EV-based road transportation is not viable

[RJSV]

Reading Madscientist's post, (a few back), I follow the thinking, that 'too much' benefit from bev ownership can have negative persistent effects on such resources like asphalt, farm land conversion, and the many many smaller repair businesses, etc that are in the domestic supply situation.
   I donated my fairly efficient small hatchback car, in 2009, (Pres Obama started that year).  Watching the BART transit system growing, gives more confidence in such personal transition, maintaining most city access (San Francisco).  Glad to be rid, plus having an ADD personality didn't contribute to safety very well (attention deficit).
   Bus lines, on the other hand, have suffered near-mortilly these last 20 years, many cuts and consolidations.  That means, walking the 1.5 miles to get on train.  So my cup is half filled, I figure.
   Life-style is important, although folks sometimes see that as snobbery.  But even more than here, the L.A. coastal areas have a special 'California Charm', in places like Santa Monica, although that whole car ownership dynamic is a bit of a scam.

[tszaboo]

Towing capacity?  The 2022 Ford F150 EV pickup has a tow rating of 7700 pounds.

The 2024 Chevy Silverado EV pickup will come in 3 flavors from 8000 pounds to 20,000 pounds:

Cool, so can they be used for plowing fields?

[rstofer]

Towing capacity?  The 2022 Ford F150 EV pickup has a tow rating of 7700 pounds.

The 2024 Chevy Silverado EV pickup will come in 3 flavors from 8000 pounds to 20,000 pounds:

Cool, so can they be used for plowing fields?

I suspect you would have to use a different style of tires but, sure, why not?  I suspect there are a large number of farmers looking at this.

In California, leaf blowers and lawn mowers have to be battery powered by 2024.  That's going to be a lot of small battery charging.  I haven't seen a battery powered riding lawn mower.  I wonder what my yard-work contractor is going to do...  A Chevy Bolt won't fit through the gate!

https://mashable.com/article/electric-leaf-blower-california-ban

[Marco]

A sales ban, not an use ban. HOA bans likely have far more impact than this, those are actual use bans for both the home owners and the contractors.

There's ride on mowers with 20 kWh range battery packs, where there's a will and a wallet there's a way. Though for landscapers I think it would make more sense to have a battery pack system sized for backpacks, which can also slide into the mower. More universally useful.

[RJSV]

(quote):.    "...FREE charging for EVs...or nearly FREE $".
   Ah shucks, we ain't there, yet.  Sounds like a foo, (err, better mind my manners...; Sounds pretty darn naive.

Remember, Nuclear power, in 1970s was going that 'nearly, practically free$'.  Do we have to wait, on you to deliver on that, and meanwhile conduct (these changes) accordingly (trust the flippantly irresponsible remarks, about free$, or practically so)?

   Plus, while reading and pondering, just realized:
There's no room, here, for any comparisons with public transit system's COST.  Please, when answers come, give equivalents in...dollars or euros, whatever.  But please no 'FREE' or nearly so, parameters, on the money.
That's like, high School level economics, and I'm at about that level myself.
Disappointed.

[vad]

In California, leaf blowers and lawn mowers have to be battery powered by 2024.

Good luck with that. I thrown away my EGO battery powered electric mower two years ago. It is underpowered garbage with ridiculously low runtime that got even lower after several year of use.

[tautech]

I suspect there are a large number of farmers looking at this.

Why on earth would they ?
Until a battery charge can last all day and a recharge take only as long as pumping a tank of fuel farmers will resist inefficiencies or food costs will increase.
Time costs money even for the private vehicle user.

[NiHaoMike]

In California, leaf blowers and lawn mowers have to be battery powered by 2024.

Wouldn't corded electric (or combo corded/cordless) still be allowed? It would be very silly to ban that.

[TimFox]

In California, leaf blowers and lawn mowers have to be battery powered by 2024.

Good luck with that. I thrown away my EGO battery powered electric mower two years ago. It is underpowered garbage with ridiculously low runtime that got even lower after several year of use.

Ah yes. the conning product where it doesn't have enough power to do the job but the low price suckers in millions of people each year.

I hate having gasoline stored in my garage, so I have always used electric mowers.  Since cords are a nuisance, I bought a nice Toro^TM battery-powered unit (60 V battery) that has plenty of capacity for my 10 m by 46 m city lot.

[MadScientist]

I suspect there are a large number of farmers looking at this.

Why on earth would they ?
Until a battery charge can last all day and a recharge take only as long as pumping a tank of fuel farmers will resist inefficiencies or food costs will increase.
Time costs money even for the private vehicle user.

