EV-based road transportation is not viable

[tszaboo]

As I opined I think road pricing is seen as the way forward. More progressive , targeted and capable of changing habits

Taxing is not going to work at all to change habits. Anyone thinking that is a complete fool. It has been tried to death in the NL and it didn't reduce the number of cars (quite the opposite) and only drove up inflation. People have to get from A to B to earn money. There should be less taxes on cars because cars enable people to make more money (spending less time travelling or not doing any work at all) and thus generate more revenue from income taxes and economic growth as a whole.

This is how it works in reality:

People switch from cars to alternative transport if cars are expensive. Which is an unfortunate event, shouldn't really be the end goal of any administration, because it only means that they are creating a failed society.
When they cancelled the price stop in Hungary, the number of cars on the road decreased significantly. The price of fuel went up by ~25% in a day. Here the same happens if the living cost would be even remotely comparable. It's not, we don't have to pay 130% of the average salary for mortgage.
What you are describing is that the cost of transport is in the elastic part of this graph (if you extend it the straight line becomes a hyperbole)

What is there not to understand about 'prices have quadrupled'? Cost efficient storage is a problem that has not been solved at all; that is just getting started with pilot projects.

Frank energie. The price this year was 10c to 30c per kwh this year. Fixed price should be banned.

[MadScientist]

People switch from cars to alternative transport if cars are expensive. Which is an unfortunate event, shouldn't really be the end goal of any administration, because it only means that they are creating a failed society.

In most developed European countries the goal is to reduce dependance on private car usage. New motorways are now considered bad planning and commuter rail is preferred. Aggressive car reduction projects like conjestion   charging restricting car access and reducing car parking are being introduced. Couple this with increased taxes on fuel and annual car ownership and you can see the general trend in urban planning is decidedly anti car

So the voting public largely supporting “ green policies” reject your ridiculous asertion this is creating a “ failed society “

 everywhere you look you see cars on the back foot. Road engineering is disincentivising cars , parking bans , wholesale urban pedestrian areas , the return of road based light rail , restrictions on car access , reductions in allowances for cars and 20kph speed restrictions etc

All this points tons successful society not a failed one. The supremacy of the car is over , in my capital city historic streets were vandalised to accomadate more cars in tneb60s and seventies , this would be unthinkable nowadays. In fact now roads are smaller as cycle lanes , pedestrian areas and other road works have removed car road space dignificantly

These are not social failures they are successes where people quality of living is prioritised over polluting private transport

[coppice]

People switch from cars to alternative transport if cars are expensive. Which is an unfortunate event, shouldn't really be the end goal of any administration, because it only means that they are creating a failed society.

In most developed European countries the goal is to reduce dependance on private car usage. New motorways are now considered bad planning and commuter rail is preferred. Aggressive car reduction projects like conjestion   charging restricting car access and reducing car parking are being introduced. Couple this with increased taxes on fuel and annual car ownership and you can see the general trend in urban planning is decidedly anti car

So the voting public largely supporting “ green policies” reject your ridiculous asertion this is creating a “ failed society “

 everywhere you look you see cars on the back foot. Road engineering is disincentivising cars , parking bans , wholesale urban pedestrian areas , the return of road based light rail , restrictions on car access , reductions in allowances for cars and 20kph speed restrictions etc

All this points tons successful society not a failed one. The supremacy of the car is over , in my capital city historic streets were vandalised to accomadate more cars in tneb60s and seventies , this would be unthinkable nowadays. In fact now roads are smaller as cycle lanes , pedestrian areas and other road works have removed car road space dignificantly

These are not social failures they are successes where people quality of living is prioritised over polluting private transport

Town planner: someone who plans towns in order to make enough money not to have to live in one.

[MadScientist]

People switch from cars to alternative transport if cars are expensive. Which is an unfortunate event, shouldn't really be the end goal of any administration, because it only means that they are creating a failed society.

