Author Topic: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals. SCUM K HYNIX  (Read 2430 times)

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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2024, 02:37:01 pm »
I'd reply with "No, I am referring to the post-purchase ARBITRATION CLAUSE and LICENSE AGREEMENT that the sticker on the product claims to bind me to.  As these were not divulged at the time of the purchase, by UK and EU law they are unfair contract terms, and thus not binding on the consumer.  (For details, see https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/unfair-contract-terms/examples-unfair-terms and https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treatment/unfair-contract-terms/index_en.htm.) I am fairly disgusted by not having been informed of these terms openly up front at the time of purchase, as would be fair and standard practice in EU and UK, and am considering reporting this as unfair contract practice by SK Hynix to the UK Financial Conduct Authority."
 
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2024, 02:44:59 pm »
Just sent Louis Rossman and email last night with the pictures to see what he has to say as I think he might be interested.

Send it to Linus Sebastian as well. He loves stuff like that and PC parts are very much his wheelhouse.
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2024, 03:35:41 pm »
I'd reply with "No, I am referring to the post-purchase ARBITRATION CLAUSE and LICENSE AGREEMENT that the sticker on the product claims to bind me to.  As these were not divulged at the time of the purchase, by UK and EU law they are unfair contract terms, and thus not binding on the consumer.  (For details, see https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/unfair-contract-terms/examples-unfair-terms and https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treatment/unfair-contract-terms/index_en.htm.) I am fairly disgusted by not having been informed of these terms openly up front at the time of purchase, as would be fair and standard practice in EU and UK, and am considering reporting this as unfair contract practice by SK Hynix to the UK Financial Conduct Authority."

They could argue that the UK are not in the EU anymore.

Sorry I don't believe I might have been clear.
Rephrase: Just spoke to the FCA. They are not interested so they gave me a number to Trading Standards, I phoned them this number and then we had an argument. With this lady who picked up on what was suppose to be the the "Trading Standards" and really found out later it was the "Citizens Advice Bureau". She didn't sound willing from the sound of her tone. I explained what happened and said the listing did not mention anything about a consumer rights restricting, arbitration/no sue policy on the seal where they are not liable for damages and so on.

The lady said she needed to "talk to her manager" and came back and basically said it was okay they are mentioning their terms and conditions. I put it another way if it was sold behind the counter, "because it is online and not a high street shop" it's alright.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2024, 04:23:21 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2024, 03:52:30 pm »
>:(  :rant:
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2024, 04:01:50 pm »
The lady said she needed to "talk to her manager" and came back and basically said it was okay they are mentioning their terms and conditions. I put it another way if it was sold behind the counter, "because it is online and not a high street shop" it's alright.

Very few adverts and "offers to treat" contain all the information in the manual. That's understandable.

If selling to a consumer and not in a shop, then the distance selling regulations are relevant. Hence "because it is online" is bullshit.

Provided it is within the prescribed timescale, you can return it and they must refund the monies. They are, of course, entitled not to do business with you in the future.

I'd also leave a review on as many review pages as possible, and ask pointed questions on MSE forums.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2024, 04:03:27 pm »
I love how one of the first, most prominent items in the footer section FCA's website is not "About us", but rather "Complain about us".  ::)
 
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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2024, 04:07:22 pm »
I phoned them up again...

This time a gentleman picked up the phone and he opened a case asking for my details sounding a lot more professional and willing.

Apparently it was not the Trading Standards it was the Citizen Advice Bureau. He said something about Trading Standards nott taking calls anymore from the public, they do and then they report them to Trading Standards if they think they might be interested.

After explaining the issue and he said "is this a consumer rights restrictions", I said yes... He said that should not be on there and he will report it to trading standards but he don't know if they will take it up or not and they may contact me for more information.

I did apologize for my behaviour about the previous agent, I was absolutely infuriated at the time... (the unwillingness to do anything, brushing and fobbing off attitude), he asked for her name which I don't have and should have asked her at beginning explaining if you listened to the call she didn't want to do anything and relied on a manager on this advice she insisted on that it was alright, and the shop analogy because it was online not a shop etc it was alright... He said to me not to worry.

