” schematic would be a waste of time to copy and take to another company……..you would simply rather produce new schematics for whichever  new company.

Companies that  limit their throughput of Electronics engineers, are always far  less successful, and have bins full of scrap, failed , returned products.

Company owners  also fear that the more Electronics engineers that have “been and gone” from their company…then the harder they think it will be to ever sell their company at some future date…..since they believe that any future buyer would be deterred by the belief that lots of “ex-engineers” will have  already taken the company’s Intelligent Product on to competitors……..though this is simply not a rational thought, for the reasons given above.
Please help publicise that company owners have nothing whatsoever to fear from  employing Electronics engineers who may later leave their company for pastures new.

As a small, quick example, I once was due to leave a certain electronics company in a week’s time. Then one of their circuits developed a fault. The Chief Engineer tried to stop me from working on the fault, as he declared that I would get sight of the schematic, and then be able to take it to their competitors. However, he was over-ruled, and thank goodness for that, because I managed to fix the fault. The circuit in question ended up being  a ‘bog-standard’ linear regulator…..so "general"  that it wouldn’t ever be worth copying….its the sort of thing you produce to a spec “from scratch” whenever it's needed. Ditto the rest of General Electronics and Power Supplys.

Also, Electronics companys  often avoid taking on new projects because they say that the project would be scuppered if their Electronics Engineer left them half way through the project. This is nonsense. As if individual Electronics engineers carry with them some closely guarded secret knowledge, known only to themselves. ..Rather, each electronics engineer just uses “standard” and well known knowledge. As such, it is very simple for a new, replacement Electronics Engineer to be brought in and to continue where the departed Electronics Engineer just left off.

Electronics companys often believe that their schematics contain “golden secrets”, and they believe this because an interviewee Electronics Engineer, who was briefly shown the schematic, may not have been able to interpret the schematic’s function during the short time at an interview. However, this is not relevant. The fact is that with any schematic, an Electronics Engineer that is new to that schematic, may still need a good hour or so to redraw the schematic and carry out some analysis work before they come to a full understanding of it. This is normal, it doesn’t mean that the schematic is some kind of golden magic secret.

Another point is that company owners often pay their Chief Electronics Engineer a “retention bonus”…which is only payed if the Chief Engineer manages to retain their  Electronics Engineers year-on-year. This encourages the Chief Engineer to reference badly on Electronic Engineers who have left the company, since if engineers are regularly seen to be leaving  and going to   “greener pastures”, then the other engineers may also be enticed to leave (meaning less retention bonus for the Chief). Retention bonus’s also result in other negative activity, which is detrimental to the country and indeed , to the the company owners within that.
One obvious thing is the way that Electronics companies often draw jobs out, making them last ages, so that the electronics engineer can’t come to an end-point in a project, and then feel they are at a good point to leave the company.

I have worked in over 40 different Electronics companies, and all the general electronics circuitry and power supplies in one company, are simply derived from the same general theory as all the other companies…no point in copying it…no danger of it being copied…no danger to the company of any loss of IP, etc etc.


« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 07:48:46 am by Faringdon »
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Offline Gyro

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2023, 09:57:54 pm »
Oh, change the record treez!  :palm:
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline FaringdonTopic starter

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2023, 10:00:58 pm »
Thanks, but this damage is detrimental to all.
'Perfection' is the enemy of 'perfectly satisfactory'
 

Offline ataradov

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2023, 10:02:14 pm »
Nobody cares. Power supplies are a commodity product. Get a new hobby, power supplies are not good for you, apparently.

If you want to complain to official bodies - just do it, don't inform us about thinking about that.
Alex
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2023, 10:06:51 pm »
If said companies kill themselves, they'll disappear and the problem will be solved.

Or maybe what you are really complaining about is that those companies actually can't seem to die in spite of acting the way you describe. In which case trying to understand why this is so may be more beneficial than going at it like Don Quixote.
 
