EV-based road transportation is not viable

[nctnico]

And you can easily have tax calculated from your traveled distance, because they have this data.

The problem is that this data does not tell where you have travelled and thus it can not be used to base road taxes on. Cars on hydrogen would solve this tax problem nicely because the tax can be calculated at the filling station.

It's a pretty fringe reason to use one fuel/energy type over another.

Of course the other argument is we could just collect the tax another way, like an annual levy on owning a car or just income tax (which might be the fairest way as those earning the most probably can most afford higher tax for private car use.)

The problem is that the NL government wants to replace taxes from fuel towards taxes on road use. Part of that is given by the use of BEVs which is hard to tax when people charge at home or from other non-taxes sources. So, it is not a fringe reason. It likely is going to end up with BEV owners paying more tax for owning the car though. In the NL there are already different tax tariffs depending on the kind of fuel a car is using.

[tom66]

The problem is that the NL government wants to replace taxes from fuel towards taxes on road use. Part of that is given by the use of BEVs which is hard to tax when people charge at home or from other non-taxes sources. So, it is not a fringe reason. It likely is going to end up with BEV owners paying more tax for owning the car though. In the NL there are already different tax tariffs depending on the kind of fuel a car is using.

I don't know about the specifics in NL but in the UK fuel duty is 3% of all tax receipts.  It's not nothing but it doesn't feel impossible to fill that hole with other things.  It could cost a lot more to implement road charging or some other way to tax EVs compared to just biting the bullet and adding say 1% to income tax.  You would need a much more compelling reason to support hydrogen vehicles IMO.

[nctnico]

In the NL 60% (or even more) of the fuel price is taxes. I'm quite sure the UK government is receiving way more taxes on fuel than 3%.

[tom66]

In the NL 60% (or even more) of the fuel price is taxes.

That's about the same for the UK, a fixed 53p/L fuel duty plus 20% VAT on the overall price, works out to about 55% of the total price at current ~£1.40/L pricing.  Not sure if the VAT is hypothecated from the fuel duty, so it might be closer to 3.5-4% that needs to be replaced if not.

[MadScientist]

As I opined I think road pricing is seen as the way forward. More progressive , targeted and capable of changing habits

[AVGresponding]

This would almost certainly contravene GDPR, and won't happen. The simplest way is to tax electricity at the point of use, and to charge more, the more is used, rather than discounting it for heavier users.

And solar users pay no tax?  No, road charging is the only way to make it fair, on the basis of replacing fuel tax.

If you've a solar rig big enough to charge an EV as well as power your house, then yes, why not? I suspect that would be very few people, in reality, certainly in Northern European countries.

[tom66]

Depends on how you use it, but a 4.5kW array on my house (Midlands/South-East England) is projected to have many days of surplus during the day that could be used for EV charging in the summer months.  Upwards of 10kWh could be added in addition to normal household loads.  Definitely not the case during winter, though.

[MadScientist]

I think until the grid is in peril from private PV we will not see taxes on PV

[nctnico]

As I opined I think road pricing is seen as the way forward. More progressive , targeted and capable of changing habits

Taxing is not going to work at all to change habits. Anyone thinking that is a complete fool. It has been tried to death in the NL and it didn't reduce the number of cars (quite the opposite) and only drove up inflation. People have to get from A to B to earn money. There should be less taxes on cars because cars enable people to make more money (spending less time travelling or not doing any work at all) and thus generate more revenue from income taxes and economic growth as a whole.

[SiliconWizard]

As I opined I think road pricing is seen as the way forward. More progressive , targeted and capable of changing habits

Taxing is not going to work at all to change habits. Anyone thinking that is a complete fool. It has been tried to death in the NL and it didn't reduce the number of cars (quite the opposite) and only drove up inflation. People have to get from A to B to earn money.

Yep.

But maybe not in one decade from now. People will just be ordered to stay at home, work and live their private life in a metaverse.

[MadScientist]

As I opined I think road pricing is seen as the way forward. More progressive , targeted and capable of changing habits

Taxing is not going to work at all to change habits. Anyone thinking that is a complete fool. It has been tried to death in the NL and it didn't reduce the number of cars (quite the opposite) and only drove up inflation. People have to get from A to B to earn money. There should be less taxes on cars because cars enable people to make more money (spending less time travelling or not doing any work at all) and thus generate more revenue from income taxes and economic growth as a whole.

That’s a nonsense comment. It’s well accepted that taxation policy does influence people’s actions. Ireland brought in a plastic bag tax within 6 months bag usage dropped 80 %.  Same with Bev incentives , smoking taxes etc etc. taxation is a major way governments make  social change

There’s no evidence private cars make people money. Employment makes people money , hence modern policy is to encourage less car usage in getting to and from work with for example tax free annual bus or rail tickets or even in Ireland a tax free “ bike to work “ scheme.

