EV-based road transportation is not viable

[Someone]

This would almost certainly contravene GDPR, and won't happen. The simplest way is to tax electricity at the point of use, and to charge more, the more is used, rather than discounting it for heavier users.

And solar users pay no tax?  No, road charging is the only way to make it fair, on the basis of replacing fuel tax.

Yep. In the NL there are also plans to tax per distance travelled. But the problem is that the NL is a small country and there is a significant number of people that drive significant distances outside the country.

and that is somehow completely different from people buying fuel (with its high taxes to offset the externalities such as road costs its use creates) in one jurisdiction but driving in another?

Per km road use fees already exist to solve this funding "problem" for EVs:
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/registration/registration-fees/zlev-road-user-charge
the 2.6c/km rate puts EVs at equivalent taxation to a fossil burner with 5.9l/100km fuel consumption (perhaps a little higher than the current EU new car average)

[urx]

Alternately……
Buy an EV if you really want one and it works for you
Or
Dont buy one if you cant afford it or it doesnt work for you or if you just prefer the roar of a v8 to a whirr.

Ill be letting the fanbois spaff all their cash on ironing out the wrinkles in EV construction use and early life failures. Once the infrastructure is largely in place and the issues has been ironed out…then ill look at them.
8-)

[tom66]

I'd have no problem paying 2.6c/km road tax - though it would just about double my 'electric' bill for my vehicle  - it still retains a very low cost per mile. 

[tggzzz]

Until charging gets taxed. Its not a question of "if" but "when". As for viability, well a 10 year old car needing a new battery that costs multiples of the cars current value says a lot of its non-existent viability.

Very difficult to imagine how you could tax charging, given you can charge from an ordinary wall outlet.  Existing public charging could be taxed (and is, in the UK) but not easy to tax private charging.

If there is going to be some tax, then I'd imagine road charging (tolls to enter city centres, or a per mile for certain roads.)  Whole road tolling seems unlikely and impractical unless you fit trackers to each car which is a privacy nightmare, or cover the countryside in CCTV, which is extremely expensive.

Oh you can just charge those rich folks in the city, who don't have their own driveway. I think most of us could get behind that.
Congestion charge, and public charger charge, parking charge, bridge charge, insurance, charging insurance, tax on insurance, insurance on tax on insurance, and interest rate on charging network ppp loan. But only in the big smoke, plus the street where Boris Johnson lives.

Many folks with cars in cities are poor.

Recently introduced congestion charges near me are crippling some of them, e.g. home helps for the elderly and sick. They are paid almost minimum wage and have to supply their own vehicles. Obviously public transport isn't an option.

And then there are the disabled with specially adapted vehicles. Tough shit for them.

In London they are offering  <=£2000 trade in when cheap secondhand EVs are £20000. Notice the different number of zeros. According to a source I normally distrust, 65% of those hit say they can't afford a new vehicle.

Currently BoJo is looking at schools in his old constituency of Henley.

[nctnico]

This would almost certainly contravene GDPR, and won't happen. The simplest way is to tax electricity at the point of use, and to charge more, the more is used, rather than discounting it for heavier users.

And solar users pay no tax?  No, road charging is the only way to make it fair, on the basis of replacing fuel tax.

Yep. In the NL there are also plans to tax per distance travelled. But the problem is that the NL is a small country and there is a significant number of people that drive significant distances outside the country.

and that is somehow completely different from people buying fuel (with its high taxes to offset the externalities such as road costs its use creates) in one jurisdiction but driving in another?

Ofcourse that is different. You'd be paying taxes twice! On top of that there are several countries in Europe where you have to pay to use the highways (toll roads).

[Someone]

This would almost certainly contravene GDPR, and won't happen. The simplest way is to tax electricity at the point of use, and to charge more, the more is used, rather than discounting it for heavier users.

And solar users pay no tax?  No, road charging is the only way to make it fair, on the basis of replacing fuel tax.

