EV-based road transportation is not viable

[nctnico]

I wonder if capacitive power coupling would make sense for curb side charging. The need to have the charging connector high up to avoid water is mostly avoided without an ohmic connection. Capacitive coupling doesn't require a ton of copper either, so relatively cheap compared to inductive.

I doubt it. The required electric fields (and voltages) would be huge causing other problems that need expensive solutions.

[tom66]

Inductive charging is a thing but the losses so far (and the cost of doing it) seem to limit it to prototypes and demonstrations.  I could see it being useful for e.g. electric taxis at an airport, allowing for a 'cab rank' system where vehicles move forwards for every customer.  But then you could also make that work with regular charging cables by just designing the system a little differently.

Interestingly enough the first EV charging connectors were based on inductive coupling, a bit like a toothbrush on steroids.  This was ostensibly for safety; both electrically, and it precluded any need to lock the connector in so driving off with it plugged in was not a disaster.  Type2 connectors lock to the car and cars interlock the park pawl when charging.

As for the size of chargers on a narrow street, I doubt this is a major issue.  Chargers can be mounted on properties with owners permission (no different to road signs being mounted on them, or even traffic lights, which I've seen in one town.)  They can be rather small units, a maximum of a few inches deep if needed.  Or you can have a solution like Oxford for people who do regularly get to park outside of their home but can't safely get the charging cable across the pavement. 

We may need to eventually start allocating parking on these streets rather than the free-for-all it is.  It may have worked okay when 1 in 10 people had a car and that car was an Austin Mini but I can't think how a big bin lorry gets up there for instance, that's gotta be tight.  Also doesn't seem fun to open your front door into the running exhaust of a car. 

[Marco]

I doubt it. The required electric fields (and voltages) would be huge causing other problems that need expensive solutions.

How structurally strong can high permittivity ceramics be made? If you touched the ceramic with a slightly compliant electrode for negligible airgap, you could make a relatively low impedance connection in a small area.

[tggzzz]

As for the size of chargers on a narrow street, I doubt this is a major issue.  Chargers can be mounted on properties with owners permission (no different to road signs being mounted on them, or even traffic lights, which I've seen in one town.)  They can be rather small units, a maximum of a few inches deep if needed.  Or you can have a solution like Oxford for people who do regularly get to park outside of their home but can't safely get the charging cable across the pavement. 

That tiny (sample size: 5!) Oxford trial is an interesting concept, but your statement is notably more optimistic than the reference itself!

The reference gives examples where it will be problematic. Unsurprisingly some problems are the same as I have mentioned previously, but the report mentions more problems I hadn't thought of. Key phrase from the last paragraph "...the approach can work for some residents".

We may need to eventually start allocating parking on these streets rather than the free-for-all it is.  It may have worked okay when 1 in 10 people had a car and that car was an Austin Mini but I can't think how a big bin lorry gets up there for instance, that's gotta be tight.  Also doesn't seem fun to open your front door into the running exhaust of a car.

That isn't going to work for many reasons - some legal, some practical, some because of human behaviour.

Clearly you have zero experience of living in an area where you think that might be applicable.

[Marco]

Chargers can be mounted on properties with owners permission

People are lazy and forgetful, relying on people to put cable protectors across the cable after plugging in is a lost cause. The moment there's a 100 cables running across the sidewalk in a street, a fair few of them will be tripping hazards. Dose makes the poison.

[themadhippy]

The moment there's a 100 cables running across the sidewalk in a street, a fair few of them will be tripping hazards

why should that bother the arrogant arsehole drivers who think the pavement is there personnel parking spot,sod the disabled and sod those with prams or buggys

[MadScientist]

As range increases and usage patterns more to suit BEVs you’ll find little on street “ slow charging “ I have friends within 2nd gen BEVs   , that do almost all charging at home or in fast dedicated charge points. The future is not wast arrays of scattered low power charge points , it’s dedicated road accessed “ filing “ stations for BEVs

[tom66]

The moment there's a 100 cables running across the sidewalk in a street, a fair few of them will be tripping hazards

why should that bother the arrogant arsehole drivers who think the pavement is there personnel parking spot,sod the disabled and sod those with prams or buggys

Indeed, and people already leave their bins out. For the narrow street in Bristol(?) that tggzzz noted, it's not as if the left hand pavement is really all that useful anyway, so cables crossing that path aren't a disaster.

