EV-based road transportation is not viable

[bdunham7]

But those 7 million tires didn't come from BEVs

Probably true for the most part.

- they hadn't been invented in 1998.

Um, not so true.

[rstofer]

I’m just sitting here, laughing at how supposedly intelligent people are so gullible

Or entrenched viewpoints held by the ill-informed    Who seem to read largely conspiracy websites nonsense

How is facing up the hard realities which the early adopters avoid at all costs or “forget” to mention, any form of “conspiracy”?

You loonies.

I had an electric car on a monthly subscription, I could have ditched at any time. I only did when I got fed up with the company supplying the cars. I am now getting a car through work, I have had to go back to petrol for what is hopefully only until May, I can't wait to get back into an electric car again.

What are these things that "we" EV drivers won't talk about?

As I said above, I've been using BEVs for the last 8 years.  Up until this year I also had a Chevy Silverado pickup but I gave it away.  Our only daily driver is the Bolt - that's a fact, not a theory.

For those who want to give BEV technology a shot, go to your local dealer and take a test drive.  See what you really think after having a little experience.  Deal with the facts, not just a bunch of web nonsense.  If you haven't even taken a test drive, how can you have a valid opinion?

Are BEVs a perfect solution?  No!  Are they better than ICE?  Who cares?  I'm a retired EE and BEVs are, primarily, electrical.  Of course I want one!

As to all the surrounding issues (made up or real), who cares?  It's just a car, it gets us to the store and back (less so since COVID)  and that's all I require.

I'm not an evangelist!  I don't care what other people drive.

For our use case, the Bolt is perfect.

[rstofer]

And, in the case of BEVs, the heat and defrost are instantly available.

[rstofer]

But those 7 million tires didn't come from BEVs

Probably true for the most part.

- they hadn't been invented in 1998.

Um, not so true.

Let's just change it to mass produced.  I'm not the least interested in an 1830s experiment.  The EV1 came out in '96 and it seems unlikely the tires would have wound up in the Central Valley of Calif much less with tires only 2 years old.

The Nissan Leaf was the first realistic BEV in 2010.

[nctnico]

Also governments are in tandem improving public transport investing in light rail etc.

yea thats why there was a report on the uk's national news the other day about the threat  of  cutbacks in government funding for public transport,and how  large areas of the population already have no access to it

The evidence is that roadside fast chargers will be the preferred charging of BEVs as power ratings climb not house based charging  hehce this argument about lack of driveway precludes  BEVs flrrs in face of what home  charging studies have shown. Planners see home charging as merely one constitute of the total charging solution. Not the “ only” way to charge BEVs

What evidence is there that people will want to go to a public place and wait while their car is charged?

The only place I would be willing to do that on a regular basis is at home. But then I, unlike many others, have a private driveway.

This all boils down to having supercharger gas-stations that can charge a car as fast as you can fill up with petrol or hydrogen. But this will only work with the next generation of batteries; the solid state ones. How long will the solid state batteries take before the first BEVs are shipped with these type of batteries?

Every now and then I end up at a petrol station in the middle of the night and the less time I spend at such an unsafe place, the better.

[tggzzz]

Also governments are in tandem improving public transport investing in light rail etc.

yea thats why there was a report on the uk's national news the other day about the threat  of  cutbacks in government funding for public transport,and how  large areas of the population already have no access to it

The evidence is that roadside fast chargers will be the preferred charging of BEVs as power ratings climb not house based charging  hehce this argument about lack of driveway precludes  BEVs flrrs in face of what home  charging studies have shown. Planners see home charging as merely one constitute of the total charging solution. Not the “ only” way to charge BEVs

What evidence is there that people will want to go to a public place and wait while their car is charged?

The only place I would be willing to do that on a regular basis is at home. But then I, unlike many others, have a private driveway.

This all boils down to having supercharger gas-stations that can charge a car as fast as you can fill up with petrol or hydrogen. But this will only work with the next generation of batteries; the solid state ones. How long will the solid state batteries take before the first BEVs are shipped with these type of batteries?

Every now and then I end up at a petrol station in the middle of the night and the less time I spend at such an unsafe place, the better.

I really enjoy my visits to petrol stations, and wish I could spend more time there breathing in the pure air.