The view from John Deere research is that BEV farm tractors is eminently feasible as electric drive is actually better suited to farm tractors then diesel , allowing signifcantvda bugs in things like gearbox’s as the flat torque of the engine suits farm applications better then diesel and the tractor chassis can carry a big batttey if required. Many tractors spend a lot of time idle on farms. Clearly a big contractors ms home is a different kettle of fish but the view seems to be that single farm orientated tractors are eminently suited to BEV operation ( in time )

Time doesn’t cost money for many people. A housewive or house husband shipping isn’t time sensitive etc and in fact BEVs can be more “ available “ than ice cars if opportunity charging is availed of.

Really my experience is non BEV owners “ Invent” problems that don’t actually appear in real life with ownership of a BEV.

we’ve done some very long BEV journeys , yes planning is needed and some of our early ones were very problematic until we understood thd issues with public fast charging etc. but our later journeys were very straightforward and these days with the huge expansion of fast chargers it’s got very straightforward

[MadScientist]

I suspect there are a large number of farmers looking at this.

Why on earth would they ?
Until a battery charge can last all day and a recharge take only as long as pumping a tank of fuel farmers will resist inefficiencies or food costs will increase.
Time costs money even for the private vehicle user.

m
The general  view is that taxation changes and incentives will encourage farmers  to switch

[NiHaoMike]

Many tractors spend a lot of time idle on farms.

Wouldn't that make it more difficult for the reduced cost of operation to ever pay for itself? If the goal is to eliminate oil use, biofuel would probably be the better option. Could have it as a hybrid so the torque advantage of electric drive is still available.

[MadScientist]

The evidence in Ireland from users surveys is BEV owners significantly increased their annual car mileage as running costs were low. In fact this left the train or bus out of the equation and used the Bev. To such an extent that the capital city authorities would not provide parking concessions to BEVs that other cities provided ( most city public parking is free to BEVs )

Hence the evidence is BEV owners eschew public transport in favour of the car. In Ireland public transport is not great and is seen as “ low rent “ with the exception of light rail solutions

In fact it’s become a concern that overly aiding conversions to BEV is wrong and will result in higher car usage not less. The latest gov strategy is to decline Bev subsidies to make people seriously consider non car options which many young professionals now opting for non car ownership

It should be noted that in Ireland it’s one of the highest annual private car mileage per person nearly 1.5 the European average and higher than the USA average. It’s an extremely car centric country.

I would disagree that people want BEVs to deliver an indentical  experience. Evidence is that changing perspectives , covid , concern over pollution is changing peoples attitudes and younger people see cars on a different way. On the spot car hire  ( often BEV) etc has become very popular amongst urban apartment dwellers who fell the huge cost of owning a private car isvt justified.

Interesting.
I suppose the surveys really considered the drivers' mileage, so that it doesn't count mileage that would be deducted from an ICEV in the same home.
I could understand it as, whether legitimate or not, drivers can have the impression that taking the EV has few environnement effects, as well as the novelty and pleasure to drive an EV (compared to public transports, walking or cycling).
I've never seen free parking for EVs, though. And I don't think that would be a good idea.

The main feedback was a combination of lower cost per mile and incentives ( at the time ) of free public parking etc was having the effect of moving Bev owners away from public urban transport to instead using their Bev car , this was seen as contrary to public planning where the goal is to disincentivise centre city car travel .

In later years Bev incentives were tailored to disincentivise centre  city car usage , ie the free public parking ended and plans to allow BEVs to access bus lanes were scrapped.

So nowadays Bev centre city usage has returned to a similar profile to ICE users with the major exception that apartment dwellers are much likely to consider Bev ownership if they decide in a car at all. That’s a major attitude change where until recently car ownership was not high on their desire.

[MadScientist]

Many tractors spend a lot of time idle on farms.

Wouldn't that make it more difficult for the reduced cost of operation to ever pay for itself? If the goal is to eliminate oil use, biofuel would probably be the better option. Could have it as a hybrid so the torque advantage of electric drive is still available.

Hybrid produces a very expensive vehicle which still attracts ice taxation it’s not seen as any sort of long term  solution it’s a bad compromise

The  view is Bev tractors will be cost effective both to purchase due to tax incentives and to run due to increasing carbon taxes on diesel. 

Hence the view is once suitable Bev tractors are available the switch over will be both incentivised and popular especially amongst small to medium non contractor farmers.

Big contractor machines subject to high workloads will take longer to become available as BEVs.

[rstofer]

In California, leaf blowers and lawn mowers have to be battery powered by 2024.