[tggzzz]

Chargers can be mounted on properties with owners permission

People are lazy and forgetful, relying on people to put cable protectors across the cable after plugging in is a lost cause. The moment there's a 100 cables running across the sidewalk in a street, a fair few of them will be tripping hazards. Dose makes the poison.

And screw people in wheelchairs, on buggies, or even crutches.

Yes, that has happened to my mother, and she had to turn round and get someone else to help her drive her buggy 100m along the road between parked cars and moving traffic.

Dangerous, bloody dangerous.

[tggzzz]

As range increases and usage patterns more to suit BEVs you’ll find little on street “ slow charging “ I have friends within 2nd gen BEVs   , that do almost all charging at home or in fast dedicated charge points. The future is not wast arrays of scattered low power charge points , it’s dedicated road accessed “ filing “ stations for BEVs

False.

A rose tinted view of an ideal future.

Even if it was valid, proponents can't simply ignore the problems of how to get there from here.

[tggzzz]

The moment there's a 100 cables running across the sidewalk in a street, a fair few of them will be tripping hazards

why should that bother the arrogant arsehole drivers who think the pavement is there personnel parking spot,sod the disabled and sod those with prams or buggys

Indeed, and people already leave their bins out. For the narrow street in Bristol(?) that tggzzz noted, it's not as if the left hand pavement is really all that useful anyway, so cables crossing that path aren't a disaster.

Oh, that's all right then. NOT.

My mother met a cable on the pavement inside one of the rubber protection strips: her buggy grounded.

She had to wait until someone came along to help her, then they pushed the buggy in the wrong place and almost broke her back. Then she had to turn round and get someone else to help her drive her buggy 100m along the road between parked cars and moving traffic.

She was traumatised to the extent that she stopped leaving her house to go to the shops unless someone was with her. She was made to feel an invalid person (cf an invalid person). In most buildings and establishments that would be grounds for a lawsuit.

But she, and the many others like her, don't count. Do they?

[tggzzz]

... For the narrow street in Bristol(?)...

Bristol. Or Cardiff. Or Bath. Or Lyme Regis. Or Frome. Or Cheltenham. Or Stroud. Or Nailsworth. Or Tewkesbury. Or Stamford. Or Lacock. ...........

I can easily find similar streets and parking in any village/town/city centre that was built before the car became dominant. That's 99% of them.

Not Milton Keynes, though. But who wants to live there!

[coppice]

... For the narrow street in Bristol(?)...

Bristol. Or Cardiff. Or Bath. Or Lyme Regis. Or Frome. Or Cheltenham. Or Stroud. Or Nailsworth. Or Tewkesbury. Or Stamford. Or Lacock. ...........

I can easily find similar streets and parking in any village/town/city centre that was built before the car became dominant. That's 99% of them.

Not Milton Keynes, though. But who wants to live there!

Try the North of England. In many towns the majority of the streets are like that, even in the affluent parts of town.

[Marco]

Thankfully a lot of towns started with gullys along the road here, left some space. Any way, that's why I'm suggesting having a low cost charging connector at ground level. So you can just put them in high density at the curb.

Pop up connectors are going to be ridiculously expensive and fragile. A reliable and user friendly galvanic connection at ground level seems hard to engineer, though maybe not impossible. Maybe a very chunky connector with a drain pipe beneath the contacts, so you can just pressure wash it occasionally?

[tggzzz]

... For the narrow street in Bristol(?)...