That's just as believable as any explanation involving magic, or any plan involving a fundamental advance in 5 months and 3 weeks time, or any politician that says "make it so"

When the fundamental advance has occurred, I'll be very happy to reevaluate that!

[tom66]

We'll probably see 500kW charging rate by 2030 or so, but I don't ever (at least without a completely fundamental shift in battery tech) see EV's going beyond this any time soon.

That would represent a reasonably sustained 10-12C charging rate, and would wear any cell that is not designed to accommodate this.  It would also mean the charging rate begins to exceed the peak discharge rate of many of these packs, and so the charge cabling and electronics starts to look bulkier than the drive electronics.  And odd situation to be in, but also a disadvantage in weight and cost.

Charging rates will certainly improve.  In 2012, when Tesla launched the $75k Model S it charged at a peak of 90kW and an average closer to 40kW (10-80%).  Now, VW has the ID.3 which charges at a peak of 120kW and an average of about 70kW.  Hyundai have the Ioniq5 which charges up to 250kW and an average of around 130kW, and Porsche claim the Taycan will soon support 350kW charging with a software update (though that's taking its time, apparently.)

So it's not unbelievable we'll see 500kW soon, and CCS already has accommodations for this kind of charging rate, though the peak install is around 350kW.

More important than headline rate is sustained charging, so for instance the e-Tron might only charge at 150kW, but it sustains that almost to 90%, which is fantastic.  Even at 100% it's charging at 50kW. 

I don't see how this replaces rapid petrol filling, I'm realistic here, road trips will take longer on EVs or this might be a small area of the market that hydrogen carves out (or people will just buy 120kWh cars), but overall I see the balance of being able to charge at home/on the street as exceeding that of rapid filling, but then that's probably based on my mindset.

[rstofer]

How long does a trip to Costco take?  Our local Raley's grocery has a half-dozen stations and you can charge while you shop.

With COVID, fewer people are shopping in person (we have almost EVERYTHING delivered) but the idea is right.  Find some task (like shopping at Lowes or Home Depot) and charge while you shop.  It's telling that the majority of charge stations in my area are at pharmacies.  And they put those in several years ago.  Even Walmart is installing charging stations.  You don't necessarily have to wait for a full charge.

500 kW charging (are they serious?) for a half-dozen cars would take an enormous substation and some medium voltage infrastructure that only utilities and large industrials have.  Such a setup would cost a LOT of money.

[rstofer]

I don't see how this replaces rapid petrol filling, I'm realistic here, road trips will take longer on EVs or this might be a small area of the market that hydrogen carves out (or people will just buy 120kWh cars), but overall I see the balance of being able to charge at home/on the street as exceeding that of rapid filling, but then that's probably based on my mindset.

For that once-in-a-decade long trip, just rent a car that still uses gasoline.  They'll be around for a while.  Or fly and rent a car.

[tom66]

No sorry wont happen "petrol" cars are beneath them in social status.

Not true, I have thought for some time one reasonable option for us would be to keep a diesel car around for long trips and buy a cheaper, shorter range EV.  As long as ICE vehicle usage goes to 10% of what it once was, that's good.

I think now given our circumstances though we will probably just buy a decent long range EV instead.  Servicing a car that is infrequently used is expensive and a hassle, plus it would need insurance and take up space on the driveway.  We'll see how well that goes.  I've got fairly regular access to other EV's and generally not found charging to be a major hassle.

For holidays, we'll still probably rent a car, and I expect that will be ICE, but maybe not.

I am definitely not unique in this, I know lots of EV people who have just one EV and one ICE car, or rent/zipcar the bigger car when they need it.

[MadScientist]

There are plenty of solutions for people who can't charge at home - e.g. in the UK, in some areas every other lamppost on the street has a chargepoint built in

I have an issue with this statement as it gets banded about by the EV fanboys to shut up anyone who says they can't charge up at home. It might work in some areas but its not a solution open to all.

Agreed. Public charging is horribly expensive as well. I'm 80% sure my first non-ICE car will be powered by hydrogen because that is better suitable & cheaper for my use compared to BEV. But first long haul trucking needs to accellerate implementing hydrogen fueling stations. Long haul trucks typically have ranges from 1200km to 2500km on a single tank. There is no way to match that using batteries.