I'll prepare an email follow up to Louis Rossman and Linus Sebastian later. I am just agitated at the moment on what should have been a simple report on the phone after spending about an hour and some lazy/ignorant agent to start with.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2024, 04:13:38 pm by MrMobodies »
 
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Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2024, 10:40:40 pm »
Just noticed this.
https://linustechtips.com/topic/1248061-contact-linus-tech-tips/
Quote
Contact Linus Tech Tips
"piratemonkey
Member  Canadien hotdog  960 7
Boinc Team Folding Event Newbie Folding Team Silver Level
Posted September 18, 2020
 
He's said before that he doesn't open emails he doesn't know the sender of"

I did send but likely neither of them may get it.

Looks like I will have to make account on their board and make awareness there.
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2024, 02:06:10 pm »
Trying to contact both of them is looking like a dead end or maybe they are not interested.

A reply to my latest question and they seem slow to respond:
Quote
04-Oct-2024 16:04
In that case why is this arbitration/no sue clause NOT in the listing?
Quote
SK hynix EU
07-Oct-2024 02:25 Hello ,
Thanks for reaching back.
We sincerely apoligize for the confusion this may caused.
The clause on the seal of the product package is referring to our product limited warranty.
The limited warranty is a five (5) year limited warranty provided to customers who have purchased the product. (for more information, please visit our website). This claim is also mentionned in our product page.
If you have further questions, feel free to contact us.
Best regards,
SK hynix EU
Are deliberately to cause confusion to blend it in with the warranty.

Maybe I'll try this one next and see what excuse they come out with:
I'd reply with "No, I am referring to the post-purchase ARBITRATION CLAUSE and LICENSE AGREEMENT that the sticker on the product claims to bind me to.  As these were not divulged at the time of the purchase, by UK and EU law they are unfair contract terms, and thus not binding on the consumer.  (For details, see https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/unfair-contract-terms/examples-unfair-terms and https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treatment/unfair-contract-terms/index_en.htm.) I am fairly disgusted by not having been informed of these terms openly up front at the time of purchase, as would be fair and standard practice in EU and UK, and am considering reporting this as unfair contract practice by SK Hynix to the UK Financial Conduct Authority."
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 02:17:18 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2024, 04:15:40 am »
Responded with:
I'd reply with "No, I am referring to the post-purchase ARBITRATION CLAUSE and LICENSE AGREEMENT that the sticker on the product claims to bind me to.  As these were not divulged at the time of the purchase, by UK and EU law they are unfair contract terms, and thus not binding on the consumer.  (For details, see https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/unfair-contract-terms/examples-unfair-terms and https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treatment/unfair-contract-terms/index_en.htm.) I am fairly disgusted by not having been informed of these terms openly up front at the time of purchase, as would be fair and standard practice in EU and UK, and am considering reporting this as unfair contract practice by SK Hynix to the UK Financial Conduct Authority."
Thank you Nominal Animal
And just got a response that sounds to me like they know truey well that they are up in trying fob me off in trying to to bypass as much consumer.
Quote
08-Oct-2024 01:53
Hello,
Thank you for getting back to us.
We apologize for the inconvenience caused by the confusion.
* Unfortunately, the Amazon product page has certain limitations that prevent us from providing all the necessary details regarding the product and its warranty.  :bullshit:
Please note that the arbitration clause and limited warranty you referred to only take effect once the product has been opened. :bullshit: As previously mentioned, you are welcome to return the product within 30 days of purchase if you do not agree with these terms. We have also confirmed that you have already returned the item and received a refund for order 206-3253682-4925926.
Regarding the review and feedback you left, we have reviewed it and shared it with the relevant team.
If you have any further questions, feel free to contact us.
Best regards,
SK hynix EU
Limitations? There is PLENTY OF SPACE they could put this. In fact there is a "Legal Disclaimer" they could have put it there
It currently says:
Quote
Important information
Legal Disclaimer
Performance may vary based on system hardware, operating system, SSD capacity, individual usage pattern and other system variables. Please note that TBW will vary based on the usage pattern of individual users, including the workload of individual users.

*I bet "the certain limitations" is that they are not allowed to do it due to consumer law and check out that the high horse above the law attitude.

Maybe I should give Amazon a call now that it is possible they know they could be even breaking their own terms and conditions with Amazon.

"Well if you don't like it send it back" NO! That is NOT what I ordered it with and I know from a certain trade in the past where they refer to builders who think they can do things they have no experience or training as "chancers" when they mess up.

That is what they are doing here, chancing those who would accept the clauses.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2024, 01:24:17 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals.
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2024, 05:43:32 am »
"The first thing we do is, let's kill all the lawyers.".

