Author Topic: Free Energy Scams and Fakes  (Read 38951 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2014, 12:02:48 pm »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mazda

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2014, 12:30:19 pm »
How about investing US$ 11 million into cold fusion (LENR):
http://coldfusion3.com/blog/it%E2%80%99s-official-us-startup-admits-to-purchasing-rossi%E2%80%99s-e-cat-lenr-technology

you just don’t like it cos it's going to replace Windmills.    ;)

imo its real
 

Offline Kremmen

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2014, 01:03:21 pm »
What - Rossi's process of turning nickel into copper and in the process release energy? Won't happen.
I sincerely recommend that you familiarize with the nuclear binding energy tables freely available, in the net, e.g. here: http://physics.tutorvista.com/modern-physics/nucleon.html. You can see that unlike the light nuclei such as hydrogen fusing to helium and thereby powering the sun, fusing anything heavier that iron (Fe) will require extra energy instead of releasing any. That is indicated by the downward slope of the curve beyond iron. Nickel is just heavier that iron and copper more so; fusing Ni to Cu won't produce any energy. But this is apparently too difficult for the greedier investors to grasp and conveniently "forgotten" by Rossi & co.
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2014, 01:50:38 pm »
I am not saying that the energy is coming from nowhere. It is, the power lines! What I am saying is that HV power lines are emitting a fairly high level of EMF which is enough to excite the atoms in a gas tube. This energy is there all the time and is part of the loss from transmission lines. What I was saying, is that whether you have 1 FL tube or 300,000 FL tubes all lined up under the wires it should not effect the grid anymore than 1. Lets say I had (theoretically) 10,000 mW/M^2, and this was the energy that existed all along the HV power lines in question. Adding more of less in the way of gas tubes under these power lines would utilize the energy available but would not pull more from the grid. If I am wrong, please explain.

I think IanB is right - putting lots of fluros near HV powerlines would drain some energy from the line.
Air is a good insulator, because it has low electron mobility. Means as a dielectric, it's relatively non-lossy.
But fluros, in an E field strong enough to ionize some of the gas molecules, have long mean free paths of the electrons. High electron mobility means as a dielectric medium, fluros are really lossy. The E field is doing work accelerating electrons, and that energy gets turned into heat and light (feebly.) That power is gone, not coming back.

How many fluros it would take to drain one extra Watt from a 330KV 50Hz power line at say 10meters distance, I don't know. Probably a lot. But it definitely would drain power.

What would the equivalent circuit be? A wire carrying an AC voltage in free space, with frequency low enough to allow neglecting EM wave transmitting losses and reflectances, can be represented as a capacitor - the capacitance to nearby objects, or infinity, right?

But with the fluros and their mobile electrons, the capacitor gets a (small) series resistor, representing the loss of energy from the field.
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2014, 02:30:18 pm »
There's a lot of them! I'm guessing that part of the videos are just troll physics, some are ad-money grabbers and some are investor magnets. But some of them look really great, like this one:

http://hackaday.com/2013/11/30/gravity-powered-generator-real-or-fake/

Nice, this is some really impressive CGI work :D see their webpage: http://rarenergia.com.br
I wonder which program they used. Of course, they were a bit sloppy with this image: http://rarenergia.com.br/imagem11a.JPG The lights and shadows look very wrong and the workers as photoshoped into the image.

Oh my! But... it's NOT CGI. I've just spent half an hour staring at these images, and I'm pretty good at spotting image fl... sigh yeah, seen a few shops in my time, pixels etc. . But if those are fake they are _brilliant_ and the authors could make a living doing CGI and don't need to pretend to build... what _is_ that thing?
Also, if it's CGI, where's the brilliant animation of it running? Because I really really want to see that that thing turning over. Just can't visualize it, after it got complicated.

I too like looking at free energy scams for fun and giggles. That's definitely a great one to follow. So much girder! Such complex! Very bolts!

They are going to be sooooo pissed when it does nothing.
Alternatively, I'm going to be so entertained if it does work.

One of my favorite 'free energy' amusements, are the web adverts starting "power companies hate this!" Then they have a photo of some technical device. Most of which are easily identified, but a few are quite difficult to identify.
An article about those scams here:
http://pesn.com/2012/12/02/9602223_Power-Companies-Will-Hate-This_Scam/
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Offline Mazda

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2014, 02:53:09 pm »
Rossi's process of turning nickel into copper..