In most developed European countries the goal is to reduce dependance on private car usage. New motorways are now considered bad planning and commuter rail is preferred. Aggressive car reduction projects like conjestion   charging restricting car access and reducing car parking are being introduced. Couple this with increased taxes on fuel and annual car ownership and you can see the general trend in urban planning is decidedly anti car

So the voting public largely supporting “ green policies” reject your ridiculous asertion this is creating a “ failed society “

 everywhere you look you see cars on the back foot. Road engineering is disincentivising cars , parking bans , wholesale urban pedestrian areas , the return of road based light rail , restrictions on car access , reductions in allowances for cars and 20kph speed restrictions etc

All this points tons successful society not a failed one. The supremacy of the car is over , in my capital city historic streets were vandalised to accomadate more cars in tneb60s and seventies , this would be unthinkable nowadays. In fact now roads are smaller as cycle lanes , pedestrian areas and other road works have removed car road space dignificantly

These are not social failures they are successes where people quality of living is prioritised over polluting private transport

Town planner: someone who plans towns in order to make enough money not to have to live in one.

Ah.   Cynics the people that struggle to get out of bed each day

[nctnico]

People switch from cars to alternative transport if cars are expensive. Which is an unfortunate event, shouldn't really be the end goal of any administration, because it only means that they are creating a failed society.

In most developed European countries the goal is to reduce dependance on private car usage. New motorways are now considered bad planning and commuter rail is preferred.

Again: this has been tried to death in the NL already and failed missarably. Nowadays they are catching up on building new and more roads over here. On top of that people may receive a higher allowance for work related car travel. The NL government has given up chasing what is a pipe dream.

The problem is that public transport goes from one hub to another. I have worked at various companies that are located in large industrial areas that had no public transport connection at all. IOW: if your home is close to a train station and your work is close to a train station, public transport works. Otherwise it just doesn't. Making owning a car more expensive doesn't change the situation. It just makes working more expensive for many people. I've seen various good engineers leaving companies due to travel time and costs. A real loss for the company involved but completely understandable.

[coppice]

People switch from cars to alternative transport if cars are expensive. Which is an unfortunate event, shouldn't really be the end goal of any administration, because it only means that they are creating a failed society.

In most developed European countries the goal is to reduce dependance on private car usage. New motorways are now considered bad planning and commuter rail is preferred. Aggressive car reduction projects like conjestion   charging restricting car access and reducing car parking are being introduced. Couple this with increased taxes on fuel and annual car ownership and you can see the general trend in urban planning is decidedly anti car

So the voting public largely supporting “ green policies” reject your ridiculous asertion this is creating a “ failed society “

 everywhere you look you see cars on the back foot. Road engineering is disincentivising cars , parking bans , wholesale urban pedestrian areas , the return of road based light rail , restrictions on car access , reductions in allowances for cars and 20kph speed restrictions etc

All this points tons successful society not a failed one. The supremacy of the car is over , in my capital city historic streets were vandalised to accomadate more cars in tneb60s and seventies , this would be unthinkable nowadays. In fact now roads are smaller as cycle lanes , pedestrian areas and other road works have removed car road space dignificantly

These are not social failures they are successes where people quality of living is prioritised over polluting private transport

Town planner: someone who plans towns in order to make enough money not to have to live in one.

Ah.   Cynics the people that struggle to get out of bed each day

People who want to plan other people's lives build dystopias, not utopias.

[tom66]

The end goal is for public transit to reach the convenience of the private car (or to substitute that in another way).   In many European cities this is already the case for personal transport.   For instance in London it's usually faster to take public transport than drive, especially so in rush hours.  The public transport infrastructure can cope with this demand.  The road infrastructure, on the other hand, can't really cope with the number of people who want to drive -- roads grind to a relative halt.  The average speed on London roads is about 10 mph during day time and even lower during rush hour.  Some dream of car ownership, that.  Thing is, this kind of pattern is seen all over the world in big cities. The only way to escape it is to not live in a big city, but about 70% of the western world does, so you can't ignore it.