Dick the Butcher in  William Shakespeare's

Henry VI, Part II,  1596 and 1599

Jon
Jean-Paul  the Internet Dinosaur
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals. SCUM K HYNIX
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2024, 04:30:20 pm »
Here is my reply.
Quote
Quote "Unfortunately, the Amazon product page has certain limitations that prevent us from providing all the necessary details regarding the product and its warranty. So if you know it is wrong, that you are NOT allowed list the binding clause on Amazon, then that is downright dishonest. There is already a section you could have put it under "Legal Disclaimer" Using the warranty as a cover for it is not a good excuse. I have contacted the Citizens Advice bureau and they agree with me that it the forced arbitration no sue clause and over the seal is "consumer rights limiting" and shouldn't be on there. They have filed a report to the Trading Standards. Any legal binding should be on the listing not AFTER it is brought and paid for. It is NOT acceptable, like mis selling, things that are binding on consumer rights, regardless of warranty, SHOULD be in the listing and if you do stuff that may be illegal or even break the terms and conditions of Amazon that you say you can't put those details in. well then you shouldn't be doing it.

If they know they are not allowed to declare this binding arbitration consumer rights limiting policy (once the seal is broke) on the Amazon listing as they admitted above why do they think it is acceptable to list it on the seal and a URL after the sale.

Attitude: "We give your money back after 30 days, records show you got it back etc what more do you want?"
No it is to do with their dishonest liberty taking shoddy trading practices that they know they are not allowed display on Amazon.

I am very disappointed, angry in fact. I just contacted Amazon by phone and reported the issue. The only way I find I can contact them is the accessibility line.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2024, 02:31:01 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals. SCUM K HYNIX
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2024, 03:10:35 am »
Thanks to Nominal Animal for helping I found where to report on the FCA website for reporting unfair terms and contracts and now a form to contact using the "Non product enquiry" (non match), email, phone and with pictures too.

https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/unfair-contracts
Ask us as a question of report a scam:
https://www.fca.org.uk/contact

So we will see what that does.
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals. SCUM K HYNIX
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2024, 03:32:37 pm »
Underlined and star to what I think maybe applicable in this case.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7c7f43ed915d48c241023b/oft311.pdf
Office of fair trading: Unfair contract terms guidance
Guidance for the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts
Regulations 1999 September 2008

Exclusion and limitation clauses in general
1.1 Terms which serve to exclude or limit liability (also known as disclaimers,
or exemption clauses) take many different forms. Detailed comments on
particular types of disclaimer which may be unfair can be found in
subsections 2(a) to 2(h) below. But some comments can be made which
apply to all of them

1.5 Other arguments, such as those below, cannot be used to justify an over-
extensive disclaimer.

That it is intended only to deal with unjustified demands. If a disclaimer
could be used to defeat legitimate claims it is likely to be unfair.
The
Regulations are concerned with the effect terms can have, not just
with the intentions behind them. If the potential effect of a term goes
further than is intended, it may be possible to make it fair by cutting
back its scope (see Annexe A for examples showing how this can be
done).

That it does not actually operate by excluding liability. If a term
achieves the same effect as an unfair exemption clause, it will be unfair
whatever its form or mechanism. This applies, for example, to terms
which 'deem' things to be the case, or get consumers to declare that
Unfair contract terms guidance
15
they are – whether they really are or not – with the aim of ensuring no
liability arises in the first place.

That there is a statement which says 'the customer's statutory rights
are not affected'. An unfair disclaimer is not made acceptable by being
partially contradicted by an unexplained legal technicality
whose effect
only a lawyer is likely to understand. See below Part IV on the plain
and intelligible language requirement, and particularly paragraph 19.5.

1.10 No contract term can legally have the effect of excluding liability for death
or injury caused by negligence in the course of business, and such terms
should not appear in consumer contracts. 3 As well as being unfair, their
use is liable to be misleading, and therefore may give rise to action as an
unfair commercial practice
, which can in certain circumstances involve
prosecution (see above, page 10).

General disclaimers, for example saying that customers use equipment or
premises 'at their own risk', cover liability for death or personal injury even
though the main concern of the supplier may be something else. It might,
for example, be intended to stop consumers trying to sue for loss of or
damage to their clothes or other property which is really the result of their
own carelessness. But the fact that the intention behind a term is more
limited than its potential effects does not make it fair.

1.1.2 Disclaimers of this kind, like other exemption clauses, may be acceptable if
they are qualified so that liability for loss or harm is not excluded or
restricted where the supplier is at fault, or is disclaimed only where
someone else – or a factor outside anyone's control – is to blame.