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Offline FaringdonTopic starter

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2023, 10:12:34 pm »
Quote
Or maybe what you are really complaining about is that those companies actually can't seem to die in spite of acting the way you describe. In which case trying to understand why this is so may be more beneficial than going at it like Don Quixote.
Thanks, good point...i think it could fill a skills gap.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 05:23:27 pm by Faringdon »
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Offline ataradov

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2023, 10:25:31 pm »
...this is highly lucrative...and totally legal.
So, what is the issue then? This is their business, not designing some power supplies from scratch. You want to design the power supplies, they don't.
Alex
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2023, 10:27:36 pm »
Nobody cares. Power supplies are a commodity product. Get a new hobby, power supplies are not good for you, apparently.

If you want to complain to official bodies - just do it, don't inform us about thinking about that.

...this is highly lucrative...and totally legal.
So, what is the issue then? This is their business, not designing some power supplies from scratch. You want to design the power supplies, they don't.

Just so.

Treez/ocset/faringdon appears to be an excellent exemplar of something described by Isaac Asimov in 1957. His novella "Profession" is still worth speedreading.
https://www.inf.ufpr.br/renato/profession.html

The points in that resonated with me when I was a schoolkid, and significantly and positively benefited my career and outlook on life.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2023, 10:29:27 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline David Aurora

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2023, 11:37:26 pm »
Dude. For real- get a Playstation/dog/sporting interest/therapist/coin collection/something. These non-stop weird SMPS obsessed posts are not healthy. There are so many more interesting things to discuss in the world than playing this record on loop.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2023, 12:27:15 am »
While one may question the obsession the OP has with this topic, and even give them what looks a bit like psychological advice, I don't reject what he complains about entirely.
And I'm not a shrink.

We have lost whole sections of our industries in the Western world in the past couple decades and claiming it is of no importance is short-sighted, or can even be considered a fault strategically speaking.

We seem to act essentially with a short-term vision and no strategy other than going for the cheaper approaches to maximize profits.

Then we (very) occasionally get all worked up about how we depend too much on China (and others) for some strategic stuff, it lasts a couple months during which we pretend to be very concerned (and during which we suddenly have a lot of free lessons to give to companies). Then we forget about it all and move on. And the situation gets worse.

So, while the form of the OP's posts can be debatable and may look a bit too obsessive (and too much centered about a very specific area, namely SMPS power supplies), the content should at least be considered a bit IMHO, as very few other users ever talk about this (except when everybody is, until it's off the news again.)

 
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Offline ataradov

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2023, 12:36:25 am »
I think a lot of people are concerned about that. There is not much you can do. Writing letters to random industry organizations will not do anything. Neither posting 100s of posts on the forum.

And this is not something individual action can change. There needs to be a well-defined long term policy with set goals and accountability. But this is pretty much impossible.

And the issue is not that individual companies are somehow will suffer, they will not. It is a more global issue, which has to be approached globally. Currently for individual company to do things entirely domestically and from scratch is a sure way to go out of business.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2023, 12:39:26 am by ataradov »
Alex
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2023, 04:58:43 am »
Dude. For real- get a Playstation/dog/sporting interest/therapist/coin collection/something. These non-stop weird SMPS obsessed posts are not healthy. There are so many more interesting things to discuss in the world than playing this record on loop.

You're completely wrong.  They lead a healthy, non-obsessive lifestyle.  I managed to find their webpage, they are happily married with three children.  I hope they don't mind me mentioning the kids names, Resonant (res for short), Flyback (Fly for short) and Converter (Con for short).  The wife had to change their first name to, off-line.
Their family surname is Siam-Mia-Pol-Siamese, or SMPS for short.

Also three pet dogs, called Litz-wire, Inductor and Transformer, the breed is Chow Chow Troll Forum Special Shepard Terrior.
The website at the top says, "Do you agree.." and at the very top in a flowchart style, it has there, both his and the wife's, family treez's.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2023, 05:26:14 am by MK14 »
 
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Online temperance

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2023, 01:28:47 pm »
I think F's real problem is the inability to develop embedded systems because he doesn't know how to develop software.

I used to work in the pro audio industry building custom equipment until around 2007 until this was no longer feasible. Some of those developments can be found in recording studio's, our national TV broadcasting station, amusement parks,... Do I find it nice how the pro audio market changed because some companies bought all large brands just for their name and outsourced all production and development to China and how today some rental companies use dirt cheap amplifiers which when broken are being tossed into the old iron bin. No, it's just the way things go and you have to adjust to this new reality. It's probably my own fault not realizing that cheap is good enough for many.