I think that as autonomous vehicles come about the model of private car ownership will get completely shaken up.  People will still own cars, in some cases it will be more convenient.  But if you could get a car on demand at a similar convenience to owning a car, whilst having none of the inconvenience and fixed costs that owning a car entails, that could be pretty attractive.  The real benefit here is optimisation.  You often don't need a 5 seater car, not for your commute and not to go to the shop.  You'd be happy with a 1 or 2 seater.  So that's what you hire.  If you're going to the airport you get the 4 seater with extra luggage space.  (But that car doesn't park at the airport - it drops you off and then gets another customer.)  If you're going to buy a sofa you hire the auto-van with space for your load.  No more buying a massive SUV because twice a year you go to the dump and you'd rather not do a second trip.  On the highway all vehicles heading in the same direction join together in a convoy to maximise range and efficiency.   It changes the dynamic of a private car completely.   It also dispels issues with range anxiety, because for a long trip, you just hire the 150kWh car, but the small car is using a 30kWh battery.

Autonomous vehicles is where public transport is heading.  Of course autonomous technology needs to catch up, it's still in the nascent stage, but it's coming.  It's really going to endanger millions of jobs too, but that's another discussion.

[TimFox]

A major problem with any organized public transportation system is sometimes called "the last mile", or how I get from the Jefferson Park 'L' station (Chicago Transit Authority) to my house roughly a mile away.
Autonomous vehicles (on demand) could be a solution for that issue.

[themadhippy]

A major problem with any organized public transportation system is sometimes called "the last mile", or how I get from the Jefferson Park 'L' station (Chicago Transit Authority) to my house roughly a mile away

walk,wont even take 20 minutes, added bonus you can cancel the gym membership.

[tautech]

A major problem with any organized public transportation system is sometimes called "the last mile", or how I get from the Jefferson Park 'L' station (Chicago Transit Authority) to my house roughly a mile away

walk,wont even take 20 minutes, added bonus you can cancel the gym membership.

Another from some other reality where it never rains or snows. 

[themadhippy]

Another from some other reality where it never rains or snows

erm i'm in the uk and it certainly rains,however a decent set of waterproofs  tends to keep you dry

[Marco]

Autonomous vehicles (on demand) could be a solution for that issue.

By the time you have enough not to get oversubscription in rush hour, you might as well just let people have their own cars.

You could still make new cities where within city limits they have to be on autonomous mode.

[TimFox]

A major problem with any organized public transportation system is sometimes called "the last mile", or how I get from the Jefferson Park 'L' station (Chicago Transit Authority) to my house roughly a mile away

walk,wont even take 20 minutes, added bonus you can cancel the gym membership.

I'm an old man with arthritic knees.  Thanks for the advice, especially today with icy sidewalks.

[tautech]

A major problem with any organized public transportation system is sometimes called "the last mile", or how I get from the Jefferson Park 'L' station (Chicago Transit Authority) to my house roughly a mile away

walk,wont even take 20 minutes, added bonus you can cancel the gym membership.

I'm an old man with arthritic knees.  Thanks for the advice, especially today with icy sidewalks.

Idealists don’t give a shit due to the rose tinted glasses they wear.
They’d expect the pregnant housewife with a tribe of kiddies at foot to do that mile walk in all weathers too.
Have we not advanced in the last 100 years for the better and not need to return to the dark ages. 

[MadScientist]

People switch from cars to alternative transport if cars are expensive. Which is an unfortunate event, shouldn't really be the end goal of any administration, because it only means that they are creating a failed society.

In most developed European countries the goal is to reduce dependance on private car usage. New motorways are now considered bad planning and commuter rail is preferred.

Again: this has been tried to death in the NL already and failed missarably. Nowadays they are catching up on building new and more roads over here. On top of that people may receive a higher allowance for work related car travel. The NL government has given up chasing what is a pipe dream.

The problem is that public transport goes from one hub to another. I have worked at various companies that are located in large industrial areas that had no public transport connection at all. IOW: if your home is close to a train station and your work is close to a train station, public transport works. Otherwise it just doesn't. Making owning a car more expensive doesn't change the situation. It just makes working more expensive for many people. I've seen various good engineers leaving companies due to travel time and costs. A real loss for the company involved but completely understandable.