Public Charging in the uk is not “ horribly “ expensive it’s comparable to other countries

Tbd future is high power roadside BEV charging just like current filling stations. In fact the uk current requires all new filing stAtions to add Bev  charging.   Hence as batteries get bigger and accept faster charging , home charging will not be a big factor

[tom66]

Tbd future is high power roadside BEV charging just like current filling stations. In fact the uk current requires all new filing stAtions to add Bev  charging.   Hence as batteries get bigger and accept faster charging , home charging will not be a big factor

I do think you're missing that home charging is super convenient.  Why would I want to take time out of my day to rapid charge my car when I can charge overnight?  I get that you'll need to charge for long trips and the odd unplanned long drive, but all other charging would definitely be preferably done overnight.

[Watth]

I don't see how this replaces rapid petrol filling, I'm realistic here, road trips will take longer on EVs or this might be a small area of the market that hydrogen carves out (or people will just buy 120kWh cars), but overall I see the balance of being able to charge at home/on the street as exceeding that of rapid filling, but then that's probably based on my mindset.

For that once-in-a-decade long trip, just rent a car that still uses gasoline.  They'll be around for a while.  Or fly and rent a car.

Exactly. People want to be able to use EVs exactly as they used ICEVs. The change must also be in the uses. The old model when you could haul you family hundred of km (for vacations or family trips) can evolve to train (I'm European...) + rented vehicle on location. As for the cost, voting accordingly can make it without raising costs or even cheaper.

[Watth]

Yes, this is a good solution for homes with several cars. When I bought my Zoé, I also talked about it with people I know, and most of the time, if they had to renew one of their car, it would be to an EV in addition to keeping an ICE. Especially when one of the drivers works with a company vehicle. And that is with people living in houses where they can easily charge at home.

[MadScientist]

Tbd future is high power roadside BEV charging just like current filling stations. In fact the uk current requires all new filing stAtions to add Bev  charging.   Hence as batteries get bigger and accept faster charging , home charging will not be a big factor

I do think you're missing that home charging is super convenient.  Why would I want to take time out of my day to rapid charge my car when I can charge overnight?  I get that you'll need to charge for long trips and the odd unplanned long drive, but all other charging would definitely be preferably done overnight.

I can only base my comments on a study ( unpublished ) from the grid operator in Ireland where public charging started in 2010 and home evse was provided free. The evidence was that home charging did not turn out to be the primary method which the grid operator expected it to be.

Partly this is because as batteries increased rapidly in capacity thd home charging was taking too long secondly people with two cars often had access issues and other physical restrictions applied

The net result was that fast roadside charging became much more prevalent and in fact thd grid operator under took a massive investment in high power roadside systems.

These days the private sector has taken up this mantle within very large ( 10 plus 100 kw+) charging stations typically in motorway rest  areas or existing filling stations. Furthermore hotels and shops also have begun to install fast chargers as opppsed to low power ( =< 7 kw) charging


Furthermore there has been a huge increase in work installed charging often provided free or at a substantial discount ,

 the statistics suggest that home charging is not a” big “ factor in the decision to buy a BEV.

While one cannot directly compare countries as attitudes differ but the Ireland experience can be generalised.  It should be noted that all public charging was free from 2010 to 2019 whereas home charging was not discounted at all. But even after the introduction of charges the popularity of roadside fast Charging increased.


My point is that a “ fixation “ on charging at home is not actually seen amongst Bev users. Yet it’s “ important “ but it’s not a defining restrictions it seems.

Changes in planning rules will make evse installs almost mandatory on new builds anyway so apartments etc must now factor this in. Lamppost charging has been completely discounted as the lighting wiring is entirely unsuitable to carry the loads especially during lamb operation and equally parking spaces outside houses cannot be reserved for BEVs

The overall effect is that driveway charging will undoubtably remain a “ factor” but not it seems a defining one. People are happy To buy BEVs and rely on high speed chargers it seems

Hence one has too careful not to attach too much importance to “ shibboleths “ that in fact are not bearing out to be 100% true.