Bristol. Or Cardiff. Or Bath. Or Lyme Regis. Or Frome. Or Cheltenham. Or Stroud. Or Nailsworth. Or Tewkesbury. Or Stamford. Or Lacock. ...........

I can easily find similar streets and parking in any village/town/city centre that was built before the car became dominant. That's 99% of them.

Not Milton Keynes, though. But who wants to live there!

Try the North of England. In many towns the majority of the streets are like that, even in the affluent parts of town.

Zero surprise here! I only mentioned a (very) few places I could think of that I had been to

tom66 lists his location as "Cambridgeshire". Having lived there I would characterise it as

• a few small old bits
• lots of new bits
• lots of space, even in the old bits
• bloody boring, except for Ely and Cambridge centres

In other words it does not represent typical UK townscapes.

Given that, it isn't surprising if tom66 (and some people from the US on other fora) don't understand the impracticalities of their vision in "other places". Dismissing other people's completely valid experiences of "other places" does not reflect well on them or their position.

[TimFox]

Meanwhile, over here, a newspaper article today reported that the US government had reached an agreement with Tesla to allow non-Tesla vehicles to use the Tesla charging network in the next couple of years.

[tggzzz]

Thankfully a lot of towns started with gullys along the road here, left some space. Any way, that's why I'm suggesting having a low cost charging connector at ground level. So you can just put them in high density at the curb.

Water/urine/etc ingress and dirt ingress into the connectors and charging controller electronics?

Comms to payment mechanisms?

Not insurmountable, but definitely non-trivial, especially when repairs over the decades occur.

Pop up connectors are going to be ridiculously expensive and fragile. A reliable and user friendly galvanic connection at ground level seems hard to engineer, though maybe not impossible. Maybe a very chunky connector with a drain pipe beneath the contacts, so you can just pressure wash it occasionally?

Quite

Have a chat to the people with experience of telecom footway boxes. They have plenty of experiences of low energy infrastructure. Charging infrastructure can never be low energy

[rstofer]

There will be a solution to each and every problem - one way or another.  Can't lay cables on the ground, build overhead stanchions from building wall to edge of curb and then drop the power.  We used stanchions a lot in the aircraft business.  Or, dig a ditch across the sidewalk.  Or hydrobore under the sidewalk if it is a landmark.

Every single one of these problems has a solution.

On July 20, 1969, the US put a man on the Moon and I quit using the word "can't". 

We decided to do it and then we went and did it!  Pretty simple concept:  Decide to do something, apply the resources and get it done.

Gasoline stations will become a dying industry and some enterprising group will convert them to charging stations.  Not every car will be totally exhausted any more than we let the gas gauge get down to a smidge higher than 'E'.  I like to keep my tank at least 1/2 full - when I had a gas tank.  Since I'm retired, I keep the battery totally charged.  I've got nothing but time.

All these supposed 'show stopper' problems will look like pebbles before a steam roller when .gov puts up tax incentives, investment credits and other devices to facilitate the construction of charging points.  Low interest rates will also help and, yes, .gov needs to bulldoze stumbling blocks.  Clear the blocks and turn private industry loose.  Make it happen!

It's going to happen in spite of the naysayers.  Just remember 1969 and toss "can't" from your vocabulary.  I don't want to hear problems, I want to hear solutions.

[TimFox]

Converting what we used to call "service stations" to include electric charging hardware on the same premises as gasoline pumps should be straightforward, with due regard to safety.
Markets change:  as I remember history, when petroleum started to dominate the market for fuel (ca. 1850), kerosene was the most popular refinery product (for lamps, etc.), and the more volatile gasoline was a less-profitable byproduct.
With ICE vehicles becoming popular, that shifted.
Much later, kerosene became the fuel of choice for jet aircraft.

[nctnico]

It's going to happen in spite of the naysayers.  Just remember 1969 and toss "can't" from your vocabulary.  I don't want to hear problems, I want to hear solutions.