Again taxation policy directly influences people , domestic solar pv is a classic example as is the huge rise in BEV usage

Modern urban planners want a far less “ car centric “ future hence the rise in pedestrian areas , conjestion areas, one way systems , restrictions on parking spaces in new apartments etc etc and more investments in metros and light rail etc.  there will be increasing disincentives to use a car in an urban area. That’s for sure.

BEV cars play a part in decarbonising private transport. Government policy and  planing policy can act to disincentivise private car usage where practical.

The private car is past its zenith , the future will not be based around it.

( as an example I know two shopping centres and an big apartment complex refused planning because they’d car  parking area were too numerous. Both shops had to reduce their spaces by 30% and put in place bus access facilities etc. a recent change in planning allows apartment complexs within 1km of a rail station to forgo having ANY car parking in the complex !! )

[nctnico]

The private car is past its zenith , the future will not be based around it.

Another fool's idea. The reality is that without a car you are just stuck at one place with the same people all around you. You could call living in a transportless ghetto 'urban cocooning'. But that is just a trend that will reverse quickly when young people (re) discover a car gives you a lot of freedom of movement. In the NL it is expected that the number of cars will keep increasing during the next decade.

[MadScientist]

As I opined I think road pricing is seen as the way forward. More progressive , targeted and capable of changing habits

Taxing is not going to work at all to change habits. Anyone thinking that is a complete fool. It has been tried to death in the NL and it didn't reduce the number of cars (quite the opposite) and only drove up inflation. People have to get from A to B to earn money.

But maybe not in one decade from now. People will just be ordered to stay at home, work and live their private life in a metaverse.

They won’t need to be ordered , covid showed people liked not having to go into the office !!
Yep.

[RJSV]

I see a lot of volume, of discussion; Good there, but that does indicate much lack, of agreement, on action(s) going forward.
   Listen to what some leaders have stated;
   Pres. Obama:.   
    "...We at least know, that with wholesale switch, to fully electric transportation systems, that electricity prices will, necessarily skyrocket."

Now; somebody call him a liar, then ?

[RJSV]

Err, sorry, I meant to say, in the switch-over to green energy source, prices will skyrocket...but similar dynamic.

[MadScientist]

The private car is past its zenith , the future will not be based around it.

Another fool's idea. The reality is that without a car you are just stuck at one place with the same people all around you. You could call living in a transportless ghetto 'urban cocooning'. But that is just a trend that will reverse quickly when young people (re) discover a car gives you a lot of freedom of movement. In the NL it is expected that the number of cars will keep increasing during the next decade.

Interesting I have two adult kids in well paid jobs living on major European centres. Neither they nor they’re friends own cars. They rent as needed but have no desire to own one

This trend is evident in all major urban centres anongst that demographic

Planners are actively removing cats from urban areas , conjrdtion chsrgijg , removing or restricting car parking , pedestrianisation, investments in light and heavy rail etc.

The car is now seen as an unfortunate evil in large urban areas and will increasingly be restricted and taxed.

[nctnico]

I see a lot of volume, of discussion; Good there, but that does indicate much lack, of agreement, on action(s) going forward.
   Listen to what some leaders have stated;
   Pres. Obama:.   
    "...We at least know, that with wholesale switch, to fully electric transportation systems, that electricity prices will, necessarily skyrocket."

In a previous discussion I already wrote that electricity is likely to become a scarse commodity so it is not a good idea at all to become fully dependant on electricity for all energy supply. Unfortunately, for too many electricity is something that comes out of a socket in the wall magically. Yesterday there was an article in the newspaper saying 2 out of 3 people in the NL are utterly clueless about their energy use and costs. They will be in for a nasty surprise especially since gas and electricity prices have tripled or even quadrupled.

[MadScientist]

Err, sorry, I meant to say, in the switch-over to green energy source, prices will skyrocket...but similar dynamic.

Actually in markets reaching high levels of renewable energy generation , spot grid pricing is falling and is causing issues for regulators as they are forced to stop renewable generation at peak times to maintain the economics of base load generators or otherwise such base load generators would in effect fail economically.

[nctnico]

The private car is past its zenith , the future will not be based around it.

Another fool's idea. The reality is that without a car you are just stuck at one place with the same people all around you. You could call living in a transportless ghetto 'urban cocooning'. But that is just a trend that will reverse quickly when young people (re) discover a car gives you a lot of freedom of movement. In the NL it is expected that the number of cars will keep increasing during the next decade.

Interesting I have two adult kids in well paid jobs living on major European centres. Neither they nor they’re friends own cars. They rent as needed but have no desire to own one

That is just anecdotal evidence. The youngsters my kids hang out with bought a car as soon as they had a driver's license and could afford a car. Give it a few years, a few salary increases and your kids plus all their friends will have a car. I've seen that happen often enough when working with youngers people at customers. First they go 'I don't need a car, will rent one', but when they start doing the math and see how much freedom they gain from owning a car, they will buy one. Usually this happens when they move to a bigger home as well.