No , that statement is somewhat misleading/ misunderstanding  : the transmutation part is more of  a side-effect.

this is an interesting read  :https://sites.google.com/site/lenrforthewin/home/are-low-energy-nuclear-reaction-devices-real
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2014, 03:22:25 pm »
I'm open minded, I'm willing to consider the possibility of LENR ... but if you think Rossi is anything but a fraud your brain flew out.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2014, 03:36:02 pm »
Quote
So much girder! Such complex! Very bolts!
^-^ All in all - very wow, so money!
Quote
But if those are fake they are _brilliant_ and the authors could make a living doing CGI and don't need to pretend to build... what _is_ that thing?
A Rube Goldberg paper shredder?
Quote
How about investing US$ 11 million into cold fusion (LENR):
http://coldfusion3.com/blog/it%E2%80%99s-official-us-startup-admits-to-purchasing-rossi%E2%80%99s-e-cat-lenr-technology
I'm honestly confused about the whole Rossi thing. I'm not that much into the finer points of nuclear science to be closed to the possibility, but he seems to be getting more serious investors. Mind you, I'm having a little trouble finding ANYTHING about Industrial Heat, LLC, which is a little weird, not even having a functioning site... or any news from non-free energy sites about the tech or its investors.
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Offline Marco

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2014, 03:42:56 pm »
I doubt those guys running the fund have skin in the game ... the actual money almost certainly comes from people who are not sophisticated investors (probably quite a few pensioners).
 

Offline Kremmen

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2014, 04:13:12 pm »
Rossi's process of turning nickel into copper..

No , that statement is somewhat misleading/ misunderstanding  : the transmutation part is more of  a side-effect.
Pardon me but it _cannot_ be a side effect if we are talking about nuclear fusion; whether cold or hot, makes no difference.
Fusion is by definition the combination of 2 (or more) precursor nuclei into one (or more) product nuclei that are a different element. Such as transmutation of hydrogen via the proton-proton interaction into helium in the sun. No transmutation - no fusion because fusion == transmutation. It is like saying that there is a new kind of fission reaction where you don't _actually_ split an atom but you call it fission anyway. Doh.

Quote
this is an interesting read  :https://sites.google.com/site/lenrforthewin/home/are-low-energy-nuclear-reaction-devices-real
Sigh. Which part do you think made it interesting, actually? Because i didn't spot it. This discussion seems to be full of evasions and oxymorons like the heading itself: LOW energy nuclear reactions. Indeed. By definition nuclear reactions involving the strong interaction (such as fission and yes, fusion) are the _strongest_ interactions known to particle physics. So failure to generate huge amounts of power in these "reactors" does not mean the nuclear interactions themselves would be low energy.

Pons & al are either con artists or sad souls with delusions of competence. Their explanations as to what happens in their experiments are senseless and fly in the face of the most solid theories of modern particle physics. For example they advertise that their experiment produces helium from a hydride where hydrogen is present. Sure as fuck it does not; any helium present was smuggled there by the guys and the only reason they claim this to happen is that the description is somewhat similar to what TV science shows say happens inside the sun. That it only happens in the sun at some 4 million Kelvins and above is already lost on everyone, it seems. There is just no way this particular interaction will take place in room temperature, ever. I mean, it is not just a vague idea, explaining the details of the p-p process as well as the CNO cycle, was worth the Nobel price to Hans Bethe. The theory was that complex and the conditions necessary are nothing like what these guys are tinkering with.

Ok, sorry about the rant. But hey, don't take my word for it. The one place where i go for the truth is arXiv and it didn't disappoint this time either. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1306/1306.6364.pdf

or go to arXiv front page at http://arxiv.org and search Physics for "cold fusion"
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Dr W. Bishop
 

Offline CJWarlock

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2014, 02:17:50 am »
The real problem I see with the free energy , is that it takes away from any alternative energy sources getting a foothold and helping with are moving to better other sources , especially decentralize or distributive energy .
I think there was a point in recent history ,  that education made people resistant to BS , but the powers that be / or want to be , have use the DUMBING DOWN in the schools , to make it easier to bull crap the masses .
What is the worst thing about the believers = people who have limited knowledge fall into being sheep !
Just my understanding of why we are not reaching almost any potential , most the corruption of greed .
The classic definition of propaganda = if you can not hide the truth / you mix it with so many lies that no one will figure it out .