Wouldn't corded electric (or combo corded/cordless) still be allowed? It would be very silly to ban that.

Dangling a 200+ foot cable (and stowing it) will get old in a hurry.  Around here, many lots are multiple acres and there doesn't tend to be a lot of power outlets in the back yard.  Then there is the voltage drop...

Battery is workable but for a contractor servicing a dozen clients per day, 5 days per week, there will be a lot of batteries and chargers.

Leave it to private enterprise to solve the problems.  Money (revenue) can fix everything.

[coppice]

You just don't expect to see a trailer ball on a Rolls Royce.

Really? How else are they going to pull the horse box?

[coppice]

In California, leaf blowers and lawn mowers have to be battery powered by 2024.

https://mashable.com/article/electric-leaf-blower-california-ban

The article talks about noise and pollution. Which is driving the issue in California? I do like the idea of quiet gardening tools. ICE ones can really spoil a peaceful day.

[tom66]

The article talks about noise and pollution. Which is driving the issue in California? I do like the idea of quiet gardening tools. ICE ones can really spoil a peaceful day.

While we're talking about loud ICEs, I'd love to see noise regs on scooters and motorcycles.  I know that's a contentious one, as there's this argument from the motorcycling community that a loud bike is a safer one, but the noise these vehicles can make is immense, you can hear them several streets over.

[rstofer]

In California, leaf blowers and lawn mowers have to be battery powered by 2024.

https://mashable.com/article/electric-leaf-blower-california-ban

The article talks about noise and pollution. Which is driving the issue in California? I do like the idea of quiet gardening tools. ICE ones can really spoil a peaceful day.

Somewhere on the Internet there is an article equating a yard blow emits as much pollution as a trip from San Diego to Denver (about 1100 miles).  Papers by the California Air Resources Board seem to be the driving force for lawmakers.

Here's one of the articles but not the one I am thinking of.  It does, however, equate blowing leaves with 1100 miles of travel.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38004981/california-ban-gas-powered-lawn-equipment/

Google shows the distance as 1079.3 miles so the quote seems credible on this point.

ETA:

Pollution is the issue as cities and HOAs have no ability to regulate pollution.  Noise is a local problem.  We don't have an HOA around here and nobody wants one.  One day a week the leaf blowers intrude (including my guy) and double pane windows help a lot.  Nobody cares about the noise!

[Marco]

Leave it to private enterprise to solve the problems.

They can solve it, but there has to be monetary incentive. I suspect American HOAs are the greatest force in the world at the moment for electrifying landscaping.

[tggzzz]

Article makes many sensible points...
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2659316104

[rstofer]

The article talks about noise and pollution. Which is driving the issue in California? I do like the idea of quiet gardening tools. ICE ones can really spoil a peaceful day.

While we're talking about loud ICEs, I'd love to see noise regs on scooters and motorcycles.  I know that's a contentious one, as there's this argument from the motorcycling community that a loud bike is a safer one, but the noise these vehicles can make is immense, you can hear them several streets over.

In California, motorcycles built after 1985 are limited to 80 dB by law:

https://www.williamweisslaw.com/how-does-californias-new-law-on-exhaust-noise-violations-work

No, I don't know how MCs are tested.  What orientation, what distance, throttle manipulation and so forth.  Don't care, I no longer ride an MC.

[Marco]

We don't have an HOA around here and nobody wants one.

You don't really need one, the contractors need only a couple customers who provide an economic incentive to switch to electrified tools and at that point it probably makes economic sense to just use them everywhere.

[Marco]

https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2659316104

"For the U.S. to hit the 90 percent EV target, sales of all new ICE vehicles across the U.S. must cease by 2038 at the latest"

IF the EU sticks to its guns and doesn't economically collapse from other reasons (I really don't think this will break the camel's back, there are however a lot of other overwhelming problems) the ability to make the transition will be visible long before 2038 and it will pull the US along.

It's mostly just a game of chicken with an industry too big to fail, with no one wanted to leave profit on the table if government blinks. If they are all convinced government won't blink, they'll get it done.

[rstofer]

Most of the contractors use really powerful leaf blowers, not the average homeowner style:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Husqvarna-570BTS-66-cc-2-cycle-236-2-MPH-972-CFM-Professional-Gas-Backpack-Leaf-Blower/1000760830

I have no idea how many HP this thing has but we also need to evaluate battery life and weight.  I'm figuring one battery exchange per property or about a dozen on charge at the end of the day.  Maybe the charge rack is inside the trailer.

Time is money, small leaf blowers need not apply.