Author Topic: we can't trust our outsourcing, so we want to embed little boxes (Read 5388 times)

linux-works · « **on:** February 24, 2014, 06:52:05 pm »

in our little boxes!

(cue the pete seeger song. yeah I know, he didn't write that song).

link:

http://www.darpa.mil/NewsEvents/Releases/2014/02/24.aspx

this should have been dated april-1.

obvious way to fix this problem: bring parts manufacturing BACK to the west.

but no, little boxes inside little boxes is the right way. yup!

(facepalm)

N2IXK · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2014, 07:54:48 pm »

Sure, but then companies will discover that China can make the "dielets" cheaper, so they will outsource those...

linux-works · « **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2014, 07:58:42 pm »

I waved my detector wand over this 1k resistor and it didn't reply back.

into the trash it goes.

NEXT!

I can't believe anyone would seriously suggest this as any kind of 'solution'.

T3sl4co1l · « **Reply #3 on:** February 25, 2014, 12:05:58 am »

Ya know, for all the immense layers of abstraction and paperwork and verification and crap they have to go through, just to make a commodity part with a vastly magnified cost even just in the catalog, let alone by the time it's installed in the equipment... one would have to imagine actually paying for a local fab factory would be cost effective.

But then, one would be forgetting that military budgets are in fact unlimited. High costs? Let's pay for an investigative commission to understand the sources of these costs!...

Tim

linux-works · « **Reply #4 on:** February 25, 2014, 12:15:42 am »

with the mass amounts of money the US spent on the last decade+ of wars, we could have funded (from gov money) the bring-back of parts manufacturing and known, for sure, that the parts are what they say they are.

create parts for the big players (gov, defense, those guys) and insist that we also be able to benefit from the factories. I'd like to see simple parts be made in the US again. it would create such a boost in the economy. but nooooo, we have to fund 'other guys' who are part of the war machine. those are the ones who benefit. and everyone is still stuck buying parts from china ;(

tom66 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 25, 2014, 01:02:19 am »

It could also be invested in something a lot better which doesn't kill thousands of people a year. I think with over $2tn in space and medical instead of military we would have men on Mars and have permanently cured cancer. /rant

echen1024 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 25, 2014, 03:11:22 am »

Quote from: tom66 on February 25, 2014, 01:02:19 am

It could also be invested in something a lot better which doesn't kill thousands of people a year. I think with over $2tn in space and medical instead of military we would have men on Mars and have permanently cured cancer. /rant

Bu... But... the corporations would be unhappy.

EEVblog · « **Reply #7 on:** February 25, 2014, 04:20:46 am »

Oh FFS, the counterfeit parts problem only exists if you let it.
Buy direct from the manufacturers and you don't have a problem.

linux-works · « **Reply #8 on:** February 25, 2014, 04:45:16 am »

do you remember when newegg had bought some bad items (I forget the details; cpus? I'd have to look up the details). it was a few years ago and newegg bought a bunch of things they were pretty sure were genuine (and newegg does not try to sell junk; they are pretty reputable) but they turned out to be fakes.

I buy all critical parts at mouser (etc etc) and avoid china. but you know, I've fixed so many broken cisco, netgear (you name it) routers and switches due to bad caps, even the big players are getting fooled. I can see no-name companies intentionally picking duff caps but hard to believe cisco and that crowd buy fakes.

I've had asus motherboards also blow their caps way too soon in their lifetimes.

no, I'm not so sure its trivially easy to avoid fakes. there are so many products by brand name companies that show signs of using fake parts. I know ebay sellers do this fully on purpose, but it does not make sense that everyone does this on purpose.

ampdoctor · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2014, 04:59:37 am »

Don't know what's going on in the military now, but back in the day (think mid 80's), anything mission critical had to be completely US manufactured. You also had to have full traceability from point of manufacture to end use. If you worked in airframes or the jet shop and ordered a box of paperclips it was game on! It was a paperwork nightmare beyond the telling, and I don't even want to think about the cost. I don't even want to know what special kind of hell the mfg had to go through to become an authorized GSA vendor. If you want to know where the infamous $500 hammers and toilet seats came from that's it. Granted, counterfeit parts were almost non-existent back then, but if they used that system today the odds of getting a counterfeit part would be close to null.

linux-works · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2014, 05:18:35 am »

its my belief that we have shifted from long-term to short-term thinking. a lot of the world has. we take the short and cheap way out and pocket the savings.

things made today are using the cheapest possible parts and materials. this was not always the case, but it sure seems to be now.

its not hard to believe that even defense and military will sometimes look the other way and buy 2nd rate or cheaper parts. bribes happen, etc. someone pays someone off to let their pet company supply parts. again, short-term thinking - and by the time the bad parts are found, I've switched jobs and taken my money with me!

TMM · « **Reply #11 on:** February 25, 2014, 05:58:58 am »

Quote from: linux-works on February 25, 2014, 05:18:35 am

its my belief that we have shifted from long-term to short-term thinking. a lot of the world has. we take the short and cheap way out and pocket the savings.

things made today are using the cheapest possible parts and materials. this was not always the case, but it sure seems to be now.

its not hard to believe that even defense and military will sometimes look the other way and buy 2nd rate or cheaper parts. bribes happen, etc. someone pays someone off to let their pet company supply parts. again, short-term thinking - and by the time the bad parts are found, I've switched jobs and taken my money with me!