Well it seems you've fallen for a bullshit of your own choosing as well - the conspiracy theory bullshit.

There is no concerted effort to make mankind stupid.

And an insightful analysis of the education reform through last 20 years proves otherwise.

1. There is consistent shift in public education (in USA mainly - therefore I don't know why you don't follow the relevant data before posting) from stimulating creativity in kids to training them to be consumers (rat race attribute included).
2. Reorganisation of system of values follows that shift as a logical consequence. Egocentric needs and means to satisfy them become more important than any honourable values and honest behaviors.
3. Honourable behaviours are in fashion only as long as they serve the goal of material selfsatisfaction, or are profitable to particular big corporation, or are beneficial to the modern system of totally invigilated sheeps. Please keep in mind that the conciousness of being watched 24/7 also shifts the behaviours' patterns from these 100% private (as in being one-one-one with self, just chilling and being oneself) to the more publicly-correct ones (frankly: artificial).
4. That artificialness is one of the hidden (not  noticed at the first sight) factors of so called atomisation of the society. Atomisation means that people are less capable of just talking one to another, and, the key thing, organising, especially into movements. Atomisation is the goal in a pursuit for a obidient, "semi-paralysed" society. Or a sub-goal at least.
5. USA was literally bought by umpteen corporationists quite a few decades ago, the things about NSA and similar agencies are coming out, the Information Awareness Office is a fact, and there are anough teachers in USA (and in other countries too - unfortunately) who speak openly and in details about the shift I mention in point 1.

And an intersting fact: when the reform of education was taking place in Poland in the mid 90's the important participant in the talks was... a representant of Intenational Monetary Fund. There wouldn't be anything suspicious in that (especially if one believes in honesty of banksters' intentions ;)) unless... that guy strongly suggested that: a) the number of public libraries in Poland has to be reduced to 10% (WTF?); b) absolutely no public higher education (which is costly enough already for students) - all studies, universities, universities of technology had to be only paid; c) the level of the education lowered and narrowed to only the knowledge suitable later for corporate employers. And what's the situation now, almost 20 years later? There is a whole lot of people who graduaded universities, including these of technology, but they only have diplomas and a simple set of commands embedded in their minds, and no creative thinking, no wide horisons - they are dumb and shallow as f..k and personal contact with them is artificial. They are nothing like students from before the education who were mostly McGyvers and Einsteins at the same time in comparison to the present-day-students. Of course there are noble exceptions between the last ones. This however does not change the level and mindset of general population of modern students. It seems like only universities where teachers do not obey new directives and teach the students with a way that sparks creative thinking and passion of active learning towards a particular subject have such exceptions.

There is a political bond between USA and Poland of importing the sociotechnical schemes (from USA into Poland) with a variable offset of about 2 years (my priv observation). I followed the thread to the end and studied the case in Poland, in USA and also a bit in England. I did my homework (during last 5 years). Above post proves that enough. And what research you did before stating the old good "all-is-well, keep calm" opinion? ;)

Quote
Mankind is stupid enough by itself.

Speak for yourself and please do not generalise. Generalisation is a bad habbit.

1. There are several particular factors during pregnancy that help or disturb brain development in fetus aswell as the general mental and emotional capacities of the child-to-be-born. The list is too long to include here. Interestingly enough, these factors are not only chemical or physical - they are also socioeconomical (among others) techniques that result in predictable mothers' behaviours that in consequence affect brain development in fetus (there are very interesting researches about what particular input can "programme" what particular things in a child who's yet in womb).
2. There are several particular factors during child's development that help or disturb intelligence, creativity, and so on (nowadays USA public education tending to have attributes related to factors that disturb (actually they help but in making people obey and do not question authority)).
3. There is a general curve of learning capability against age (generally: the younger the kid the more informations he sucks in). Just give the kids stimulating input (in the positive meaning of course). GIGO rule applies here.

Just because you not necessarily realise these points it doesn't mean they don't exist. :) Of course I can understand that simply your field of interest may be placed in something else. In such case I think you'll find my points interesting and... satisfying your natural curiosity of a human being.