Group 2(a): Exclusion of liability for faulty or misdescribed goods

2.1.2 As well as potentially being unfair under the Regulations, the use of such
disclaimers is liable to mislead consumers about their statutory rights. As
such, it can give rise to enforcement action as an unfair commercial
practice (see above, page 11).


* 2.8.6 Any guarantee which gives consumers substantially less protection than
their ordinary rights is unlikely to be made fair merely by addition of a
qualifying statement of any kind.
In the OFT's view, such a guarantee
should be discontinued altogether, or its terms should be brought into line
with the consumer's legal rights.

Group 9: Binding consumers to hidden terms 25 – paragraph 1(i)
of Schedule 2


Schedule 2, paragraph 1, states that terms may be unfair if they
have the object or effect of:

(i) * irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no
real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of
the contract.


9.1 * Terms which have the effect of making consumers agree to accept
obligations of which they can have no knowledge at the time of contracting
are open to serious objection. It is a fundamental requirement of contractual
fairness that consumers should always have an opportunity to read and
understand terms before becoming bound by them (see Part IV).


9.2 * It is not 'hidden terms' themselves that are indicated to be unfair, but any
term which binds the consumer to accept or comply with them – or, in
legal jargon, 'incorporates' them 'by reference'
. However, terms of whose
existence and content the consumer has no adequate notice at the time of
entering the contract may not be binding under the general law, in any
case, especially if they are onerous in character.

Group 11: Right to change what is supplied – paragraph 1(k) of
Schedule 2

Schedule 2, paragraph 1, states that terms may be unfair if they
have the object or effect of:
(k)
enabling the seller or supplier to alter unilaterally without a valid
reason any characteristics of the product or service to be
provided.

11.1 The OFT's objections to variation clauses generally are set out under Group
10. ** A variation clause of the particular kind described in the wording above
allows a supplier to substitute something different for what he has actually
agreed to supply.
This conflicts with the consumer's legal right to receive
something that is in all significant respects what he or she agreed to buy,
not merely something similar or equivalent.

11.2 Consumers are legally entitled to expect satisfactory quality in goods and
services, but that does not mean it is fair to reserve the right to supply
something that is not what was agreed
but is of equivalent standard or
value. Terms should respect both the right to receive products that are as
described and the right to satisfactory quality, not one or the other.

** There is already a legal disclaimer in their Amazon listing :
Quote
Important information
Legal Disclaimer
Performance may vary based on system hardware, operating system, SSD capacity, individual usage pattern and other system variables. Please note that TBW will vary based on the usage pattern of individual users, including the workload of individual users.

So that maybe that could in addition be considered a variation clause and it is not fair that they have substituted different terms outside the listing.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2024, 03:39:39 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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You can forget about the FCA they are not fit for anything.
I love how one of the first, most prominent items in the footer section FCA's website is not "About us", but rather "Complain about us"::)

It seems that they are already being complained about:
https://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/news/victims-to-stage-protest-outside-fcas-headquarters/
Quote
Victims to stage protest outside FCA’s headquarters
Momodou Musa Touray 26 September 2024
 
Victims of financial services misconduct and regulatory failure are to stage a protest today (26 Sept) outside the Financial Conduct Authority’s headquarters in London.

“The Rally for Better Financial Regulation” protest is organised by campaign group Transparency Task Force and seeks to highlight consumers’ concerns about “a lack of proactivity, transparency and accountability”.

It follows the conclusion of the FCA’s Annual Public Meeting held online at which the FCA is expected to face criticism for a lengthy list of unresolved scandals including Woodford, the Philips Trust Corporation, mortgage prisoners, pension and investment failures among others.

* The organisers called for reforms to help make the financial services sector and the FCA more accountable for their actions including the introduction of a civilly actionable duty of care owed to consumers by authorised firms and individuals or the addition of a private right of action and the removal of unnecessary loopholes from the FCA’s Consumer Duty.

The right to compensation if consumers lose money as a result of regulatory failure or unwarranted inaction by the FCA.

And governance improvements at the regulator, including the creation of a consumer-led oversight body to make key appointments, set budgets, review performance and ensure complaints are handled effectively

Andy Agathangelou, founder of Transparency Task Force, said: “Just this week, the FCA admitted its Chair, Ashley Alder, failed to keep confidential the names of two of its employees who blew the whistle – but the investigation, undertaken by one of the organisation’s own directors, was consequence-free for Mr Alder, an experienced lawyer and regulator who should have known better. The FCA has a habit of marking its own homework.