Agree 100%. Governments are dysfunctional for the exact same reason - they want to do something and get a pat on the back for it tomorrow, rather than do the right thing which might be starting a 30year project which won't be finished in their careers.

BravoV · « **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2014, 06:05:43 am »

You just can not complain too much without touching "the root" that causing it, this is one of the good examples of a capitalism that is working "effectively".

If you really hate this, then you should consider not to adopt pure capitalism anymore, or maybe transforming into so called "half-assed" capitalism aka semi socialism, or even pure socialism that maybe your grand-dad or your dad had fought so hard during cold war era.

Again, will you consider that when voting for your representative ?

Quoting wikipedia, definition of capitalism ...
"Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry and the means of production are controlled by private owners with the goal of making profits in a market economy."

Its basically superseding everything, like the purpose to improve local economy which means ... "for the People".

So if the words "for the People" becomes meaningless, then others like nationalism, national security, military integrity are basically nothing, just a lip services and becoming a joke

, especially those capitalists are in control at those Bozos in White House, House of Representatives and Pentagon. Edit : Forgot to put Wallstreet in the list.

KJDS · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2014, 07:59:06 am »

Every military job I've worked on has been urgent. So has just about every commercial job. In both cases you sort out a block diagram, kick a few ideas round and then identify the long lead items. On a commercial job then a quick internal review is held and the long lead items are ordered.

On a military job, when delivery is needed in 10 months and the long lead items are on a 9 month leadtime in volume, then a series of reviews will be held, and tests need to be carried out, so there's a 4 month wait to get the low volume parts to do the tests. Once approval is finally given, then the pressure is on to find parts on a short lead time, which can mean the grey market which usually means trouble.

linux-works · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2014, 09:04:01 pm »

the only way I'd trust an outsourced build is if I had a guy there, full time, part of the local factory, that would be there to checkpoint every single decision that could affect parts or build quality (including qa testing).

those that are left to do this on their own, will frequently pick bad parts and even run their lines a '3rd shift' that you were not aware of or willing to allow.

those companies that micromanage the lines will get the quality they design for. but who, in the non-large company world has resources to baby sit the builders? and even those that could do that, many won't so that THEY save some money, too. the 'sell and run' mentality is not just in asia and sometimes companies are perfectly fine knowing full well their builds are using crap components. as long as it works long enough for the warranty to expire, their beancounters are happy and bosses get raises.

Len · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2014, 09:47:31 pm »

Quote from: EEVblog on February 25, 2014, 04:20:46 am

Oh FFS, the counterfeit parts problem only exists if you let it.
Buy direct from the manufacturers and you don't have a problem.

Easier said than done...

Quote from: linux-works on February 25, 2014, 04:45:16 am

do you remember when newegg had bought some bad items (I forget the details; cpus? I'd have to look up the details).

It was fake Intel Core i7 CPUs. I was surprised that even a large retailer like Newegg couldn't buy direct from Intel. Companies have no choice but to go through distributors, with every step in the supply chain adding an opportunity to slip in some fakes.

KJDS · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2014, 10:13:20 pm »

Years ago I talked to the Marketing director at TI asking for an account as we were going to be using 120,000 a year of a £3 part. He laughed a little, said add another 0 to the quantity and he'd do it as a favour, but until then it was distribution only.

linux-works · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2014, 10:18:39 pm »

yeah, I've heard that about TI. they are a company-to-company company these days

the 'you and I' don't directly exist.

Phaedrus · « **Reply #18 on:** February 25, 2014, 10:27:52 pm »

That's a $50,000/mo account. That's still a fair amount of revenue. Unless the part was really low margin, or he didn't see any opportunity for your business to grow, it's still a bit dickish to decline an account for you.

Sure, I bet they have lots of megabuck per month accounts, but they could still take on a few dozen multi-kilobuck accounts and put them under control of some $18/hr Jr. Sales Associate and still make a killing.

linux-works · « **Reply #19 on:** February 25, 2014, 10:52:09 pm »

a friend of mine is a senior long-term TI guy. what he tells me, story wise, matches up exactly with that experience of 'go away son, you bother me'. you are small potatoes and TI deals in super huge quantities. its a 'different' company culture than what I normally am aware of, but this is, apparently, how TI really is. they are a technology company and they deal business to business at the largest scales, pretty much, only.

KJDS · « **Reply #20 on:** February 25, 2014, 11:10:50 pm »

Quote from: Phaedrus on February 25, 2014, 10:27:52 pm

That's a $50,000/mo account. That's still a fair amount of revenue. Unless the part was really low margin, or he didn't see any opportunity for your business to grow, it's still a bit dickish to decline an account for you.

Sure, I bet they have lots of megabuck per month accounts, but they could still take on a few dozen multi-kilobuck accounts and put them under control of some $18/hr Jr. Sales Associate and still make a killing.

That's why they have distributors. I won't criticize them for their approach, just point out why many, even medium large organizations can't deal direct with manufacturers.


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Author Topic: we can't trust our outsourcing, so we want to embed little boxes (Read 5388 times)

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