Of course education system isn't the only thing to point responsible for people's intelligence nowadays. It's one of many. However, it's not a chance that the horisons of knowledge in general population aren't too wide. Please do not troll forum users here by calling the perfectly trackable "conspiracy" a "theory". ;) I put the word "conspiracy" in quotes because it's more a plan (of shifting towards a more obidient and controllable model of society).
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2014, 12:48:35 pm »
  ...truth

Hear hear!
The deliberate decline of education, and the general dumbing down of Western societies, as part of a wider Globalist agenda are topics I track too. Could post links to some resources, but a certain mod here would delete them as 'off topic conspiracy rubbish'. Ironically proving the point, but never mind. Post away.

Anyway, here's one of those laughable "Power companies hate this!" web adverts. Just the picture. In this one I think they've taken a picture of the ferrite rod antenna coil from a radio receiver.  I'm still looking for the example I wanted to show, because it's so odd. But haven't seen it turn up for a while.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 12:57:36 pm by GeoffS »
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Offline Greg Robinson

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2014, 01:46:38 pm »
Such perpetual...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 01:49:03 pm by Greg Robinson »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2014, 01:56:58 pm »
 :wtf: People are still building Perpetual motion machines? The one from the picture looks impressive but we all know it will fail  >:D I'm a bit embarassed to admit this but my great grandfather build a perpetual motion machine in the 1920's or so. It did run for 3 days...
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2014, 02:07:05 pm »
:wtf: People are still building Perpetual motion machines? The one from the picture looks impressive but we all know it will fail  >:D I'm a bit embarassed to admit this but my great grandfather build a perpetual motion machine in the 1920's or so. It did run for 3 days...
Nice, how did he do it? 3 days is longer than my drinking bird works. I wonder how much energy you could get, if you glue together some 100 of it, mount it to a generator and use rain for the water supply :)

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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2014, 02:21:48 pm »
The Drinking Bird toy is a simple heat engine though isnt it? So it's not free energy but uses thermal energy from its surroundings.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2014, 02:29:57 pm »
Right, but there is no "free energy" anyway. Maybe would be better to call it "unusual energy" devices.
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Offline daqq

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2014, 02:33:36 pm »
Quote
I'm a bit embarassed to admit this but my great grandfather build a perpetual motion machine in the 1920's or so. It did run for 3 days...
There's nothing embarrassing about trying. There's nothing embarrassing about failing.

There IS something embarrassing about scamming well meaning people, screaming loudly that THE MACHINE WILL WORK, ALL I NEED IS A PINT OF UNOBTAINIUM AND AN EXTRA 4 MIL USD, being a smug ass, feeling "sorry" for skeptics, whilst furiously defending a device based on a 4x4 pixel youtube video evidence.

I'm a member of another few forums, on one of which there's a few guys, whom are obsessed by every mention of free energy, will defend against whomever dares doubt it with much vigor. Occasionally a schematic/plan is posted somewhere, and, curiously, they won't build it, they'll just defend it.

One of the amusing tales of free energy took place just recently: A guy claimed a fantastic breakthrough, a simple mechanical machine, that made extra energy from nothing! His evidence and reasoning? A simulation in Algodoo. To sway the silly skeptics, he claimed that "since it works in simulation, and simulations are based on math, and math can't be wrong, or simulations used by all sorts of industries would be wrong, his device MUST work in reality". He also challenged anyone to prove him wrong through math. Apparently not the standard laws of physics math, which apparently did not work, but something else... He was so full of himself, it was almost cute.

NOTE: Video in slovak:
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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2014, 02:55:56 pm »
I don't understand what he says, lots of mathematics that's for sure, but LOL, did he use PHUN as a prove for his device? Yeah, there can't be program bugs, and it is a very accurate and professional physics simulation :-DD

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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2014, 03:05:41 am »
http://everist.org/archives/links/__Education.txt
http://everist.org/archives/links/__Dumbing_down.txt   Not much in that one, it's a peripheral topics on which I see lots of related articles, but couldn't be bothered saving most of them. Also a lot of these fall under different categories, such as Autism, Fluoridation, Vaccination, etc. Those lists are in the same folder.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 03:13:29 am by GeoffS »
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2014, 03:22:07 am »
NOTE: Video in slovak:


Well I've seen slide presentations far more boring than that.
There are a few moments of comedy gold! The swinging hammers thing taking off vertically (in simulation) for instance.
But the best bit by far is the torus with fans inside. What a terrible shame there's no video of turning it on and watching it do nothing at all.