The fact that it tried and possibly failed in NL is more a specific failure of NL governance than a general statement that such public policy cannot work elsewhere. In other countries better progress towards a less car centric living is making progress and social change is occurring to support that with both planning changes altering the built environment and societal changes to people’s attitudes leading away from a “ car centric. “ solution

In my country offices are now built near public transport hubs. ( seee Google’s European HQ for example ) this is what attracts high quality employees not car parking spaces.

That’s not go say thd private car will disappear. But the point is the built environment is no longer being tailored to it.

[MadScientist]

A major problem with any organized public transportation system is sometimes called "the last mile", or how I get from the Jefferson Park 'L' station (Chicago Transit Authority) to my house roughly a mile away

walk,wont even take 20 minutes, added bonus you can cancel the gym membership.

I'm an old man with arthritic knees.  Thanks for the advice, especially today with icy sidewalks.

Idealists don’t give a shit due to the rose tinted glasses they wear.
They’d expect the pregnant housewife with a tribe of kiddies at foot to do that mile walk in all weathers too.
Have we not advanced in the last 100 years for the better and not need to return to the dark ages. 

No one is suggesting the  future has no cars in it. Possibly we will see a mix of solutions including car rental , increased taxi style solutions as well as continued car ownership plus better public transport solutions etc.

Hence th “pregnant housewife”  will have  a range of options even if  it’s s typical  BS edge case argument . Used by people who have no thought out counter argument and resort to picking edge cases out of thin air

Again no one is arguing all cars will disappear   what I’m a saying is the future  will not be as “ car centric “ as the recent past has been. People will increasing choose non car ownership or adopt other solutions maybe around shared or rental style solutions etc. what’s clear is the cost of ownership will rise quite dramatically and the hassle of urban car ownership will increase.

Driving your kids to school has proven societal disadvantages. Many schools run bus collections or encourage walk to school solutions etc.  I travelled to my schools in the 60s by bus my kids traveled to their schools by commuter rail

[MadScientist]

People switch from cars to alternative transport if cars are expensive. Which is an unfortunate event, shouldn't really be the end goal of any administration, because it only means that they are creating a failed society.

In most developed European countries the goal is to reduce dependance on private car usage. New motorways are now considered bad planning and commuter rail is preferred. Aggressive car reduction projects like conjestion   charging restricting car access and reducing car parking are being introduced. Couple this with increased taxes on fuel and annual car ownership and you can see the general trend in urban planning is decidedly anti car

So the voting public largely supporting “ green policies” reject your ridiculous asertion this is creating a “ failed society “

 everywhere you look you see cars on the back foot. Road engineering is disincentivising cars , parking bans , wholesale urban pedestrian areas , the return of road based light rail , restrictions on car access , reductions in allowances for cars and 20kph speed restrictions etc

All this points tons successful society not a failed one. The supremacy of the car is over , in my capital city historic streets were vandalised to accomadate more cars in tneb60s and seventies , this would be unthinkable nowadays. In fact now roads are smaller as cycle lanes , pedestrian areas and other road works have removed car road space dignificantly

These are not social failures they are successes where people quality of living is prioritised over polluting private transport

Town planner: someone who plans towns in order to make enough money not to have to live in one.

Ah.   Cynics the people that struggle to get out of bed each day

People who want to plan other people's lives build dystopias, not utopias.

Cynics need to get out more , interact with others and open their eyes and smell the coffee

[Someone]

People switch from cars to alternative transport if cars are expensive. Which is an unfortunate event, shouldn't really be the end goal of any administration, because it only means that they are creating a failed society.

In most developed European countries the goal is to reduce dependance on private car usage. New motorways are now considered bad planning and commuter rail is preferred.

Again: this has been tried to death in the NL already and failed missarably. Nowadays they are catching up on building new and more roads over here. On top of that people may receive a higher allowance for work related car travel. The NL government has given up chasing what is a pipe dream.