What’s also true is an awful lot of people buy cars and increasingly do little annual mileage

[MadScientist]

I don't see how this replaces rapid petrol filling, I'm realistic here, road trips will take longer on EVs or this might be a small area of the market that hydrogen carves out (or people will just buy 120kWh cars), but overall I see the balance of being able to charge at home/on the street as exceeding that of rapid filling, but then that's probably based on my mindset.

For that once-in-a-decade long trip, just rent a car that still uses gasoline.  They'll be around for a while.  Or fly and rent a car.

Exactly. People want to be able to use EVs exactly as they used ICEVs. The change must also be in the uses. The old model when you could haul you family hundred of km (for vacations or family trips) can evolve to train (I'm European...) + rented vehicle on location. As for the cost, voting accordingly can make it without raising costs or even cheaper.

The evidence in Ireland from users surveys is BEV owners significantly increased their annual car mileage as running costs were low. In fact this left the train or bus out of the equation and used the Bev. To such an extent that the capital city authorities would not provide parking concessions to BEVs that other cities provided ( most city public parking is free to BEVs )

Hence the evidence is BEV owners eschew public transport in favour of the car. In Ireland public transport is not great and is seen as “ low rent “ with the exception of light rail solutions

In fact it’s become a concern that overly aiding conversions to BEV is wrong and will result in higher car usage not less. The latest gov strategy is to decline Bev subsidies to make people seriously consider non car options which many young professionals now opting for non car ownership

It should be noted that in Ireland it’s one of the highest annual private car mileage per person nearly 1.5 the European average and higher than the USA average. It’s an extremely car centric country.

I would disagree that people want BEVs to deliver an indentical  experience. Evidence is that changing perspectives , covid , concern over pollution is changing peoples attitudes and younger people see cars on a different way. On the spot car hire  ( often BEV) etc has become very popular amongst urban apartment dwellers who fell the huge cost of owning a private car isvt justified.

[MadScientist]

Tbd future is high power roadside BEV charging just like current filling stations. In fact the uk current requires all new filing stAtions to add Bev  charging.   Hence as batteries get bigger and accept faster charging , home charging will not be a big factor

I do think you're missing that home charging is super convenient.  Why would I want to take time out of my day to rapid charge my car when I can charge overnight?  I get that you'll need to charge for long trips and the odd unplanned long drive, but all other charging would definitely be preferably done overnight.

many domestic systems cannot charge big capacity evse in a reasonable time especially if other loads like water heating etc are concurrent

I’m not denying it’s super convient , we had a daily 130 km commuted so every night the leaf was pliggged in to a 7kw evse from 1am to 6am at 8 cents a kWh !!!  ( this was for nearly 5 years !!)

But that experience is not universal

[MadScientist]

I don't see how this replaces rapid petrol filling, I'm realistic here, road trips will take longer on EVs or this might be a small area of the market that hydrogen carves out (or people will just buy 120kWh cars), but overall I see the balance of being able to charge at home/on the street as exceeding that of rapid filling, but then that's probably based on my mindset.

For that once-in-a-decade long trip, just rent a car that still uses gasoline.  They'll be around for a while.  Or fly and rent a car.

Exactly. People want to be able to use EVs exactly as they used ICEVs. The change must also be in the uses. The old model when you could haul you family hundred of km (for vacations or family trips) can evolve to train (I'm European...) + rented vehicle on location. As for the cost, voting accordingly can make it without raising costs or even cheaper.

As I said the feedback was people used their BEV more then their original ICE including long trips as the running costs were so low. Worrying for regulators was BEVs were increasing private car mileage not reducing it

[MadScientist]

What is abundantly clear is non BEV owners are very unreliable petspectives
on how BEVs will be used even by themselves. Really only examining the BEV ownership usage patterns does a true usage pattern emerge. It’s even worse amongst those not convinced BEVs are for them , these groups almost unfailing present incorrect  usage perspectives , possibly in an attempt at self justication

[CatalinaWOW]

I don't see how this replaces rapid petrol filling, I'm realistic here, road trips will take longer on EVs or this might be a small area of the market that hydrogen carves out (or people will just buy 120kWh cars), but overall I see the balance of being able to charge at home/on the street as exceeding that of rapid filling, but then that's probably based on my mindset.