Yep. In the NL there are also plans to tax per distance travelled. But the problem is that the NL is a small country and there is a significant number of people that drive significant distances outside the country.

and that is somehow completely different from people buying fuel (with its high taxes to offset the externalities such as road costs its use creates) in one jurisdiction but driving in another?

Of course that is different. You'd be paying taxes twice! On top of that there are several countries in Europe where you have to pay to use the highways (toll roads).

Currently you fill up with petrol in [country A] which has similar taxation and pricing to [country B], beyond some heavy vehicles scheduling their fills it averages out. Where is the double taxation? Why is this somehow unfair to people driving into other jurisdictions?

future situation....

Each country charges you per km use either annually with registration/warrant/insurance, or by some automated toll like realtime magic, but they all use the same method. Where is the double taxation? Why is this somehow unfair to people driving into other jurisdictions?

Right now that division in Australia is by what fuel your vehicle uses, so no double taxation, and no issues with driving into other jurisdictions. You are shouting about some boogeyman situation that no-one is suggesting. But do continue posting up inflammatory and misleading crap, since you cannot find any practical/real problems?

[Someone]

I'd have no problem paying 2.6c/km road tax - though it would just about double my 'electric' bill for my vehicle  - it still retains a very low cost per mile.

Thats it, even when charged an almost identical fee for road use as the fossil burners the world doesn't end and EVs aren't priced out of the market. Talking to owners of EVs they say 2 things: its not that much money (in the total ownership), and they drive so few km it doesn't really add that much.

EVs are roughly cost parity in Australia with ICE or hybrids (like for like, mid size sedans). As I've mentioned before the Australian car market, with almost no government intervention at this point, really does find equilibrium.

[Miyuki]

All the taxes mostly exist, just will be adjusted
You have:
annual fixed tax per vehicle
tolls for highways
fee to entering city (most big cities have or soon will have this in Europe)
parking fees (as only "free" parking is on own land now)
and annual mileage is recorded by mandatory emision/safety checks, also it is recorded with every change of the owner (most European countries do this)

ICE have now tax in the fuel, but so is tax in electricity (just lower, but this can be and will be adjusted)
And you can easily have tax calculated from your traveled distance, because they have this data.

[themadhippy]

If they tax ev's like ice in the uk it will need to be a double tax  to cover both the lost fuel duty and the vat on the fuel duty

[tom66]

If they tax ev's like ice in the uk it will need to be a double tax  to cover both the lost fuel duty and the vat on the fuel duty

EV charging already has 20% VAT applied if in public, and 5% at home.

[MadScientist]

If they tax ev's like ice in the uk it will need to be a double tax  to cover both the lost fuel duty and the vat on the fuel duty

It’s very unlikely that charging BEVs will be taxed as regulating that’s tax is technically difficult. Attempts to capture that data from the car would fall foul of EU freedom charter at present.

Certainly the working group I was on found road pricing to be preferable this would be made up of a tag based toll system ( already in existence for motorways ) plus a fixed annual charge based on mileage , this would then replace the taxes on fuel ( duty is high plus vat ) of course thd gov is already getting vat on the electricity anyway except for home  generated power

Tbd overall feeling fron the dept of finance guys on the group that replacing the fuel duties would not be insurmountable and road pricing was a fairer principle then fuel taxes anyway.  The view was road pricing was much more likely to influence user behaviour then the current fuel tax regime anyway.

Thd overall view was that consistent with data protection. GPS based road pricing was both fairer and better for social and road planning objectives and more likely to influence driver behaviour then the current fuel orientated tax system.

[Monkeh]

If they tax ev's like ice in the uk it will need to be a double tax  to cover both the lost fuel duty and the vat on the fuel duty

It’s very unlikely that charging BEVs will be taxed as regulating that’s tax is technically difficult. Attempts to capture that data from the car would fall foul of EU freedom charter at present.