The best results from reading weird science and over-unity forums, is when you come across something really bizarre like the report below. Unrelated to perpetual motion machines, but just... strange. Did it really happen? Who says we know everything in classical physics yet?

http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/e-wall.html
"Invisible Electrostatic Wall" at 3M adhesive tape plant
3M accidentally create a force field 
David Swenson of 3M Corporation describes an anomaly where workers encountered a strange "invisible wall" in the area under a fast-moving sheet of electrically charged polypropelene film in a factory. This "invisible wall" was strong enough to prevent humans from passing through. A person near this "wall" was unable to turn, and so had to walk backwards to retreat from it.
This occurred in late summer in South Carolina, in extremely high humidity. Polypropelene (PP) film on 50K ft. rolls 20ft wide was being slit and transferred to multiple smaller spools.

http://classic-web.archive.org/web/19961226130950/www.att.com/conferences/eosesd/index.html
17th Annual Electrical Overstress / Electrostatic Discharge Symposium

http://www.esdjournal.com/articles/final/final.htm
http://www.esdjournal.com/articles/final/final.htm
In August of 1980 in the southeast United States, problems were being experienced at a polypropylene plant. Strange things were happening around a film slitting machine.
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Offline zapta

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2014, 03:40:47 am »
Around here the government tries to suppress certain techniques of free energy:



Conspiracy proved!

 

Offline skipjackrc4

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2014, 03:56:42 am »
Due to some rather unusual circumstances, I may be in the position to "validate" a Bedini Motor generator thing-a-mijig.  I've tried to convince this guy that he is wasting his time, but he is fully convinced that it will work.  Evidently he has it running now, so I kindly offered to test it for him and prove that he wasted his money. 

He showed me the design, and all it is is an overly complicated contraption (with spinning magnets, of course) that hits a lead acid battery with short pulses of a few hundred volts.  Bedini claims that you can use a single battery to charge a large number of batteries, and that the charged batteries have an increase capacity and become fully charged off the single driving battery.  Uh-huh.  The increased capacity thing makes sense, due to the desulphation (did I spell that right?) caused by the high voltage pulses.  Amplifying the energy?  Nope. 

My acquaintance has his reputation fully covered though, because the energy "created" by the machine uses a "different form" of potential that can't be detected using conventional equipment.  How convenient.  I have a feeling that, even after showing that the output power is lower than the input power, and that the charged batteries contain less energy than the original driving battery, he will still be fully convinced that he has proven every engineer in the world wrong.  Still, I'm looking forward to scientifically ripping this thing apart.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2014, 05:48:31 am »
My workshop aircon unit uses 1.6kW of electricity to produce 5.5kW of heat. Stick a load of efficient thermocouples in series between the hot and cold bits of the heat pump and BAM! Free electricity. Easy.

Kickstarter anyone?
I think the origin of this lies in the fact that airconds did  achieve some substantial leaps in efficiency some years back,& they could get more hot or cold air out with less power in.

From that  the new system could be  labelled as "equivalent to an older 5.5kW unit",which although it is right,is silly,as no one is selling the old types anymore.

Marketing folks (who don't know anything technical about their product) thought,"All that other stuff is confusing--just call it a 5.5 kW unit"

Of course,we have similar things in our midst--A TV Transmitter puts 10kW up the spout,which,the customers are told
is 100kW (I know,EIRP,but they  don't know what that means)

RMS is another made up thing,done for convenience---newbies are amazed when they read 340v peak,& think they have done something wonderful!

Then there is the much used,but technically wrong term,"RMS Power".
Even worse,are the various types of Amplifier power ratings used by scam artists in the "audiophool" area.

 

Tac Eht Xilef

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Re: Free Energy Scams and Fakes
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2014, 07:26:16 am »
NOTE: Video in slovak:


Well I've seen slide presentations far more boring than that.
There are a few moments of comedy gold! The swinging hammers thing taking off vertically (in simulation) for instance.

I'd kill a box full of kittens for a SPICE program that looked like that. It's like a cross between a simulator, The Simpsons, Super Mario, & Nyan cat ...
 


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