Other source of income: when it comes to reorienting yourself keep in mind that some people with a lot more brain power than me or you might be digging coal out of the ground under harsh conditions because they don't have any other choice. Your problems and rants are just luxury problems.

If you're not convinced, try building a life in a third world country. (no offense intended)

So, stop complaining like small child who didn't get the latest fancy toys.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2023, 03:35:45 pm by temperance »
 
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Offline FaringdonTopic starter

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2023, 05:37:04 pm »
Thanks, but the concern here is , not for myself, but for the owners of electronics companies who are throwing their money away for no reason, as i explain above.
I feel sorry for them, and am driven to help them.
Also, because they make less money, they pay less in taxation, which hampers the rest of us.
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Offline ataradov

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2023, 05:43:27 pm »
Start your own business if you think they are trowing away money. You will be rich if it turns out to be the case.

If everyone is doing something that seems sub-optimal, the best approach is to figure out why they are doing it that way instead of assuming they are stupid.
Alex
 
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Offline FaringdonTopic starter

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2023, 11:19:11 pm »
Thanks, yes i agree, but think the loan scheme is a winner.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 05:24:25 pm by Faringdon »
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Offline MK14

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2023, 12:02:21 am »
Thanks but i know they are not stupid, ..they are making fortunes middle-manning in the Chinese electronics....but they could stop loosing so much money in their British "token" electronics  business's if they took the advice above.
But yes , these folks are not stupid...they know that to get their hands in the pie of the  "middle-man-millions-of-pounds", they have to maintain a British (or whichever country they are in) "token" electronics company....to "oil the wheels" of the electronics import business.
You have to have that "token" electronics presence.....makes you look like you know about electronics, so that people will place orders through you for the cheap Chinese Electronics imports.

I never forget working in one "token" electronics company...they were paranoid about people seeing their token electronics schems, and then leaving......their highest power product, was a 150W led lamp which used sequence switched linear regulators....they considered this the holy grail of secrets in electronics....nobody who saw the schem could leave the company....they even tried potting over it to "cover it up"....but it was so ruddy simple, that you could literally reverse engineer it just by simply looking at the mains input current waveform to it...........the mains input current, was stair-step sine.....There were 5 steps including the top plateau, and the current sloped smoothly up from ledge to ledge......so it was ruddy obvious that it was 5 linear regs that handed over to each other as the mains rose and fell over 10ms.....it was ruddy obvious that an inverting  opamp was used to make the proceeding stage led current rise act so as to reduce the current of the preceeding stage...and then the proceeding stage, when in regulation, had its opamp output down low....so that was obviously used to turn a PNP on, and disable the preceeding stage.....i mean, it was just so obvious...you could have posted that schem over the world and it would have made no difference....bog standard electronics !!!....all already spewed out over the web anyhow.

These guys are making a massive mistake by not cycling loads of engineers through their companys....minimising the engineer count (throughput) does no good!

And as for people taking out NDA's for bog standard SMPS topologies???!!!...madness...wasting their own time and money!

Was given a 150W single stage PFC to reverse engiener once..no schem as it was "top secret"....turned out to be the bog standard PFC bias coil supply...just with the boost diode made synchronous, and then they obviously had to add software to equalise the volt-seconds on the primary.......again...bog standard....and BTW, it dropped out on no load to full load transients....and had over 3x the rated ripple in the electrolytic......."top secret" ???.......yeah right.......that company was likely just flogging that "top secret" as part of a token business........they likely make their real dosh from Chinese imports........interestingly, the "top secret" SMPS was also using a little HV Buck (SOIC8)  bias supply chip....which had markings which were non identifiable in the western world....likely from their Chinese partner.

Businesses can have Trade Secrets (protecting intellectual property), and an understanding of the wide range of the aspects of running a successful electronics business.  Is my (and with lots of ChatGPT's help), summarised answer.