The problem is that public transport goes from one hub to another. I have worked at various companies that are located in large industrial areas that had no public transport connection at all. IOW: if your home is close to a train station and your work is close to a train station, public transport works. Otherwise it just doesn't. Making owning a car more expensive doesn't change the situation. It just makes working more expensive for many people. I've seen various good engineers leaving companies due to travel time and costs. A real loss for the company involved but completely understandable.

The fact that it tried and possibly failed in NL is more a specific failure of NL governance than a general statement that such public policy cannot work elsewhere.

That poster is a one sided propaganda machine, other people in The Netherlands see it very differently:
https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2021/05/19/rotterdam-takes-an-important-step-towards-becoming-a-cycle-friendly-city/
Ripping out roads in busy areas is something that is continuing, and continuing to find people against it!

[MadScientist]

This thread as is typical is now a circular set of arguments amongst some who cannot see alternatives    It has outlived its usefulness

[tggzzz]

Hence th “pregnant housewife”  will have  a range of options even if  it’s s typical  BS edge case argument . Used by people who have no thought out counter argument and resort to picking edge cases out of thin air

By that argument all people with disabilities are "edge cases", and their requirements can be ignored.

We can infer that you are able bodied and young, and probably have not been involved in ensuring an eldely relative can continue to live independently.

[tggzzz]

Cynics need to get out more , interact with others and open their eyes and smell the coffee

Given the implications of your comments for the elderly and disabled, you might consider doing that too.

[tom66]

By that argument all people with disabilities are "edge cases", and their requirements can be ignored.

We already have provision for disabled people.  Those on blue badges are exempt from paying the congestion charge and can park in many areas of central London, for instance, free of charge.  There's no reason a future system couldn't consider disability/accessibility too.  I know a 65 year old woman in south London who refuses to drive, she hates it, takes the bus and train every day using her walking stick.  Is it a bit of hard work - yes, of course - but just because you are old does not mean you are unable to use public transport.  She actually gets upset when people offer her a seat, funny character.

[eti]

Despite this forum having lots of members, it’s time to put these opinions into perspective:

# You are electronics people, ergo have a higher than average probability of being biased towards electric or electronic systems. Fact.

# You are one miniscule fraction of an already tiny, tiny fraction of a fraction of the populous of the countries planning these schemes. You are likely 0.00000000000000000000000001% of the population of your country, and even if a million of you got together and lobbied all day every day for EVs, that’s still a tiny fraction of your overall population that say they want it.

That doesn’t change the fact that logic, physics, economics and plain old fashioned day to day practicality en mass are not always able to be overcome by the words “Road map”, “eco” or “policy”.

This is an echo chamber. Never forget that. Also never forget that almost no one online will admit to wanting to always be “right”.  I’m in no way saying I’m right nor will be, but good old fashioned (very UN)common sense is a distant memory, and as much as you may have utopian fantasies A La “Buck Rogers”… as much as you, your govt and your EV fanatics want to force your childhood sci-fi fantasies to come to pass, nothing stops logic in the end. Logic is the overruling power of sanity.

The world is full of bullshitters and idealistic futurists who live in a fantasy world of their imaginations. It ain’t gonna happen. Watch and see - and no need to reply to “prove you wrong” - one who is secure in the absolute knowledge that the sun will rise and set, has no need to “prove it” to people - it’s a given. EVs, sadly for you, are very much NOT a given - as much as you desperately want them to be. They are exist in minority quantities, they’re toys, and that’s the end of it.

[eti]

[Miyuki]

Hence th “pregnant housewife”  will have  a range of options even if  it’s s typical  BS edge case argument . Used by people who have no thought out counter argument and resort to picking edge cases out of thin air

By that argument all people with disabilities are "edge cases", and their requirements can be ignored.

We can infer that you are able bodied and young, and probably have not been involved in ensuring an eldely relative can continue to live independently.

Just build a "special area" for disabled people and move them there. They will have all services and surely will live there happily ever after.
And won't sully bright future.
It was already tried many times at various places.

But yes, it can be solved by for example with taxi credit or a similar solution.  Just like they have now incentives for cars and free parking.