[MadScientist]

I see a lot of volume, of discussion; Good there, but that does indicate much lack, of agreement, on action(s) going forward.
   Listen to what some leaders have stated;
   Pres. Obama:.   
    "...We at least know, that with wholesale switch, to fully electric transportation systems, that electricity prices will, necessarily skyrocket."

In a previous discussion I already wrote that electricity is likely to become a scarse commodity so it is not a good idea at all to become fully dependant on electricity for all energy supply. Unfortunately, for too many electricity is something that comes out of a socket in the wall magically. Yesterday there was an article in the newspaper saying 2 out of 3 people in the NL are utterly clueless about their energy use and costs. They will be in for a nasty surprise especially since gas and electricity prices have tripled or even quadrupled.

There us no credible evidence that “ electricity will become scarce “. There is evidence of the opposite in many countries whete large capacity renewables are coming on stream. What is also evident is that some countries have woefully underinvested in their grid and Grren energy’s generation and will suffer temporary supply issues until they’ve sort things out

Over the expectedly Bev conversion time scales  there’s plenty of time to fix grid issues.

[MadScientist]

The private car is past its zenith , the future will not be based around it.

Another fool's idea. The reality is that without a car you are just stuck at one place with the same people all around you. You could call living in a transportless ghetto 'urban cocooning'. But that is just a trend that will reverse quickly when young people (re) discover a car gives you a lot of freedom of movement. In the NL it is expected that the number of cars will keep increasing during the next decade.

Interesting I have two adult kids in well paid jobs living on major European centres. Neither they nor they’re friends own cars. They rent as needed but have no desire to own one

That is just anecdotal evidence. The youngsters my kids hang out with bought a car as soon as they had a driver's license and could afford a car.

It well maybe anecdotal but if you ask motor sales tracking orgs these days you’ll see a very different demographic buying cars nowadays then when i was 20.
The age of car centric planning and thinking is over.

[nctnico]

I see a lot of volume, of discussion; Good there, but that does indicate much lack, of agreement, on action(s) going forward.
   Listen to what some leaders have stated;
   Pres. Obama:.   
    "...We at least know, that with wholesale switch, to fully electric transportation systems, that electricity prices will, necessarily skyrocket."

In a previous discussion I already wrote that electricity is likely to become a scarse commodity so it is not a good idea at all to become fully dependant on electricity for all energy supply. Unfortunately, for too many electricity is something that comes out of a socket in the wall magically. Yesterday there was an article in the newspaper saying 2 out of 3 people in the NL are utterly clueless about their energy use and costs. They will be in for a nasty surprise especially since gas and electricity prices have tripled or even quadrupled.

There us no credible evidence that “ electricity will become scarce “.

What is there not to understand about 'prices have quadrupled'? Cost efficient storage is a problem that has not been solved at all; that is just getting started with pilot projects.

[SiliconWizard]

Don't waste your time with people that can't even see reality.

[MadScientist]

I see a lot of volume, of discussion; Good there, but that does indicate much lack, of agreement, on action(s) going forward.
   Listen to what some leaders have stated;
   Pres. Obama:.   
    "...We at least know, that with wholesale switch, to fully electric transportation systems, that electricity prices will, necessarily skyrocket."

In a previous discussion I already wrote that electricity is likely to become a scarse commodity so it is not a good idea at all to become fully dependant on electricity for all energy supply. Unfortunately, for too many electricity is something that comes out of a socket in the wall magically. Yesterday there was an article in the newspaper saying 2 out of 3 people in the NL are utterly clueless about their energy use and costs. They will be in for a nasty surprise especially since gas and electricity prices have tripled or even quadrupled.

There is no credible evidence that “ electricity will become scarce “.

What is there not to understand about 'prices have quadrupled'? Cost efficient storage is a problem that has not been solved at all; that is just getting started with pilot projects.

Energy price rises have happened due to the Ukrainian situation there is a log of evidence many suppliers have been profiteering and chickens will come home to roost with countries limiting prices rises , France has already done so.

Hence as tbd Ukrainian situation is resolved and calm is restored.  Pricing will stabilise


In fact I was talking to a grid regulator ( he’s a friend ) avd he said  that tbd Ukrainian situation has spurred massive interest in domestic solar and insulation schemes and that within 10 years there would be too  much generation capacity and a crisis as a result.

[MadScientist]

Don't waste your time with people that can't even see reality.

I know it’s very hard putting across arguments to people that haven’t smelled the coffee beans and seen what’s happening around them or are stick in some 60s wonderland.