I.e. I'm on the side of the business, NOT on your side.  As they are protecting their business interests, and running the business, taking lots of things into account, NOT just one aspect of things which an apparently too obsessed person, seems to perceive as the problem.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 12:09:08 am by MK14 »
 
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Online coppercone2

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2023, 01:07:09 am »
they need to innovate more so they are not grasping to planks of wood in the sea.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2023, 04:34:42 am »
Import cheap stuff from china, markup and resell. This is the modern business model.
Companies don't want to make/develop anything, they are impatient and want to buy stuff right away, off the shelf.

Developing an SMPS is gross, worked at a place an engineer spent over a year on a bog standard 25W, learning as he was going, and he wasn't any good at it, at all. Transformer design and sourcing, getting approvals including EMC, it's a lot of work and time and money.

After 12 months, management got pissed off "we don't know how to make power supplies"' and went shopping for a cheap module out of Taiwan.
As far as the cheap potted module, I found it was the usual golden sample with Chemi-con/Nichicon and active rectification, and after some failures and hot temperatures, I took another apart and inside it was cheapola electrolytics with a vanilla diode now, bodge soldered in where the active rect. mosfet used to be. Efficiency dropped and the diode ran really hot. One batch worked but had the transformer wound wrong so it blew up at high line. So you are communicating with overseas engineers that are quiet about the quality swaparoo and deny everything or tell you are misapplying the PSU.
You can only purchase the modules through their distributors... then the price went way up because you are adding a middleman who knows you designed it in.

It ends up being hell to design in some mystery brick, missing specs, russian roulette quality, short life and it eats up the BOM project budget to the point the product isn't worth it.

Building it in house, pay for an engineer with experience and they would have their own PSU at 1/10 the cost but it takes many months. Everyone was too stupid to calculate the dollars spent/saved and too impatient to grow the ability. You end up with an overpriced product that has shit reliability. Congratulations.
 
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Offline ataradov

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2023, 04:44:29 am »
If you are not capable of sourcing decent parts from Asian suppliers directly, you can get power supplies from reliable sources.  Go to Delta, buy their stuff. They have a brand name reputation to maintain. Even if their stuff made in China, they are putting their name on it, at which point where it is made does not matter.

This is a solved problem.

"China is bad because I got sold crap on AliExpress" is a cool hobby story, but does not reflect the state of the actual industry.

And if all the domestic company doing is buying parts from Asia, but then resells them while verifying and maintaining set quality level, then this is a valid and  valuable business.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 04:54:58 am by ataradov »
Alex
 
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Online asmi

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2023, 04:49:52 pm »
I think a lot of people are concerned about that.
Only when it doesn't cost them anything. When their money is on the line, vast majority of those "concerned" still buy cheaper stuff from overseas. So it's a typical hypocrisy "do as I say, not as I do" :--
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2023, 09:18:26 pm »
Building it in house, pay for an engineer with experience and they would have their own PSU at 1/10 the cost but it takes many months. Everyone was too stupid to calculate the dollars spent/saved and too impatient to grow the ability. You end up with an overpriced product that has shit reliability. Congratulations.

There is no way you can build in house a generic 25W flyback for 1/10th the cost of an off the shelf design.

As far as the cheap potted module, I found it was the usual golden sample with Chemi-con/Nichicon and active rectification, and after some failures and hot temperatures, I took another apart and inside it was cheapola electrolytics with a vanilla diode now, bodge soldered in where the active rect. mosfet used to be. Efficiency dropped and the diode ran really hot.

So you go burned by one shitty supplier and didn't try anyone else?
Profile -> Modify profile -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' signatures
 
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Offline Xena E

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2023, 10:30:46 pm »
..... more beneficial than going at it like Don Quixote.
Now, There's a Hobby for Faringdon to take up!

(Fighting windmills.)
 
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Offline Psi

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2023, 10:35:16 pm »
Engineer: Builds a pretty generic switchmode PSU using values from Excel guide on manufactures website.

Boss: We must protect the IP of this design at all cost!!

Engineer: Rolls eyes.  ::)
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 
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Offline FaringdonTopic starter

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Re: General Analog Electronics companies must stop killing themselves
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2023, 01:49:20 pm »
Thanks,
I think especially with zoom/teams this loan scheme could be workable.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 05:25:48 pm by Faringdon »
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