“And at today’s Annual Public Meeting, we expect the FCA’s senior team to deflect critical questions with answers that are, at best, incomplete and at worst misleading. We’ve asked that it be reinstated as a hybrid event so people have the option of attending in person, which would enable them to challenge unsatisfactory responses.”

**Former FCA employee Jasthi Alom, who is challenging the regulator in the court, will be one of the speakers at the rally.

Alom said: “This rally is crucial because the equation is simple: better regulation requires a better regulator. Systemic reform of the Financial Conduct Authority is urgently needed.

“Without it, the FCA risks becoming the next major public catastrophe – a crisis they are already teetering on – and much like the Post Office scandal, it will lead to devastating consequences, including financial losses, ruined lives and even suicides.”
* So in other words it is useless, like with Action Fraud where I hear it is used as a dumping ground, the FCA use loopholes to get out of doing things.

** One of their own employers up against them in court doesn't sound very good.

No wonder why they wern't interested over the phone and hard to speak to someone with flow diagram choices that either "give the so and so more time to respond" and then cut me off  or that repeated with other options with  if I remember in addition "You can report online.".
« Last Edit: October 09, 2024, 05:09:42 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline MrMobodiesTopic starter

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals. SCUM K HYNIX
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2024, 11:42:44 pm »
I think they get the message now:
My latest response:
Quote
08-Oct-2024 01:53
I am NOT talking about the warranty. I am not talking about the refund. I am talking about your listing practices on Amazon to which I have reported to them yesterday. I am talking about, quote "Please note that the arbitration clause and limited warranty you referred to only take effect once the product has been opened." That should be listed in the listing. That behaviour is predatory, chancing who would accept those legally binding clauses AFTER the sale that they didn't know about before they paid for it on Amazon. Whether it is in the listing or not is unfair trading listed in the "Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, Group 2(a): Exclusion of liability for faulty or misdescribed goods, "
* 2.8.6 Any guarantee which gives consumers substantially less protection than
their ordinary rights is unlikely to be made fair merely by addition of a
qualifying statement of any kind. ".and "with the consumer's legal rights.
and 9.1 * Terms which have the effect of making consumers agree to accept
obligations of which they can have no knowledge *at the time of contracting
are open to serious objection*. It is a fundamental requirement of contractual
fairness that consumers should always have an opportunity to read and
understand terms before becoming bound by them (see Part IV).
9.2 * It is not 'hidden terms' themselves that are indicated to be unfair, but any
term which binds the consumer to accept or comply with them – or, in
legal jargon, 'incorporates' them 'by reference'. However, terms of whose
existence and content the consumer has no adequate notice at the time of
entering the contract may not be binding under the general law, in any
case, especially if they are onerous in character..
I think this is deceptive (if you know you can't list the clause in the listing on Amazon), dishonest, unfair and WRONG to TRY and ATTEMPT to bind customers to no sue (consumer rights limiting) clauses that they are not expecting AFTER the sale they are about to open the product.
According to my conversation with Citizens Advice Bureau who filed to the report to the Trading Standards, not such a clause should apply products sold in this country,
Attachments:
oft311.pdf

I was actually scared into finding another bullet dodging excuse from them but they seem to have got the message this time maybe?
Quote
10-Oct-2024 00:02
Hello ,
Thank you for getting back to us again.
We understood your request and shared your feedback to the revelant team.  :-+
* If there is anything else that we can do, feel free to contact us.
Best regards,
SK hynix EU
*Yes remove the stuff off the seal.
I might have accepted on the slimmest chance "You agree not sue us for data loss but anything else, no manufacturer can guarantee it etc" and even that could set a message of it not looking good in terms of reliability of they feel the need to put it on the seals.

Much better answer than the fob offs over using the warranty as a cover and now I can rest.

Well I hope they get investigated by the three places I reported them to, the Trading Standards, FCA and Amazon and order them to put a stop to that nonsense but I am convinced all three may turn out to be just as useless as Acton Fraud.