For that once-in-a-decade long trip, just rent a car that still uses gasoline.  They'll be around for a while.  Or fly and rent a car.

Exactly. People want to be able to use EVs exactly as they used ICEVs. The change must also be in the uses. The old model when you could haul you family hundred of km (for vacations or family trips) can evolve to train (I'm European...) + rented vehicle on location. As for the cost, voting accordingly can make it without raising costs or even cheaper.

Voting appropriately does not change the costs except for marginal differences in efficiency.  It only changes who pays the bill. 

[Watth]

Voting appropriately does not change the costs except for marginal differences in efficiency.  It only changes who pays the bill.

Well duh. Also investing allows more volume, therefore reduced cost.
That's how countries with dense railway network do it.

[Watth]

many domestic systems cannot charge big capacity evse in a reasonable time especially if other loads like water heating etc are concurrent

It depends of the energy needed. For example for a 40 kW.h battery, I can charge it at home in about 12 hours at less than 4kW (because I have an adapted socket - Hager's Witty, which is a licensed copy of Legrand's Green-up). Also there are systems which will manage the charging power in order to limit the max your supplier's breaker can handle (sorry for the weird vocabulary, I don't know the proper terminology in English).

[Watth]

The evidence in Ireland from users surveys is BEV owners significantly increased their annual car mileage as running costs were low. In fact this left the train or bus out of the equation and used the Bev. To such an extent that the capital city authorities would not provide parking concessions to BEVs that other cities provided ( most city public parking is free to BEVs )

Hence the evidence is BEV owners eschew public transport in favour of the car. In Ireland public transport is not great and is seen as “ low rent “ with the exception of light rail solutions

In fact it’s become a concern that overly aiding conversions to BEV is wrong and will result in higher car usage not less. The latest gov strategy is to decline Bev subsidies to make people seriously consider non car options which many young professionals now opting for non car ownership

It should be noted that in Ireland it’s one of the highest annual private car mileage per person nearly 1.5 the European average and higher than the USA average. It’s an extremely car centric country.

I would disagree that people want BEVs to deliver an indentical  experience. Evidence is that changing perspectives , covid , concern over pollution is changing peoples attitudes and younger people see cars on a different way. On the spot car hire  ( often BEV) etc has become very popular amongst urban apartment dwellers who fell the huge cost of owning a private car isvt justified.

Interesting.
I suppose the surveys really considered the drivers' mileage, so that it doesn't count mileage that would be deducted from an ICEV in the same home.
I could understand it as, whether legitimate or not, drivers can have the impression that taking the EV has few environnement effects, as well as the novelty and pleasure to drive an EV (compared to public transports, walking or cycling).
I've never seen free parking for EVs, though. And I don't think that would be a good idea.

[Miyuki]

Interesting.
I suppose the surveys really considered the drivers' mileage, so that it doesn't count mileage that would be deducted from an ICEV in the same home.
I could understand it as, whether legitimate or not, drivers can have the impression that taking the EV has few environnement effects, as well as the novelty and pleasure to drive an EV (compared to public transports, walking or cycling).
I've never seen free parking for EVs, though. And I don't think that would be a good idea.

Free parking and tolls are one of the government incentives to push EVs.
Parking fees can be relatively high in cities like Prague.
I don't have EV now, because it does not make economic sense for me with using the car just a few times a month.
But I can clearly see how I would use it way more often for short trips and other travels that can be easily consolidated into one.
There is that psychological thing about having free or almost free cost per km/mile.
Ane with off-peak electricity or solar panels, you can charge really cheaply.

[rstofer]

Towing capacity?  The 2022 Ford F150 EV pickup has a tow rating of 7700 pounds.

The 2024 Chevy Silverado EV pickup will come in 3 flavors from 8000 pounds to 20,000 pounds:

https://insideevs.com/news/629796/chevrolet-silverado-ev-towing-video/

The original question was probably directed at small sedans like my Chevy Bolt which GM says is unsuitable for towing.  There is anecdotal evidence it will tow around 2000 pounds but there goes the warranty!

Strangest tow vehicle I ever saw was a Rolls Royce!  A hotshot motocross rider owned the car and used it to tow his motorcycles.  You just don't expect to see a trailer ball on a Rolls Royce.