Hydrogen...  The New Oil

And it is not about technical problems, but about cost. It has been over 50 years since 1969 and space tourism still isn't a thing the average person can afford. Going into space isn't a technical problem, it is a financial one. Actually, most technical problems go away by throwing enough money at it. But somebody has to pay the bill.

[rstofer]

Of course somebody has to pay the bills and it will ultimately be the vehicle owner.  They will pay in higher electric costs (may also affect non-vehicle owners if new power plants are required), road taxes, vehicle price, perhaps a tax per mile and any of a number of other revenue raising schemes.

The taxpayers will always be the payers.  That's the way the system works.  Businesses do not pay taxes, they just slide the tax off to the customer.  When you are at the bottom of the pyramid, you pay real taxes.

Like musical chairs, when the music stops, somebody won't be able to afford their car.  That's another solution to traffic jams so don't expect any government bailouts at the bottom of the pyramid.

[Marco]

Water/urine/etc ingress and dirt ingress into the connectors and charging controller electronics?

That's why I said capacitive at first, you just need to roughly mate two surfaces. A little bit of dust and even water is not a problem, brush away the worst of it, use say a magnetic clamp to attach your cable. Magsafe for cars.

Have a chat to the people with experience of telecom footway boxes. They have plenty of experiences of low energy infrastructure. Charging infrastructure can never be low energy

But then what use is their experience?

For higher voltages you could try to have the plug suck vacuum to get a good seal, remaining water inside the socket can be flashed off. You can use a detector electrode just outside the seal as a fail safe so people walking bear foot past a slightly leaky plug don't get tingling feet.

[nctnico]

Like musical chairs, when the music stops, somebody won't be able to afford their car.  That's another solution to traffic jams so don't expect any government bailouts at the bottom of the pyramid.

Do you watch the news? Did you see people storming the capitol building in the US? Did you see the violent riots in France that went on for weeks? Life isn't a game. Life is for real and heads will roll if the public becomes disgruntled. The French did that for real BTW a couple of hundred years ago. In the real world, the bottom of the pyramid is the group of people that need to stay satisfied up to a certain level to prevent chaos and anarchy.

[nctnico]

Water/urine/etc ingress and dirt ingress into the connectors and charging controller electronics?

That's why I said capacitive at first, you just need to roughly mate two surfaces. A little bit of dust and even water is not a problem, brush away the worst of it, use say a magnetic clamp to attach your cable. Magsafe for cars.

So your solution is to wipe a capacitor clean every evening (even in rain / snow) to charge your car for the next day after a days of hard work and wanting to have dinner? When I get home, I'm done with the car. Many times I don't even lock the car. I just want to go inside, have dinner and enjoy my evening.

But put some numbers to your capacitive charging idea and you'll see that it ends up needing extremely high voltages (likely in the hundreds of kV) to transfer a decent amount of power over a distance (say like 20cm).

[Marco]

There will be a solution to each and every problem - one way or another.  Can't lay cables on the ground, build overhead stanchions from building wall to edge of curb and then drop the power.  We used stanchions a lot in the aircraft business.  Or, dig a ditch across the sidewalk.  Or hydrobore under the sidewalk if it is a landmark.

The problem isn't getting a cable to the curb, the problem is where to put the originating socket.

Charging poles near the curb takes curb space. High up near the buildings/front gardens, relies on people to be well behaved. Pop up charging poles are expensive and fragile. Not using an originating socket at all, but using a retractable cable from sidewalk level, which plugs directly into the car, is also expensive and fragile.

So your solution is to wipe a capacitor clean every evening (even in rain / snow) to charge your car for the next day after a days of hard work and wanting to have dinner? When I get home, I'm done with the car. Many times I don't even lock the car. I just want to go inside, have dinner and enjoy my evening.

All curb side charging solutions are shit in one way or another, just thinking about what would be the least shitty.

Maybe charging plates in the road surface, with a mechanism under the car to make contact with it? Again capacitive to save on the massive metal costs for inductive solutions, the mechanism under the car would still add cost, but the road level infrastructure can be relatively cheap.