Mileage is recorded at every annual inspection.

[nctnico]

And you can easily have tax calculated from your traveled distance, because they have this data.

The problem is that this data does not tell where you have travelled and thus it can not be used to base road taxes on. Cars on hydrogen would solve this tax problem nicely because the tax can be calculated at the filling station.

[tom66]

And you can easily have tax calculated from your traveled distance, because they have this data.

The problem is that this data does not tell where you have travelled and thus it can not be used to base road taxes on. Cars on hydrogen would solve this tax problem nicely because the tax can be calculated at the filling station.

It's a pretty fringe reason to use one fuel/energy type over another.

Of course the other argument is we could just collect the tax another way, like an annual levy on owning a car or just income tax (which might be the fairest way as those earning the most probably can most afford higher tax for private car use.)

[MadScientist]

If they tax ev's like ice in the uk it will need to be a double tax  to cover both the lost fuel duty and the vat on the fuel duty

It’s very unlikely that charging BEVs will be taxed as regulating that’s tax is technically difficult. Attempts to capture that data from the car would fall foul of EU freedom charter at present.

Mileage is recorded at every annual inspection.

Well every 4 years here on under 10 year old  and  then 2 years

The view from the finance people was that small progressive tax systems are better as they lead to changes in behaviour. What road and urban planners wanted was to have the road pricing system change user behaviour with for example routes with good public transport being dearer then say a rural route with no public transport etc

The technical and privacy issues were acknowledged but they felt it was surmountable

[MadScientist]

And you can easily have tax calculated from your traveled distance, because they have this data.

The problem is that this data does not tell where you have travelled and thus it can not be used to base road taxes on. Cars on hydrogen would solve this tax problem nicely because the tax can be calculated at the filling station.

It's a pretty fringe reason to use one fuel/energy type over another.

Of course the other argument is we could just collect the tax another way, like an annual levy on owning a car or just income tax (which might be the fairest way as those earning the most probably can most afford higher tax for private car use.)

In the working group I was in the tax and finance dept had several clear reasons

1. Was to make legacy ice expensive so as to convince people to change as soon as they could afford
2. To change driver behaviour not just extract money
3. To allow taxes to be progressive , ie excessive mileage results in higher tax. Their stats showed working class workers tended to favour public transport and or car sharing and pooling etc whereas higher earners often undertook frivolous journeys that could be also done by public transport.

Hehce the  primary perspective was to change user behaviour in favour of less overall unnecessary travel  and to encourage carbon free ( or low carbon) methods

The revenue raised from ice fuel sales while significant was not seen as that significant in the overall tax regime and replacing it was not seen as that big a task

[themadhippy]

Attempts to capture that data from the car would fall foul of EU freedom charter at present.

As were no longer in the EU we've no need to bother about that

[MadScientist]

Attempts to capture that data from the car would fall foul of EU freedom charter at present.

As were no longer in the EU we've no need to bother about that

Indeed. No doubt your country will now ignore any personal freedoms as it has a good historical record of trampling over most !!

The view of one eu data protection unit was that user “ opt in” gos based road pricing would be legal whereas widespread imposition would not be possible , hence consideration was given to incentivising the opt in over the alternative

[Miyuki]

Attempts to capture that data from the car would fall foul of EU freedom charter at present.

As were no longer in the EU we've no need to bother about that

Indeed. No doubt your country will now ignore any personal freedoms as it has a good historical record of trampling over most !!

The view of one eu data protection unit was that user “ opt in” gos based road pricing would be legal whereas widespread imposition would not be possible , hence consideration was given to incentivising the opt in over the alternative

You can "voluntarily" opt-in or pay tax like driving 100k km annually 

[themadhippy]

No doubt your country will now ignore any personal freedoms as it has a good historical record of trampling over most !

hey,at least were good at something,

[MadScientist]

Attempts to capture that data from the car would fall foul of EU freedom charter at present.