I also found another department that I might report it to as they assumed part of the Office of Fair Trading as it was dissolved in 2014. The CMA (Competition and Markets Authority)
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/competition-and-consumer-laws-for-business

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a759a6ced915d506ee80176/oft911.pdf
Included below what seems applicable to me to what they maybe in breach of:
Quote
The CPRs consist of:
• a general duty not to trade unfairly by acting contrary to the
requirements of professional diligence so as to distort the
average consumer’s decisions in relation to the product or
service.
This can be broadly understood as failing to act in
accordance with acceptable trading practice a reasonable
person would expect

prohibitions of misleading and aggressive practices.
Examples include withholding material information from
consumers
(withholding information on the Amazon listing about the binding arbitration no sue clauses that comes packaged on the seal of the item after the sales that binds the buyer to consumer rights limiting agreement when seal is broken) so as to impair their ability to make an informed choice, or coercing a consumer into making a decision (After the item is delivered the buyer is then forced to make a decision into either, accepting the arbitration no sue clause on the seal that they were not expecting nor declared in listing before the sale OR to not open the package and go to the effort of sending it back within 30 days.)
...
Issuing contracts
You have a legal duty not to use unfair terms in the contracts
you have with consumers.
...
• types of term that may be found unfair include disclaimers
which seek to limit liability for: death or injury, delays, faulty
or
misdescribed goods (sold with clauses not declared or described in listing before the sale), and unsatisfactory services.

other common unfair terms include: those that deny the
consumer full redress,
impose unfair penalties, loss of
prepayments, and allow businesses to vary the terms after
the contract has been agreed.
(They have two, one in the Amazon listing, "Legal Disclaimer" under "Important information" and a different one on the seal of the packaging that can only be seen after the sale when the goods are delivered.)

Thanks again to NominalAnimal for pointing me in the right direction about unfair trading practices and I learn't a few things on the way about how The Office of Fair Trading got broken up into little pieces.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2024, 01:10:22 am by MrMobodies »
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Arbitration and no sue clauses on packaging and seals. SCUM K HYNIX
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2024, 05:57:10 am »
Happy to help! 😊

Such weasel-wording post-purchase "contract terms" just make me angry.  Especially so for memory sticks, considering Kingston's limited lifetime warrantyOf course there are limitations, and of course anyone purchasing such memory sticks should read what it actually means: lifetime in particular is the expected lifetime of memory sticks, not human lifetime.  While it is still legalese, it's darn sight better than what SK Hynix tries to swing with their "hey, by the way here are the terms and limitations you agreed to when you purchased this product" trickery.

Licenses and contracts aren't that hard; they can be done right.  All you need to do is reign in your marketing folks, rope in your engineers and market specialists to describe in a couple of paragraphs what end users expect and what the product is compared to typical ones in the same niche on the market, and verify the texts with two separate lawyers: one shielding the company, the other a devil's advocate, making sure it is legal in each broad market with respect to consumer rights.  (For B2B, you only need the former lawyer, of course.  It's just a different world, that one.)

Do that right, perhaps even contacting the highest consumer rights advocate agencies in each large market for their comments on the license/contract/agreement, and make sure they don't have any big complaints, and as the manufacturer/vendor/seller/trader, you have an extremely strong position.

How expensive is that?  It's not; the two lawyers are the biggest cost, maybe a few k, but when it is done, it is done.  It's like having the proper commercial/business insurance when doing contract work.

I don't usually get involved in consumer issues; it's the same one with regards to software licensing, especially how to correctly use both proprietary and "copyleft" licenses in a single aggregate product –– for example, Qt.  And no, I'm not a lawyer, just someone who has had a IP-centric business myself.  (I just wasn't at all suited for the social aspects of it, and broke myself trying to do/be/become so.)  With Qt, even if you don't get the commercial license, but abide by the LGPL, you can do a proprietary product (but with specific limitations especially wrt. how the firmware is created and user-modificable, for an embedded product) in a way that keeps everyone, including Qt Group, quite happy!  I keep encountering people who say "No, you must get the commercial paid license to Qt", just like OP encountered that "helpful" phone person in #27.  The inverse are the many companies who use GPL software in their products, but refuse to provide the sources, or provide useless sources. :palm:

Tux is my mascot, not my idol.  I prefer open source tools because I'm a toolmaker myself, and tweak everything I daily use.  I'm happy to use commercial, proprietary tools, and develop and help develop proprietary products, when appropriate (makes sense for both developers and users).

In the last twenty-thirty years, we in the EU and UK have managed to create legislation that protects consumers from corporate legalese.  (Did you know, for example, that consumer agreements are deemed valid only if they are understandable to a layperson here?  That legalese, if complicated and only understandable to attorneys, is actually unfair practice and non-binding to consumers?  Yes, this is true, and is one of the good things EU managed to unify across Europe, pretty much.  You can discover this for yourself by following the links in #25: no need to believe what I claim.)
 
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