As were no longer in the EU we've no need to bother about that

Indeed. No doubt your country will now ignore any personal freedoms as it has a good historical record of trampling over most !!

The view of one eu data protection unit was that user “ opt in” gos based road pricing would be legal whereas widespread imposition would not be possible , hence consideration was given to incentivising the opt in over the alternative

You can "voluntarily" opt-in or pay tax like driving 100k km annually 

Yes some aspect of a fixed fee or range of fres based on your address or an opt in system. Equally many road planners there felt that for various reasons many new roads would have number plate recognition as standard for speeding etc and this system could easily be expanded to do general road pricing   The overall view was replacing ice fuel taxes was not insurmountable at all.

The planners felt “ road pricing “ was more in line with the “ polluter pays “ principle

[MadScientist]

If I were you guys I would start debating the failure modes of old BEVs with lots of miles on them cause we may be seeing a lot of them around.

What failure modes. We have BEVs since 2010 and we’re not seeing “ failure nodes”  I have a 6 year old leaf with 250,000km still going strong and residuals are better then equivalent ice.

[tom66]

The biggest risk is individual cells failing.

On vehicles like the Leaf this is easy enough to fix, the same applies to older Model S and most newer EVs.  Newer Tesla's seem to use batteries that are glued together and are a lot more difficult to service.

Some older EVs have shorter battery lifespans than desirable, e.g. older Leaf's.  Those are ones to avoid, though still ok for local journeys, road tripping in a degraded battery 24kWh Leaf would not be fun.

The battery pack on my PHEV is holding up well and it gets cycled brutally, the thing that worries me is more the gearbox, that judders now and then, which is a common issue on DSGs as the clutches recalibrate.  You don't have automatic gearboxes on pure EVs.  There's also the worry of the turbo dying.  Strangely enough EV's don't have those either.

[MadScientist]

The biggest risk is individual cells failing.

On vehicles like the Leaf this is easy enough to fix, the same applies to older Model S and most newer EVs.  Newer Tesla's seem to use batteries that are glued together and are a lot more difficult to service.

Some older EVs have shorter battery lifespans than desirable, e.g. older Leaf's.  Those are ones to avoid, though still ok for local journeys, road tripping in a degraded battery 24kWh Leaf would not be fun.

The battery pack on my PHEV is holding up well and it gets cycled brutally, the thing that worries me is more the gearbox, that judders now and then, which is a common issue on DSGs as the clutches recalibrate.  You don't have automatic gearboxes on pure EVs.  There's also the worry of the turbo dying.  Strangely enough EV's don't have those either.

As I said PHEVS are transitory and the benefits are largely illusional. I don’t see the “ breed” surviving as taxes on ice rise and PHEVS are much more expensive to make than BEVS. Where I live BEVs outsell phevs 2:1 

So long term phev is not a factor anyway

BEVs have now  longer battery life then most ICE engines or nearly so
The original leaf issues were largely associated with high ambient use whereas those leafs in temperate climate have performed well. I know several people with 6-8 year old leafs

Furthermore the replacement battery industry will arrive in time once Bev populations are high enough just like you can buy replacement ice engines today for leafs for example it’s already possible to do battery replacement

As for Tesla’s I don’t see them as the dominant Bev company over the long term tbd big car companies will dominate the lower end of the market.  Tesla is a premium brand but there’s lots of market space for lower cost models.

[tom66]

I think Tesla missed the ball by focusing too much on NA, they had a really good foothold on the EV market in Europe but will lose that to VW/Stellantis/Nissan.  They should have released a Golf-like Model 3 and the Model Y a bit sooner.  However the one advantage they do have is massive battery manufacturing capacity which means other manufacturers will be playing catch up for some time.  Remains to be seen how long that continues.

PHEVs are still important vehicles over the next 10yrs but yes arguably we are already approaching the point where BEVs are cheaper than PHEVs - engines, exhaust systems and multi speed gearboxes aren't free.